Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[rrobs]

Being baptized with the Holy Spirit does not preclude water baptism. Just as when Jesus was baptized in water, the holy spirit descended like a dove. (Like a dove?)

Correct. Water will not harm anything. Nonetheless, our salvation lies in baptism by holy spirit. If water feels good, go for it, but it won't make anybody more saved than holy spirit.

Heb 9:9-10,

9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.​

Washings is the Greek word "baptismos." Sure looks like water was a figure and not the real deal. Meat, drinks, dipping, or other carnal ordinances are no longer relevant after Jesus died and was resurrected. The last 2 clauses in verse 9 are clear in saying that they were not able to make the believer perfect. Jesus did that, not us, hence, the subject of the OP.

 

[Nova2216]

I explained Acts to you, but you want to think the Jews who practiced their faith one way for thousands of years suddenly changed overnight. Look at all the things the Apostles got wrong, especially Peter, when Jesus was with them in person. Is it reasonable to assume they suddenly got it all right in one day? There is even a record where a congregation pointed out to Paul that many of the Jews were still zealous for the law, and that was several years after Jesus left. Clearly they were a bit behind on the new program.

Have you read much about the renewed mind in Paul's letters? Basically, the new birth does not affect the mind. We don't suddenly become privy to all the things of God. Instead we must renew our mind by slowly but surely replacing our own natural man ideas with those of Christ. It can't possibly occur overnight, and yet that is what you want from the Apostles. Things just don't work that way.

What does 1 Peter 1:22-23 have to do with salvation? Looks like verse 22 is talking about loving the brothers and verse 23 is talking about how we are born again of incorruptible seed. Many Christians don't even believe verse 23. They think they can somehow change it into corruptible seed because they commit too many sins. That is an insult to Jesus who did do a complete job in effecting our salvation. People are always putting their own ideas into the scriptures instead of just reading and believing. Many don't believe the seed is really incorruptible.

Whatever the scholars, enlightened or otherwise, say does not matter. It's the word and nothing but the word.

* You are trying to explain away the things we see in the book of Acts b/c they do not harmonize with what you believe and teach. Now you are DEFLECTING.

No one said all the Jews even accepted the NT Law which was established in (Acts 2), but 3000 did accept the NT Law system on the day of Pentecost.(Ac.2:38,47)
(salvation by grace - Titus 2:11,12)


2. I know of no one who says one instantly knows and understands all things about the NT Law System.

When you read you will understand (Eph.3:3,4)

3. (1Peter1:22,23) mentions -

ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth...Being born again,

At least it sounds like they obeyed something and that helped to purify their souls of sin.


4. Are you aware that FAITH ALONE salvation mainly began with Martin Luther in the 1500s?

What you teach came from Martin Luther.

You are following Luther not Christ.

 

[Nova2216]

Correct. Water will not harm anything. Nonetheless, our salvation lies in baptism by holy spirit. If water feels good, go for it, but it won't make anybody more saved than holy spirit.

Heb 9:9-10,

9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.​

Washings is the Greek word "baptismos." Sure looks like water was a figure and not the real deal. Meat, drinks, dipping, or other carnal ordinances are no longer relevant after Jesus died and was resurrected. The last 2 clauses in verse 9 are clear in saying that they were not able to make the believer perfect. Jesus did that, not us, hence, the subject of the OP.

* I looked at (Heb.9:9,10) and it does not teach what you claim it teaches. Up to verse 10 is speaking of the OT times and not the NT times.

Verse 11 does begin with the Christ and speaks of Christ being a high Priest.

At the end of verse 10 we find the words UNTIL the time of reformation.

Up to the words "UNTIL the time of reformation" its referring to the OT sacrifices. It is only in verse 11 that Christ is mentioned as High Priest.

The phrase "time of reformation" sounds much like (Acts 3:19) (times of refreshing).

I truly think you are like a drowning man trying to grasp on to anything you can which MIGHT help save you.

Friend,I can give you a very good and decisive answer for the hope that lies within my heart, why cannot you do the same? (1Peter 3:15).

