Jesus Resurrection

[Subduction Zone]

And thats hypocrisy because your using a strawman.

The claim was never, ever, people wont die for lies. Because people do die for lies.

But, people dont die for what they KNOW are lies. Thats the claim.

The problem is that you are thinking of sane people. Events that you would know are lies may not be for those that are off their rocker a bit. That is why I used examples of people that should have known that they were terribly wrong and yet they still died for those beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That was my point. The sources they quoted wer anti christian and they quoted them verbatum.

Quoting them "vebatum" is worthless if taken out of context or done so in a misleading manner. That is why it is often better to go to the sides with those beliefs and link them. Not someone that is likely to mislead others. As I have pointed out before the Bible says at least 12 times that "there is no God".

 

[Jollybear]

The problem is that you are thinking of sane people. Events that you would know are lies may not be for those that are off their rocker a bit. That is why I used examples of people that should have known that they were terribly wrong and yet they still died for those beliefs.

Ok...dive DEEPER then. Did David and jim KNOW there beliefs wer wrong? And what wer there beliefs?

 

[Jollybear]

Quoting them "vebatum" is worthless if taken out of context or done so in a misleading manner. That is why it is often better to go to the sides with those beliefs and link them. Not someone that is likely to mislead others. As I have pointed out before the Bible says at least 12 times that "there is no God".

They quote them in large pieces. What good would it do to quote all there none relevant sections?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok...dive DEEPER then. Did David and jim KNOW there beliefs wer wrong? And what wer there beliefs?

It is hard to say. They should have known that they were wrong. David Koresh believed that he was a prophet of God and had a thing for underage girls:

David Koresh - Wikipedia

Jim Jones also seemed to think that he was some sort of prophet:

Jim Jones - Wikipedia

A sane person would have known that they were wrong. We can't know the inner workings of these people's minds.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They quote them in large pieces. What good would it do to quote all there none relevant sections?

But again, they are pointless for this discussion. None of them support the resurrection and we are not debating whether Jesus existed or not. That makes them a Red Herring at best.

 

[Jollybear]

It is hard to say. They should have known that they were wrong. David Koresh believed that he was a prophet of God and had a thing for underage girls:

David Koresh - Wikipedia

Jim Jones also seemed to think that he was some sort of prophet:

Jim Jones - Wikipedia

A sane person would have known that they were wrong. We can't know the inner workings of these people's minds.

Ok, so, they believed they wer prophets.

So now, if they KNEW that belief was false, why would they die for it? And further, if they knew it was false, then they would not have believed they wer prophets then.

 

[Jollybear]

But again, they are pointless for this discussion. None of them support the resurrection and we are not debating whether Jesus existed or not. That makes them a Red Herring at best.

Wrong.....you asked for sources other then the bible, i mention the church fathers, you want ones not christian. So i give you anti christian sources. Still, not enough.

Its not a red herring. This is very relavent. Because you see, those anti christian sources reveal that the apostles would have KNOWN this was a lie, if it was.

Now do you see the conundrum your in?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok, so, they believed they wer prophets.

So now, if they KNEW that belief was false, why would they die for it? And further, if they knew it was false, then they would not have believed they wer prophets then.

Once again you are using incorrect standards. You are asking what a same person would do.

 

[Jollybear]

Once again you are using incorrect standards. You are asking what a same person would do.

I dont believe these kind of people you mention EXIST.

If you know your wrong, then you wont believe your right.

That dont exist. Its not logical.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wrong.....you asked for sources other then the bible, i mention the church fathers, you want ones not christian. So i give you anti christian sources. Still, not enough.

Its not a red herring. This is very relavent. Because you see, those anti christian sources reveal that the apostles would have KNOWN this was a lie, if it was.

Now do you see the conundrum your in?

For the resurrection. And even as evidence for Jesus your sources are very weak. None of them deal with people that saw Jesus that were non-believers, they only say that the Christians were a group that followed Christ and how he was crucified.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I dont believe these kind of people you mention EXIST.

If you know your wrong, then you wont believe your right.

That dont exist. Its not logical.

What do you mean? I gave you two solid examples of such people.

And once again you make the same error that you keep making. You are thinking of sane people.

 

[Jollybear]

For the resurrection. And even as evidence for Jesus your sources are very weak. None of them deal with people that saw Jesus that were non-believers, they only say that the Christians were a group that followed Christ and how he was crucified.

Well of course they wer non believers, hence anti christian source.

But, there wer believers AND none believers that jesus appeared too.

The apostles. Thomas didnt believe UNTIL he appeared to him.

Paul didnt believe UNTIL he appeared.

 

[Jollybear]

What do you mean? I gave you two solid examples of such people.

And once again you make the same error that you keep making. You are thinking of sane people.

Jim and david arent examples.

Did jim KNOW he was wrong, and yet believed he was right?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Jim and david arent examples.

Did jim KNOW he was wrong, and yet believed he was right?

Why not? They are perfect examples. You keep asking unreasonable questions and do not like it when they are answered.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well of course they wer non believers, hence anti christian source.

But, there wer believers AND none believers that jesus appeared too.

The apostles. Thomas didnt believe UNTIL he appeared to him.

Paul didnt believe UNTIL he appeared.

You still do not know how to use sources properly. By your standards the Bible does claim that "there is no God" twelve times over. If you want to make a claim you should not use biased sources.

 

[Jollybear]

Why not? They are perfect examples. You keep asking unreasonable questions and do not like it when they are answered.

Unreasonable questions? Lol, my goodness. These are the most important questions in this debate.

You have not answered.

If jim knew he was wrong, did he believe he was right? And if yes, HOW?

 

[Jollybear]

You still do not know how to use sources properly. By your standards the Bible does claim that "there is no God" twelve times over. If you want to make a claim you should not use biased sources.

Saying the bible says there is no God is not like quoting huge sections from anti christian sources.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Unreasonable questions? Lol, my goodness. These are the most important questions in this debate.

You have not answered.

If jim knew he was wrong, did he believe he was right? And if yes, HOW?

Of course I have answered. You simply do not like the answers. Your questions have been answered. When you ask them again you will get the same answers.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Saying the bible says there is no God is not like quoting huge sections from anti christian sources.

They don't quote "huge sections" since there are not huge sections that exist. There are only passing mentions of Jesus.

 

[Jollybear]

Of course I have answered. You simply do not like the answers. Your questions have been answered. When you ask them again you will get the same answers.

No, you havent answered.