Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[Nova2216]

I guess you crossed out Luke 3:16 and Acts 1:5 from your Bible? Wouldn't Rev 22:19 apply to you?

Actually it wouldn't. Revelation is God's final dealing with the Jews, His completer fulfillment of the promises He made to them in the OT. As a born again son of God you have already passed judgment and been found as righteous as God Himself (Rom 3:22). You will have been gathered together with Christ and will be with him forevermore before the events of Revelation begin (1 Thess 4:13-19) so no worries for either you or me. I guess that brings us back to the original topic, i.e. Jesus did a complete job when he said, "it is finished." Our salvation was secured at that moment. Of course if people want to add to their salvation, it won't hurt (at least not in the overall scheme of things). It won't help, but it won't hurt, so go for it if you want.

Actually the Lord is dealing with the 7 churches of Asia in the book of Revelation.

What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (Rev.1:11).


28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


***


Question - How do sinners get INTO CHRIST?

Baptized INTO CHRIST (Rom.6:3-6).

So BEFORE baptism one is outside of Christ and lost (2Tim.2:10).

...who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (Eph.1:3).

 

[e.r.m.]

Heb 9:9-10,

9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.​

If that doesn't say that water baptism was merely a type or figure pointing to the real deal in holy spirit (as both John the Baptist and Jesus said), I don't know how to read English.

There's nothing here that addresses baptism in water in Jesus name. You have to infer to make any sort of connection. That is the "by grace alone, through faith alone" playbook, not the text of scripture.

 

[rrobs]

Rob, please answer these questions.

Does the church you attend practice one baptism or two baptisms?

I know you believe and practice a Spirit Baptism.

Does the church you attend practice water baptism also?

Thanks

We don't actually "practice" any type of baptism. We just are baptized in holy spirit the moment we repent by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead.

 

[rrobs]

There's nothing here that addresses baptism in water in Jesus name. You have to infer to make any sort of connection. That is the "by grace alone, through faith alone" playbook, not the text of scripture.

I think the main point of Hebrews 9 is the symbolic nature of the things in the OT and how Jesus introduced the "real deal." That of course would include the symbolic "divers washings." The word "washings" is the Greek word "baptismos." If that, together with two scriptures that clearly say Jesus would baptize in holy spirit instead of water, is not enough for you to see that water has been replaced by the infinitely more powerful holy spirit, then I don't know what more to say.

Like it or not, you were baptized in holy spirit when you were born again. That is your salvation. If water makes you feel good, go for it, but it won't make you any more saved than your baptism in holy spirit.

God bless

 

[Nova2216]

We don't actually "practice" any type of baptism. We just are baptized in holy spirit the moment we repent by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead.

Are you telling me that your church does not baptize anyone in water?

 

[Nova2216]

We don't actually "practice" any type of baptism. We just are baptized in holy spirit the moment we repent by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead.

So your church does not believe in faith alone / grace alone salvation.

B/c you believe and teach -

baptized in holy spirit + repent + Confessing + Believing

Rob said -"We just are baptized in holy spirit the moment we repent by Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead."

 

[e.r.m.]

I think the main point of Hebrews 9 is the symbolic nature of the things in the OT and how Jesus introduced the "real deal." That of course would include the symbolic "divers washings." The word "washings" is the Greek word "baptismos." If that, together with two scriptures that clearly say Jesus would baptize in holy spirit instead of water, is not enough for you to see that water has been replaced by the infinitely more powerful holy spirit, then I don't know what more to say.

Again, you are inferring. You talked about adding to Romans 10:9, you are seriously adding to Hebrews, things that it does not say itself. You are filling in gaps where you have not the authority. Actually you are creating gaps where there are none and then filling them in.
Proof in your words
"I think the main point of Hebrews 9 is the symbolic nature of the things in the OT and how..."
What you think about Hebrews does not fulfill the scriptural requirement to establish as fact what you're saying.
You're taking a passage about the shadow of things and indiscriminately applying it to baptism in water in Jesus's name and baptism with the Holy Spirit, on your own. I understand it is the "by grace alone, through faith alone" way to be comfortable with such loose associations. But that is also why I keep repeating that this paradigm is only good from afar, and if you don't get specific, or else it falls apart. There is no scripture that "states" what you are stating. John baptized with water, Jesus did end up baptizing with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 and in Acs 10, as the only two times mentioned in scripture, and Jesus commanded his followers to baptize others in water in His name. This is completely unavoidable as is seen being done in Acts 8:36-39 & Acts 10:47-48. This was a command Matthew 28:19 being followed given by Jesus himself.

