Jesus Resurrection

[Subduction Zone]

I know next to nothing about these guys.

But my guess is that they didn’t die for something that they knew it was a lie. ¿am I wrong?

Hard to say. They were extremely delusional. They died for something that everyone else knew was wrong. That would appear to be the same as the "martyrs" that you like to refer to.

 

[Subduction Zone]

My claim is that Jesus was buried (or entombed) this is not an extraordinary claim

In this case it is. He was crucified by the Romans. They did not normally take people down immediately upon death:

" Corpses of the crucified were typically left on the crosses to decompose and be eaten by animals."


Crucifixion - Wikipedia

For example, Can you prove that Alexander the Grate was born in Macedonia?

Me personally? No, I could find evidence for it if I cared. Does it really matter? Why do you ask? Please note that is not a very extraordinary claim. It does not bear a heavy burden of proof. Try to keep in mind the "I bought a dog" and "I bought a dog that flies" claims.

 

[Jollybear]

They do not help your claim here at all. The topic is the resurrection. Not whether or not Jesus was crucified. If I was disputing that then those would have been of some value. Please try to keep up. This is not a hard concept to understand.

The hostile sources i gave you here

Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible? | Cold Case Christianity

These are not christian and there early.

Heres what they reveal

"Jesus was born and lived in Palestine. He was born, supposedly, to a virgin and had an earthly father who was a carpenter. He was a teacher who taught that through repentance and belief, all followers would become brothers and sisters. He led the Jews away from their beliefs. He was a wise man who claimed to be God and the Messiah. He had unusual magical powers and performed miraculous deeds. He healed the lame. He accurately predicted the future. He was persecuted by the Jews for what He said, betrayed by Judah Iskarioto. He was beaten with rods, forced to drink vinegar and wear a crown of thorns. He was crucified on the eve of the Passover and this crucifixion occurred under the direction of Pontius Pilate, during the time of Tiberius. On the day of His crucifixion, the sky grew dark and there was an earthquake. Afterward, He was buried in a tomb and the tomb was later found to be empty. He appeared to His disciples resurrected from the grave and showed them His wounds. These disciples then told others Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Jesus’ disciples and followers upheld a high moral code. One of them was named Matthai. The disciples were also persecuted for their faith but were martyred without changing their claims. They met regularly to worship Jesus, even after His death"

Thats a summery of what they reveal.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The hostile sources i gave you here

Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible? | Cold Case Christianity

These are not christian and there early.

Heres what they reveal

"Jesus was born and lived in Palestine. He was born, supposedly, to a virgin and had an earthly father who was a carpenter. He was a teacher who taught that through repentance and belief, all followers would become brothers and sisters. He led the Jews away from their beliefs. He was a wise man who claimed to be God and the Messiah. He had unusual magical powers and performed miraculous deeds. He healed the lame. He accurately predicted the future. He was persecuted by the Jews for what He said, betrayed by Judah Iskarioto. He was beaten with rods, forced to drink vinegar and wear a crown of thorns. He was crucified on the eve of the Passover and this crucifixion occurred under the direction of Pontius Pilate, during the time of Tiberius. On the day of His crucifixion, the sky grew dark and there was an earthquake. Afterward, He was buried in a tomb and the tomb was later found to be empty. He appeared to His disciples resurrected from the grave and showed them His wounds. These disciples then told others Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Jesus’ disciples and followers upheld a high moral code. One of them was named Matthai. The disciples were also persecuted for their faith but were martyred without changing their claims. They met regularly to worship Jesus, even after His death"

Thats a summery of what they reveal.

Those are not "hostile" sources. The site Cold Case Christianity makes the laughable error of calling the gospels "reliable eyewitness accounts" .

At any rate the discussion here is not whether Jesus existed or not. The discussion is the resurrection, and no reliable evidence has been given for that at all.

 

[lukethethird]

Do I need to? And please note that I have not used your strawman. Do you deny that Jim Jones died for his beliefs or that David Koresh died for his? I can easily provide evidence that they did. Do you think that their beliefs were correct?

Are these valid examples? What was Jim Jones mental state at the time? Was it necessary to attack the Branch Davidian community with tanks? Their beliefs are only part of their stories.

 

[lukethethird]

My claim is that Jesus was buried (or entombed) this is not an extraordinary claim

By "buried", do you mean according to scripture as Paul claims?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Are these valid examples? What was Jim Jones mental state at the time? Was it necessary to attack the Branch Davidian community with tanks? Their beliefs are only part of the story.

The reaction to Koresh was overkill. But that does not mean that he was not nuttier than a Clark Bar.

