Jesus Resurrection

[leroy]

You can't prove #5, though.

DO you grant all the other 4 points?

 

[paarsurrey]

Source ?

One has to prove that Jesus died on the Cross to make Jesus a god, a tall claim. If one does not prove it then Jesus was near-dead but yet alive and he was not god. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes but we have multiple independent sources that confirm that an exception was made with Jesus.

Pilate didn't consider Jesus a criminal, he didn't have anything against Jesus, so he could have made an exception with Jesus.



The thing is that even if we say that the gospels are fiction for the most part, these 5 historical facts would still stand as historical facts.

1 Jesus death by crusifixtion
2 Jesus burial
3 The empty tomb
4 Post mortem apearances
5 Disciples honestly and sincerly belived in the resurrection

These 5 facts are uncontroversially accepted by the mayority of schoolars including those who claim that the gospels are just legends.

The point is that there are no good naturalistic explanations for these 5 facts. And there are good reasons to accept each fact as true.

"3 The empty tomb" Unquote.
The empty tomb just tells that Jesus got recovered from the injuries inflicted on him on the Cross and due to which he got near-dead but very much alive.
When Jesus got recovered enough that he could go somewhere else he came out. It was dangerous to remain there for long lest the Jews got hold of him again. Right, please?

Regards

 

[leroy]

One has to prove that Jesus died on the Cross to make Jesus a god, a tall claim. If one does not prove it then Jesus was near-dead but yet alive and he was not god. Right, please?

Regards

I am asking for a source that indicates that the water and blood that came out of Jesus indicates that he was alive

 

[leroy]

"3 The empty tomb" Unquote.
The empty tomb just tells that Jesus got recovered from the injuries inflicted on him on the Cross and due to which he got near-dead but very much alive.
When Jesus got recovered enough that he could go somewhere else he came out. It was dangerous to remain there for long lest the Jews got hold of him again. Right, please?

Regards

Well that is my point, as a naturalist you have to proclaim wild, unlikely and unproven “theories”it is still a fact that something unusual that defies human comprehension happened 2,000 years ago

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The fact that you have to proclaim wild and unproven conspiracy theories proves that naturalism lacks any valid explanation.

I'm a nurse. I'm sorry if I can come up with a few valid scenarios. People have been buried alive for millennia, which means they are in no position to declare death unless the cause was obviously fatal, like beheading or something.

People usually died on the cross, there is only 1 known case of someone who survived.

And I bet that person was taken off early too.

Why wouldn’t James witness the burial of his brother? Most brothers witness the burial of his brother. Or in any case why wouldn’t Mary the mother of Jesus tell James that Jesus didn’t die?

Do you have a verse? Didn't think so. Everyone ran off. Mary might have witnessed it, but the apostles didn't care about women and do everything to downplay their participation possible. Since you clearly believe Mary witnessed Jesus' death, do you also admit she and her other children thought Jesus was mentally ill? She wasn't seeing a messiah sacrifice himself. She was watching a child who had been obstinate since childhood finally spiral out of control. There are lots of unpleasant things in the bible. I find it strange that people only want to believe some things, the things that support unsupported doctrine, but ignore the verses that call the entire stories into question.

And as I said before, an injured nearly dead Christ would have not impressed anybody.

People were impressed Jesus could tell people where fish are. It's easy if you are coming from the surrounding hills, much like how people can use drones today to get a higher perspective and see the entire school of fish. No divinity is required, just a change of perspective.

People also had other miracle workers in that time and place. They were impressed by those people too. We're not dealing with very discerning people here. I mean, Jesus was impressive because "he spoke with authority". So, what the bible is telling us is that Jesus won over people just for using the active voice instead of the passive. Whoop-de-do.

Really? Who survived being nailed to a tree?

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-survive-a-crucifixion

If Josephus is telling the truth (and I thought there was a picture of a nail in someone's ankles somewhere), then the key to surviving crucifixion is to be let down early, which both Jesus and Josephus' guy had been.

The Resurrection happened.

Even if Jesus "woke back up", it doesn't prove anything supernatural took place.

No, that probably did not happen. That is what this thread is about. There do not appear to be any credible witnesses for it.

But if there are no credible witnesses to his death (again, beheading would've made sure, as not even Jesus attempted to heal John the Baptist), then it's possible Jesus recovered from injuries only assumed to be fatal.

The Christians are the witnesses, I guess it's subjective?