Like it or not, you were baptized in holy spirit when you were born again. That is your salvation. If water makes you feel good, go for it, but it won't make you any more saved than your baptism in holy spirit.

God bless

None of Jesus's followers in the Bible ever went around telling people, You are saved through "baptism with the Holy Spirit". This is one of the many things that is taught in the "by grace alone through, faith alone" manual that is not found in scriptures.

 

[rrobs]

Are you telling me that your church does not baptize anyone in water?

Acts 1:5,

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
​

I think the ultimate irony of water baptism is that it didn't even save anyone. Salvation was not available until the Day of Pentecost. That day was the first day that anyone got saved. They got baptized for sure, but baptized in what?

Reread Acts 1:5 before answering. Don't say, "but this" or "but that." Just read what Jesus would baptize them in shortly after he ascended and believe it. I don't care what any church says on the matter. It's the word and nothing but the word that defines our rules of faith and practice. Let tradition, whether 2 days or 2,000 years old, be damned! It does nothing but make God's word of no effect.

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
​

You, and I guess your church, makes baptism in holy spirit of none effect by your tradition of water. You, and I guess your church, would deny the 9 ways that holy spirit manifests itself as per 1 Cor 12:7-10, even though 7 of the 9 are the very works Jesus did. While making an outward show of piety by water baptism, you refuse to believe that you can actually do the works Jesus did and even greater works (John 14:12). Water will never get you that. The works of Jesus can only be done because of holy spirit in which you were baptized and which dwells within you. I'd suggest you get your head out of the water and into holy spirit. You won't regret it.

God bless.

 

[rrobs]

Again, you are inferring. You talked about adding to Romans 10:9, you are seriously adding to Hebrews, things that it does not say itself. You are filling in gaps where you have not the authority. Actually you are creating gaps where there are none and then filling them in.
Proof in your words
"I think the main point of Hebrews 9 is the symbolic nature of the things in the OT and how..."
What you think about Hebrews does not fulfill the scriptural requirement to establish as fact what you're saying.
You're taking a passage about the shadow of things and indiscriminately applying it to baptism in water in Jesus's name and baptism with the Holy Spirit, on your own. I understand it is the "by grace alone, through faith alone" way to be comfortable with such loose associations. But that is also why I keep repeating that this paradigm is only good from afar, and if you don't get specific, or else it falls apart. There is no scripture that "states" what you are stating. John baptized with water, Jesus did end up baptizing with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 and in Acs 10, as the only two times mentioned in scripture, and Jesus commanded his followers to baptize others in water in His name. This is completely unavoidable as is seen being done in Acts 8:36-39 & Acts 10:47-48. This was a command Matthew 28:19 being followed given by Jesus himself.

None of Jesus's followers in the Bible ever went around telling people, You are saved through "baptism with the Holy Spirit". This is one of the many things that is taught in the "by grace alone through, faith alone" manual that is not found in scriptures.

All I can say is enjoy your tradition and outward shows of piety. I'll stick with the scriptures.

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
​

 

[YoursTrue]

If you mean died before Jesus was on earth, then the verse applies
Hebrews 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, [40] since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Baptism in Jesus's name did not apply until it was first issued Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38-39.

I agree.

 

[e.r.m.]

All I can say is enjoy your tradition and outward shows of piety. I'll stick with the scriptures.

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
​

An accusation that is not supported by scripture.

Please show the scriptures that actually say that baptism in water in Jesus's name (not John's baptism) is a shadow of baptism with the Holy Spirit and where the apostles taught that "baptism with the Holy Spirit" saves.

 

[YoursTrue]

So your church does not believe in faith alone / grace alone salvation.

B/c you believe and teach -

baptized in holy spirit + repent + Confessing + Believing

Rob said -"We just are baptized in holy spirit the moment we repent by Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead."

Interesting point, I'll have to do more research in the scriptures.

 

[rrobs]

Jesus commanded his followers to baptize others in water in His name.

I add to the scriptures? That's funny. It's funny because you go on to say that Jesus told others to baptize in water. Really? Where did he tell others to baptize in water? The only time I know of where he even mentioned water in relationship to baptism is when he said he'd replace water with holy spirit. Every other time he spoke of baptism it was to do it in his name. Even john the Baptist understood that, and he wasn't even born again like yourself.