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Like you really want to be saved!

That's part of my whole point though.
Christians say that salvation doesn't come through God (making all the prophets before Jesus null) and that salvation can only come through accepting the death of a historical person.
Seriously, I'll go to hell for believing only in the One God, I'll go to hell for following the Torah or the ten commandments etc.

 

[YoursTrue]

Correct. Water will not harm anything. Nonetheless, our salvation lies in baptism by holy spirit. If water feels good, go for it, but it won't make anybody more saved than holy spirit.

Heb 9:9-10,

9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.​

Washings is the Greek word "baptismos." Sure looks like water was a figure and not the real deal. Meat, drinks, dipping, or other carnal ordinances are no longer relevant after Jesus died and was resurrected. The last 2 clauses in verse 9 are clear in saying that they were not able to make the believer perfect. Jesus did that, not us, hence, the subject of the OP.

Truly baptism in water does not save if the person has no idea of what he's getting baptized for and is not understanding what he must do after that. The Ethiopian eunuch knew enough about Jesus and righteousness to do the right (Christian) way after he got baptized in water and went his way.

 

[rational experiences]

When science says oh I believe that the Bible has hidden secrets about spirits and the past scientists were higher in their wisdom than what we are......they believe it true, just because none of them could realize how the ancients applied their trans mutation science.

What they seemed to have overlooked, science in the past is not so very different from today....just their techniques were. They took stone mass converted it into other stone mass....so did not remove stone mass to a nuclear condition of a form of mush. Stone remained.

So when science today reads it, they would misquote the readings and claim and so stone got replaced, when it never went anywhere....oh it disappeared he would say.

Really brother, I thought science knew that if you applied conversion a portion of the mass would disappear? The whole mass however never did.

Reading and ideal is just a fantasy of want. Magic.

The theme says FIRST...which you do not even quote nor infer to be relative THE BABY self is first.

Not Jesus the male adult who is removed.

Now if science began to talk baby in human sciences, then a lot of humans in our human community would suddenly become very aware of how evil you really are, wouldn't they.

Yet in RELATIVITY it states in the timed equivalence of the movement of the planet from 1 to position 12 in a cycle of 365, ICE and its newly born/reformed presence keeps life on Earth stable....so that life as a baby in the manger with the bio Nature of similarities in genetics ANIMALS reborn.

Together.

Instead in the nuclear condition being cosmological theories itself....the life of animals and babies....born mutated, no longer even natural, and animals and humans both get life ground attacked by nuclear mass gas irradiation fall out conditions.

And a scientist, as that Satanist says....oh water will not save you....really, thought you all owned intelligence?

 

[YoursTrue]

I was reading Acts chapter 11 and noticed this:

​

Acts 11:15-16,

15And as I (peter) began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.​

I didn't see water anywhere in this chapter, other than it was superseded by holy spirit according to verse 16.

I mentioned to you the slow uptake the Apostles, including Peter, showed in adapting to the new regime. That is exactly what verse 16 is speaking about. It suddenly dawned on Peter the true medium of baptism, i.e. holy spirit, not water.

Two thousand years later, many Christians, too many, are still stuck in the old and have little to no clue about the new.

Interesting, but when Jesus was baptized, he was baptized in water, right? (Yes.) And then John saw the holy spirit descend like a dove upon Jesus. And then a voice was heard.
Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

 

[rational experiences]

Interesting, but when Jesus was baptized, he was baptized in water, right? (Yes.) And then John saw the holy spirit descend like a dove upon Jesus. And then a voice was heard.
Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

Did Jesus then become someone or something else, as if you are quoting a science reaction as a theme? You know development and movement beyond what is already stated to exist.....Jesus?

 

[YoursTrue]

I was reading Acts chapter 11 and noticed this:

​

Acts 11:15-16,

15And as I (peter) began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.​

I didn't see water anywhere in this chapter, other than it was superseded by holy spirit according to verse 16.