Which Christians went back in time to witness it? He had Jewish followers and the odd gentile here and there. Christianity was labeled such well after his death.

But there is a reason, they said, either Jesus is using the power from Satan, or such.

I thought Jesus' sheep would know his voice? We are to trust witnesses who already were jumping to different conclusions?

Or perhaps he could not remember all of the details on the story that he made up.

Yes, where is the witness testimony of the people who saw the light or heard the voice?

Anybody convinced of anything yet?

I'm convinced, so far, that if this were Law and Order, the DA would be crying by now.

You have witnesses who weren't in the vicinity.

You have witnesses such as the Jewish clergy who wanted everyone to believe Jesus was dead. We don't have witness statements from said clergy regarding that or the secret meetings with Judas no one else witnessed either.

You have demon-possessed witnesses, but it is claimed demons are liars.

You have claims that humans wrote per God's inspired dictation while also claiming humans are lying weasels.

You have a vague cause of death. Sure, asphyxiation would be the likely candidate, given the mode of execution, but there is no record of anyone checking to see WHY he "died so early". He was neither cremated nor buried in a grave. Instead, he is placed in cool rock room with access to oxygen. His body is cared for by women with little or no supervision.

You have a centurion who would have motive to game the system.

You have Roman guards who can't say what happened really. Guards were led by centurions. See above. Said centurion had already bragged to Jesus that his soldiers will do anything he says.

You have a round stone rolling away, which is a miracle, but apparently not when it was rolled into place to begin with.

You have a supposed twin brother of Jesus who can play Jesus to anyone who didn't see him up close. Jesus is said to be in different places. His injuries would've precluded long journeys. With a twin brother, those issues are easily resolved.

You have a procurator or whatever the hell he was threatened with Caesar by some Jewish clergy. Said procurator, known for atrociously inhuman behavior, even by ROME'S standards, doesn't just kill them all and write a nice post-it to Caesar about how mean they were to him. After all, he had bigger fish to fry with all the Jewish and Syrian and other problems going around. He didn't need some clergy telling him what to do. It's not like the Romans didn't put puppets into leadership positions in Judea. Puppets who tried to cut their strings were executed or worse. All he had to do was claim they were zealots plotting an insurrection and he'd be in the clear.

'Surely the proof of the pudding is in the eating?'

Cosby found out.

To have such evidence as the spread of this truth by the witnesses of that time is really denying the only proof we have of anything which has happened in history.

If a witness said something happened but in the story, that person (not the witness) was alone or not with the witness, what you get are MANY biblical stories.

In the UK it is said that the Roman Soldiers whose legion were stationed at a place called 'Chester' wrote in their official records as being the legion the ones who put Christ to death.

Where is this record? Can we trace people stationed in the Middle East to Britain?

Do you know any man if lying would give the credit for the power they had to another?

The apostles. They tried to downplay their egos by saying they were doing it for or because of Jesus or God, but they acted as though they were the ones you should be grateful to, perhaps with room and board.

Would you spend the rest of your life professing a lie and being thrown in prison or put to death?

Yes. Some people want to be caught or killed because the public assumption of martyrdom will make them practically immortal. You believe them even NOW, centuries later.

Source ?

Dead people don't bleed, for starters. Your heart still has to function for blood to gush out. He was stabbed, per the story, PRECISELY because he wasn't fully dead yet. Ask yourself if Jesus was verified to have these standards:

Signs
Signs of death or strong indications that a warm-blooded animal is no longer alive are:

• Respiratory arrest (no breathing)
• Cardiac arrest (no pulse)
• Brain death (no neuronal activity)
• Pallor mortis, paleness which happens in the 15–120 minutes after death
• Livor mortis, a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body
• Algor mortis, the reduction in body temperature following death. This is generally a steady decline until matching ambient temperature
• Rigor mortis, the limbs of the corpse become stiff (Latin rigor) and difficult to move or manipulate
• Decomposition, the reduction into simpler forms of matter, accompanied by a strong, unpleasant odor.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nice way of brush off all the sources. Even if i give you the point on thallus, still all the other sources confirm what the witness/christian sources already claimed. That jesus was crucified under pilate, that he was burried, and that his followers percieved him as a magic man and wer persecuted for it.

Dam, i made a touch down home run on you with this one, didnt i?

Even though these sources DENY the magic and resurrection of Jesus, they atleast confirm his crucifixion, burial and followers persecutions.