None of Jesus's followers in the Bible ever went around telling people, You are saved through "baptism with the Holy Spirit". This is one of the many things that is taught in the "by grace alone through, faith alone" manual that is not found in scriptures.

At least the Galatians knew they were saved by grace even though they wrongly thought they were afterwards perfected by works (Gal 3:1-3). Paul called them fools. You want works? Go for it, but it'll make you a fool. Not my words, but Paul's.

What arrogance to think you can add to the grace with which God has so lovingly saved you and will perfect you as you renew your mind to His word! If grace alone through faith alone is not good enough for you, then you are lost to the truth of what Jesus did for you. To you, even though you think he is God, he was not capable of securing your redemption. How sad. Your life could be infinitely more joyful if you really understood grace without works.

You must feel terrible every time you slip and commit a sin. With your attitude every little sin only points out your weakness as a flesh and blood human being. Never mind that the whole time you are sulking for having slipped, God is telling you, "Just admit what you did and I'll forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)" That, my friend, is what grace is all about. It should take about 2 seconds to confess it and move on with the greatness of God's wonderful matchless word.

If you call "grace alone through faith alone" a manual, so be it. I'll take the manual any day of the week over whatever you, and presumably your church, is pushing.

 

[rrobs]

Please show the scriptures that actually say that baptism in water in Jesus's name (not John's baptism) is a shadow of baptism with the Holy Spirit and where the apostles taught that "baptism with the Holy Spirit" saves.

Why don't you tell me where baptism in water saves.

Did you get the part where I said the word "washings" in Hebrews 9:10 is the Greek word "baptismos?" It specifically says "divers" washings. That means there was no type of baptism before Jesus that saved anyone, including water. It was just a symbol pointing to the greater that was to come. That, coupled with the truth that both John and Jesus specifically said no water, but holy spirit, out to be enough for even the most tradition bound, stubborn, recalcitrant Christian to give up and admit to the one baptism mentioned in Ephesians as being that in holy spirit.

But, alas, the pull of tradition is strong. As I said, it is so strong that it can make God's word of none effect (Matt 15:6). Hmmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the lack of signs, wonders, and miracles in virtually all churches of today? I think it does!

 

[e.r.m.]

The change between the old and new was incredibly huge and breathtaking. To think it was absorbed by the apostles overnight is a complete denial of human nature and reality. Add to that the propensity of the Jews to not understand, believe, and act upon the things of God, and it seems unthinkable that they suddenly knew and understood the whole enchilada.

This is most evident in the events leading up to and including the council in Jerusalem in Acts 15. The issues brought up what about the Gentiles following circumcision and the Mosaic law. Those were the concerns in the transition, there was no concern brought up about baptism. You seem to believe, as with Hebrews, that you can bring up any issue in the New Testament and point it at baptism, even though no one in the New Testament did. You seem to believe that what Peter said at the day of Pentecost about baptism was half baked. There is nothing expressed anywhere in the New Testament that baptism in water in Jesus's name Acts 2:38-39, 10:47-48 was initially taught wrong. No one, including Paul, went back and said now that we understand things better about baptism unlike before, let me share what it really is. Neither Paul nor anyone else gave a clarification on baptism that conflicted with Acts 2:38-39.

It took several years for Paul to reveal the greatness of the new and then more time for the early Christians to absorb it. Why is that so hard to understand?

What did Paul actually say about baptism in water in Jesus's name, that changed it from what Peter said in Acts 2:38-39? 1 Corinthians 1:17 doesn't count because he had seen to it that the audience address in this letter was baptized Acts 18:8.

 

[rrobs]

What did Paul actually say about baptism in water in Jesus's name, that changed it from what Peter said in Acts 2:38-39? 1 Corinthians 1:17 doesn't count because he had seen to it that the audience address in this letter was baptized Acts 18:8.

I can't believe you keep adding to the scriptures like you do. You sure seem to respect God's word, so I don't understand why you keep adding water where it isn't there.

Acts 2:38-39,

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.​

There are 61 words in those verses and not one of them is "water." Admittedly none of them are "holy spirit" either. So what do we do? We must look elsewhere for the answer. In this case it is as easy as pie. What did Jesus say about baptism a mere 10 days before Peter spoke the words in Acts 2? That of course would be acts 1:5.