I mentioned to you the slow uptake the Apostles, including Peter, showed in adapting to the new regime. That is exactly what verse 16 is speaking about. It suddenly dawned on Peter the true medium of baptism, i.e. holy spirit, not water.

Two thousand years later, many Christians, too many, are still stuck in the old and have little to no clue about the new.

Here is what Jesus said at Matthew 28:19,20 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you." So baptizing "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," does not mean, imo, that one waves a wand over someone saying those words and they're baptized. Those disciples also understood, as Philip did, that baptism required water immersion.

Please tell me what you think this means:
Acts 8:35-38:
"Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is there to prevent me from being baptized?”c 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him."

 

[rational experiences]

Water is natural in the environment, so how would science say to itself, so then I can use water beyond water just being present, claiming that they are studying and imposing atmospheric conditions, to know the atmosphere they claim for a collider reaction?

Not any of the natural states in natural order or with natural conditions was ever owned by science, science had to manipulate, change and then impose variations to orders, for their own alchemical chemical nuclear radiation conversions.

So if a male has a machine and he already gained God gases to convert first to have his machine built and second to have gases be put into that machine......he already imposed all conversions by thinking themes by that purpose....did it all his own self.

Now if you had a brain mind problem and said to your self that you were 3 people in one body....an adult male claiming I am a Father, as a an adult, yet not in the act of real human creation having sex....so says in thinking which is what you all do not include, SELF....idealising self and lying to self.

I am not having sex in science says the male adult Father ideal of human self. Then says but I am the same as my Father as the son and the Holy spirit of which I have given idealisation to and about is already naturally owned by my mind review....of baby male....adult male that created me.....baby male to adult human self.

For the stories Bible are WRITTEN AFTER THE FACT of all historic occurrences, and it is not LITERAL...it was history.

You cannot discuss a condition occurring unless it occurred.

Oh, but wait a minute, a lying Satanic male possessed psyche of his own sciences, not thinking consciously he would claim, I know scientific reactions for they already occurred and I am trying to copy it by a machine reaction.

For ground fission reaction occurred to GOD O the Earth, not to human man as a nuclear statement....and he knew and realised the reactive causes.

So today science makes it obvious that it is studying all of the literature and claiming and so I will cause it again.....to human beings, yet I will also have the old science reaction.

Yet the scientist self was manipulating physical mass of stone inside of his Temple building of science...trans mutation processes.

Water is the same natural status for a Father as it is for the son, and the Holy spirit was already natural for both the Father and the son in his environmental heavenly living.

Science is just a liar...its purposes always fake. Ask a scientist today, okay studier of life in attack claiming that if you have the attack signals you can then work out life not attacked, which in SANITY says.....when life is just living naturally minding its own business. Satanism, self lying possession, always did just lie.

For first of all you do not own a planet ground in your theories. You do not own the interactive reactions of that ground mass to the conditions of PHI which you claimed were radiation radio wave sounds. Mass is just mass it does not own any sounds.

 

[e.r.m.]

Here is what Jesus said at Matthew 28:19,20 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you." So baptizing "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," does not mean, imo, that one waves a wand over someone saying those words and they're baptized. Those disciples also understood, as Philip did, that baptism required water immersion.

Please tell me what you think this means:
Acts 8:35-38:
"Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is there to prevent me from being baptized?”c 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him."

I think his position is (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) that whenever baptism in water is mentioned after John the Baptist died, those doing the baptizing were messing up. That they were still stuck on the old law and they hadn't learned yet from Paul the way things were supposed to be done.

 

[YoursTrue]

I think his position is (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) that whenever baptism in water is mentioned after John the Baptist died, that those doing the baptizing we're messing up. That they were still stuck on the old law and they hadn't learned yet from Paul the way things were supposed to be done.

OK,here I am not understanding you. The Ethiopian's baptism occurred after Jesus' death. And I think it's important that Jesus was baptized in water, also the holy spirit came down as a dove, and God's voice was heard. Jesus set the pace for water baptism.

 

[e.r.m.]