Your in hot water now buddy, lol.

Those dumb *** hostile enemies of christians would have been alot smarter if they would have just said

"Jesus was not crucified, he was not burried, his followers wer NOT persecuted and martyred for a claim of a resurrection."

There are NO SOURCES saying the apostles(witneses) wer NOT persecuted or myrtered. None.

They do not help your claim here at all. The topic is the resurrection. Not whether or not Jesus was crucified. If I was disputing that then those would have been of some value. Please try to keep up. This is not a hard concept to understand.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I can prove these 5 facts

1 Jesus death by crusifixtion
2 Jesus burial
3 The empty tomb
4 The disciples claimed to have seen the risen Jesus
5 Disciples honestly and sincerly belived in the resurrection


My suggestion is that the resurrection is the best explanation for these 5 facts.

You may find evidence for 1, you cannot even come close to proving the rest. You do not seem to understand the concept of what a "fact" is in the first place.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Here is the thing; I can (in principle) have an hallucination, a dream, a vision etc. And in my delusion I might believe that it was a real experience and die for that believe.

I can also invent a lie, promote the lie and convince others that I had a divine experience, I can convince others that my experience was real, they might trust me and die for the lie that I invented.

Both scenarios are possible and realistic

But it would be almost impossible for me to invent the lie, and then die for a lie that I myself invented, obviously I would know that it is a lie, so why would I die in the name of a lie that I myself invented?

It might be impossible for you to die for a lie, it is clearly not so for everyone. I have given examples of people that either invented a story or were severely deluded. At that point it is hard to tell the difference. Not only did those people die for their beliefs, others did so as well. One can't apply how one would act himself to humanity as a whole.

By the way, I could not invent a false belief and die for it either. That would only support my claim to be "sane".

 

[paarsurrey]

Nice way of brush off all the sources. Even if i give you the point on thallus, still all the other sources confirm what the witness/christian sources already claimed. That jesus was crucified under pilate, that he was burried, and that his followers percieved him as a magic man and wer persecuted for it.

Dam, i made a touch down home run on you with this one, didnt i?

Even though these sources DENY the magic and resurrection of Jesus, they atleast confirm his crucifixion, burial and followers persecutions.

Your in hot water now buddy, lol.

Those dumb *** hostile enemies of christians would have been alot smarter if they would have just said

"Jesus was not crucified, he was not burried, his followers wer NOT persecuted and martyred for a claim of a resurrection."

There are NO SOURCES saying the apostles(witneses) wer NOT persecuted or myrtered. None.

I am a believer of Jesus that he was a truthful prophet/messenger of G-d, not a son of god or god, in literal and physical terms.

Jesus was not buried in the tomb of Arimathea, he was just put there for treatment by his friends. Had Jesus been buried there,since he was Jew, he would have been washed (tahara*) first and the funeral service prayer** as per the customs of Jews had been performed.
No such thing was done as such services are not performed for a living human being.
Sorry, Jesus was not buried after the event of Crucifixion, in which he survived, so there was no need of any burial.
Jesus did not die so there is no question of his resurrection from the dead.

Regards
_______________
*Overview of Jewish Customs
"When a Jew dies, the body is prepared for burial through a specific procedure known as the Tahara that is performed by other Jews. This process includes washing the body physically, a ritual washing through the pouring of water over the body"
An Overview Guide to Handling Jewish Dead | Kavod v'Nichum - Jewish Funerals, Burial and Mourning

** "Closing prayer: At the end of the service, the memorial prayer El Malei Rachamim (“God is filled with mercy”) is often chanted. This prayer asks a merciful God to care for the soul under sheltering wings of peace."
Jewish Traditions Regarding Death | Sinai Memorial Chapel

 

[leroy]

You may find evidence for 1, you cannot even come close to proving the rest. You do not seem to understand the concept of what a "fact" is in the first place.

Again we have multiple early documents that confirm those facts, if you apply the same criteria that you would apply for any claim from ancient history you would not apply such a high standard of evidence.

 

[leroy]

It might be impossible for you to die for a lie, it is clearly not so for everyone. I have given examples of people that either invented a story or were severely deluded. At that point it is hard to tell the difference. Not only did those people die for their beliefs, others did so as well. One can't apply how one would act himself to humanity as a whole.

By the way, I could not invent a false belief and die for it either. That would only support my claim to be "sane".

You haven’t provided any example of someone who died for something that they know is a lie.