And yes, they are both valid examples since if either of those two were sane they would not have died for their cause. The claim was that people will not die for a "lie". I used scare quotes since what constitutes a lie was never explained. Too often I see people believing in what is obviously wrong called believing a lie. By that definition anyone that believes the Genesis myths could be called a liar. I am willing to say that they are very deluded.

 

[Subduction Zone]

By "buried", do you mean according to scripture as Paul claims?

I do believe that Spanish is @leroy 's first language. His error is minor and understandable.

 

[lukethethird]

I do believe that Spanish is @leroy 's first language. His error is minor and understandable.

No error, the question is what it is. Paul's "buried" or the gospel rendition. I thought of a third, the Apostles Creed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No error, the question is what it is. Paul's "buried" or the gospel rendition.

Buried means placed in the ground and covered with dirt. That is not what happened according to the gospel accounts.

 

[lukethethird]

The reaction to Koresh was overkill. But that does not mean that he was not nuttier than a Clark Bar.

The government attacked the civilian community with tanks while David Koresh was portrayed as the nutbar, as if he and the rest had it coming to them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The government attacked the civilian community with tanks while David Koresh was portrayed as the nutbar, as if they had it coming to them.

Not quite. And calling it attacking withstand is not accurate either. That implies artilllery, they used massive amounts of teargas. And the armored vehicles allowed them to I knock down walls. But the fire was started by the Branch Davidians. Investigation of the survivors is where I get my nut job claim from.

 

[lukethethird]

Buried means placed in the ground and covered with dirt. That is not what happened according to the gospel accounts.

That's right, Paul stated that Jesus was buried and so does the Apostle's Creed, the gospels say Jesus was placed in a tomb. I was asking Leroy if he was referring to Paul's version of events or not. Maybe I wasn't clear on that.

more accurately: Paul says Christ was buried.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's right, Paul stated that Jesus was buried and so does the Apostle's Creed, the gospels say he was placed in a tomb. I was asking Leroy if he was referring to Paul's version of events or not. Maybe I wasn't clear on that.

That is true. I should ease up a bit on the use of that term as well.

 

[Jollybear]

Those are not "hostile" sources. The site Cold Case Christianity makes the laughable error of calling the gospels "reliable eyewitness accounts" .

At any rate the discussion here is not whether Jesus existed or not. The discussion is the resurrection, and no reliable evidence has been given for that at all.

Yes, they are sources that are anti christian. They do not believe Jesus was mesiah or God, or did miracles by God. They dont believe jesus rose from death.

But, they afirm the place he was born, his claims to be mesiah and God. His crucifixion, and placing in a tomb and that his apostles claimed he rose and then they afirm they wer persecuted and myrtered.

Your severely downplaying this.

 

[Jollybear]

The reaction to Koresh was overkill. But that does not mean that he was not nuttier than a Clark Bar.

And yes, they are both valid examples since if either of those two were sane they would not have died for their cause. The claim was that people will not die for a "lie". I used scare quotes since what constitutes a lie was never explained. Too often I see people believing in what is obviously wrong called believing a lie. By that definition anyone that believes the Genesis myths could be called a liar. I am willing to say that they are very deluded.

No, the claim is no one will die for what they KNOW is a lie. Get it straght already.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, they are sources that are anti christian. They do not believe Jesus was mesiah or God, or did miracles by God. They dont believe jesus rose from death.

But, they afirm the place he was born, his claims to be mesiah and God. His crucifixion, and placing in a tomb and that his apostles claimed he rose and then they afirm they wer persecuted and myrtered.

Your severely downplaying this.

Where did you get that idea from? That first source was clearly a Christian source. They may have quoted non-Christian sources from the past, but your source was clearly not "anti Christian". Perhaps you could see what Iron Chariots has to say:

Iron Chariots

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, the claim is no one will die for what they KNOW is a lie. Get it straght already.

That was your strawman from the start. Don't accuse others of not getting it straight.

 

[Jollybear]

That was your strawman from the start. Don't accuse others of not getting it straight.

And thats hypocrisy because your using a strawman.

The claim was never, ever, people wont die for lies. Because people do die for lies.

But, people dont die for what they KNOW are lies. Thats the claim.

 

[Jollybear]

Where did you get that idea from? That first source was clearly a Christian source. They may have quoted non-Christian sources from the past, but your source was clearly not "anti Christian". Perhaps you could see what Iron Chariots has to say:

Iron Chariots

That was my point. The sources they quoted wer anti christian and they quoted them verbatum.