John will give you one dollar, but I'll give you one million dollars. I guess you'd rather have the one dollar from John. Of course that's just an analogy. Regardless of your choice of John's water over Jesus' holy spirit, you are absolutely baptized in holy spirit and that is your salvation. The water just got you a little wet and perhaps made you feel a little better and may have impressed those who witnessed your dunking. It sure didn't add anything to the work Jesus completely finished on your behalf.

 

[e.r.m.]

Why don't you tell me where baptism in water saves.

Did you get the part where I said the word "washings" in Hebrews 9:10 is the Greek word "baptismos?" It specifically says "divers" washings. That means there was no type of baptism before Jesus that saved anyone, including water. It was just a symbol pointing to the greater that was to come. That, coupled with the truth that both John and Jesus specifically said no water, but holy spirit, out to be enough for even the most tradition bound, stubborn, recalcitrant Christian to give up and admit to the one baptism mentioned in Ephesians as being that in holy spirit.

But, alas, the pull of tradition is strong. As I said, it is so strong that it can make God's word of none effect (Matt 15:6). Hmmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the lack of signs, wonders, and miracles in virtually all churches of today? I think it does!

out to be enough for even the most tradition bound, stubborn, recalcitrant Christian to give up

I appreciate your good vocabulary, lol.

Did you get the part where I said the word "washings" in Hebrews 9:10 is the Greek word "baptismos?" It specifically says "divers" washings. That means there was no type of baptism before Jesus that saved anyone, including water

Nothing here that addresses baptism in water in Jesus's name that came starting with Jesus's command Matthew 28:19, obeyed by Peter Acts 2:38-39.

It was just a symbol pointing to the greater that was to come. That, coupled with the truth that both John and Jesus specifically said no water, but holy spirit

We have only your word to go on. There is no scripture saying baptism was a symbol pointing to the greater that was to come. Jesus never said no water. His followers followed Jesus's command to baptize in water in His name Acts 2:38-39, 8:36-39, 10:47-48, while Jesus did the baptizing with the Holy Spirit himself. They existed "concurrently".

 

[e.r.m.]

I can't believe you keep adding to the scriptures like you do. You sure seem to respect God's word, so I don't understand why you keep adding water where it isn't there.

Acts 2:38-39,

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.​

There are 61 words in those verses and not one of them is "water." Admittedly none of them are "holy spirit" either. So what do we do? We must look elsewhere for the answer. In this case it is as easy as pie. What did Jesus say about baptism a mere 10 days before Peter spoke the words in Acts 2? That of course would be acts 1:5.

John will give you one dollar, but I'll give you one million dollars. I guess you'd rather have the one dollar from John. Of course that's just an analogy. Regardless of your choice of John's water over Jesus' holy spirit, you are absolutely baptized in holy spirit and that is your salvation. The water just got you a little wet and perhaps made you feel a little better and may have impressed those who witnessed your dunking. It sure didn't add anything to the work Jesus completely finished on your behalf.

John will give you one dollar, but I'll give you one million dollars. Of course that's just an analogy. , lol.

 

[Nova2216]

Acts 1:5,

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
​

I think the ultimate irony of water baptism is that it didn't even save anyone. Salvation was not available until the Day of Pentecost. That day was the first day that anyone got saved. They got baptized for sure, but baptized in what?

Reread Acts 1:5 before answering. Don't say, "but this" or "but that." Just read what Jesus would baptize them in shortly after he ascended and believe it. I don't care what any church says on the matter. It's the word and nothing but the word that defines our rules of faith and practice. Let tradition, whether 2 days or 2,000 years old, be damned! It does nothing but make God's word of no effect.

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
​

You, and I guess your church, makes baptism in holy spirit of none effect by your tradition of water. You, and I guess your church, would deny the 9 ways that holy spirit manifests itself as per 1 Cor 12:7-10, even though 7 of the 9 are the very works Jesus did. While making an outward show of piety by water baptism, you refuse to believe that you can actually do the works Jesus did and even greater works (John 14:12). Water will never get you that. The works of Jesus can only be done because of holy spirit in which you were baptized and which dwells within you. I'd suggest you get your head out of the water and into holy spirit. You won't regret it.

God bless.

(Rom.10:9,10) does NOT mention Holy Spirit Baptism.


* 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

 

[Nova2216]

Are all men commanded to be Holy Spirit baptized?

How do I obey such a command?

How do I know I have obeyed being Holy Spirit baptized?