 

[paarsurrey]

Well that is my point, as a naturalist you have to proclaim wild, unlikely and unproven “theories”it is still a fact that something unusual that defies human comprehension happened 2,000 years ago

I am not a naturalist, I belong to Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam.
It is on a Christian who wants to carve a god out of a mythical story that never happened as narrated/detailed by the Pauline Christianity. Myths don't make one god.

Regards

 

[leroy]

I am a believer of Jesus that he was a truthful prophet/messenger of G-d, not a son of god or god, in literal and physical terms.

Jesus was not buried in the tomb of Arimathea, he was just put there for treatment by his friends. Had Jesus been buried there,since he was Jew, he would have been washed (tahara*) first and the funeral service prayer** as per the customs of Jews had been performed.
No such thing was done as such services are not performed for a living human being.
Sorry, Jesus was not buried after the event of Crucifixion, in which he survived, so there was no need of any burial.
Jesus did not die so there is no question of his resurrection from the dead.

Regards
_______________
*Overview of Jewish Customs
"When a Jew dies, the body is prepared for burial through a specific procedure known as the Tahara that is performed by other Jews. This process includes washing the body physically, a ritual washing through the pouring of water over the body"
An Overview Guide to Handling Jewish Dead | Kavod v'Nichum - Jewish Funerals, Burial and Mourning

** "Closing prayer: At the end of the service, the memorial prayer El Malei Rachamim (“God is filled with mercy”) is often chanted. This prayer asks a merciful God to care for the soul under sheltering wings of peace."
Jewish Traditions Regarding Death | Sinai Memorial Chapel

So just to be clear:

Arimathea and his friends hilled Jesus in secret? Where the close relatives and followers of Jesus aware of this secret?

Then Jesus despite being severely injured, decided to play a joke his disciples and went to various places like Galilee, Jerusalem, Damascus, the road to Damascus just for fun? Is this your view?

 

[paarsurrey]

I am asking for a source that indicates that the water and blood that came out of Jesus indicates that he was alive

It is on the Pauline Christianity people to prove that in all circumstances when blood and water gush forth from a person, that is a proof of death and there is no exception to it. After all one needs to present extraordinary proofs to make god out of a weak human being, not just assumptions. Jesus was born of a woman, a human being never a god or son of god, please.

Regards

 

[Subduction Zone]

Again we have multiple early documents that confirm those facts, if you apply the same criteria that you would apply for any claim from ancient history you would not apply such a high standard of evidence.

Really? Where? Also, you need a bit stronger standards than the criteria for ancient history. There is a saying you should learn"

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you knew me well and I claimed that I had just bought a dog you would probably believe me. That is an every day claim and does not require much evidence to support it. If I told you that I bought a dog that can fly you would probably demand a lot more than just my say so. In the same way to claim you have evidence for Jesus's resurrection you need to have much stronger evidence than one needs for the existence of Alexander the Great or some other historical figure, yet the evidence tends to be far weaker than that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You haven’t provided any example of someone who died for something that they know is a lie.

Do I need to? And please note that I have not used your strawman. Do you deny that Jim Jones died for his beliefs or that David Koresh died for his? I can easily provide evidence that they did. Do you think that their beliefs were correct?

 

[paarsurrey]

So just to be clear:

Arimathea and his friends hilled Jesus in secret? Where the close relatives and followers of Jesus aware of this secret?

Then Jesus despite being severely injured, decided to play a joke his disciples and went to various places like Galilee, Jerusalem, Damascus, the road to Damascus just for fun? Is this your view?

If Jesus was god and he was to resurrect from the real dead, then there was no need of any secrecy. All the sheep including the Jews would have watched him getting resurrected from the dead before their eyes. The secrecy shows that Jesus was just a human being, and his friends knew that he is to be treated for the injuries to survive, hence the secrecy.

Regards

 

[leroy]

Do I need to? And please note that I have not used your strawman. Do you deny that Jim Jones died for his beliefs or that David Koresh died for his? I can easily provide evidence that they did. Do you think that their beliefs were correct?

I know next to nothing about these guys.

But my guess is that they didn’t die for something that they knew it was a lie. ¿am I wrong?

 

[leroy]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

My claim is that Jesus was buried (or entombed) this is not an extraordinary claim

needs for the existence of Alexander the Great or some other historical figure, yet the evidence tends to be far weaker than that.

For example, Can you prove that Alexander the Grate was born in Macedonia?