OK,here I am not understanding you. The Ethiopian's baptism occurred after Jesus' death. And I think it's important that Jesus was baptized in water, also the holy spirit came down as a dove, and God's voice was heard. Jesus set the pace for water baptism.

Here I was trying to describe his position as best as I understood as he is explain it to me in the past. Of course I don't agree with his position.

 

[e.r.m.]

OK,here I am not understanding you. The Ethiopian's baptism occurred after Jesus' death. And I think it's important that Jesus was baptized in water, also the holy spirit came down as a dove, and God's voice was heard. Jesus set the pace for water baptism.

Can you think of a scripture that directly connects Jesus's baptism with anyone else's? Anyone in the Bible who made such a comment? Or if you think hard about can you only trace the inception of this idea from people you've known? Is there a reason why no one in the New Testament mentioned Jesus's baptism in water in relation to others baptisms in water?
I know it must seem like a foregone conclusion, but can you see in the New Testament, at least according to what was expressed, it wasn't a thing?

 

[rrobs]

(1Peter1:22,23) mentions -

ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth...Being born again,

At least it sounds like they obeyed something and that helped to purify their souls of sin.

Yes. Exactly. They obeyed Roman 10:9-10. They confessed Jesus as their Lord and believed God raised him from the dead. At that point Jesus baptized them in holy spirit and they were born again.

 

[rrobs]

* I looked at (Heb.9:9,10) and it does not teach what you claim it teaches. Up to verse 10 is speaking of the OT times and not the NT times.

Verse 11 does begin with the Christ and speaks of Christ being a high Priest.

At the end of verse 10 we find the words UNTIL the time of reformation.

Up to the words "UNTIL the time of reformation" its referring to the OT sacrifices. It is only in verse 11 that Christ is mentioned as High Priest.

The phrase "time of reformation" sounds much like (Acts 3:19) (times of refreshing).

I truly think you are like a drowning man trying to grasp on to anything you can which MIGHT help save you.

Friend,I can give you a very good and decisive answer for the hope that lies within my heart, why cannot you do the same? (1Peter 3:15).

Nope. No drowning. I am truly saved through faith in Jesus Christ, as you yourself are saved.

Taking Hebrews 9:10 as saying anything other than divers washings (Greek baptismos) was gone at the time of refreshing requires a complete abandonment of otherwise simple words and grammar.

By the way, you should allow Jesus to do the judging. God granted him that authority, not you. He knows who belongs to him and he is able to keep them until the end. Just stick to the scriptures and stop insinuating I, or any other brother, is somehow lost.

 

[rrobs]

That's part of my whole point though.
Christians say that salvation doesn't come through God (making all the prophets before Jesus null) and that salvation can only come through accepting the death of a historical person.
Seriously, I'll go to hell for believing only in the One God, I'll go to hell for following the Torah or the ten commandments etc.

Actually you will go to hell. However, the word "hell" in the scriptures is almost always the word for "grave" so we will all go to hell eventually, Christian and non-Christian alike. Perhaps you are thinking of the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation. That is something else. Whoever is thrown into to it will die a second death. In death there is no consciousness, hence no eternal torment. Eternal torment was a tool used by the early church for control. Sadly, much of Christendom still uses it.

By the way, I also believe one means one. This three in one nonsense attributed to God drives me crazy, so it's always nice to converse with someone who understands the difference between one and three. Why there is such a lack of understand that difference in the orthodox church is beyond me. Kindergartners even know the difference between one and three.

Take care.

 

[YoursTrue]

That's part of my whole point though.
Christians say that salvation doesn't come through God (making all the prophets before Jesus null) and that salvation can only come through accepting the death of a historical person.
Seriously, I'll go to hell for believing only in the One God, I'll go to hell for following the Torah or the ten commandments etc.

I can assure you that hell doesn't hurt. The opposite of life is death, something that many religions do not teach or understand.

 

[YoursTrue]

Nope. No drowning. I am truly saved through faith in Jesus Christ, as you yourself are saved.

Taking Hebrews 9:10 as saying anything other than divers washings (Greek baptismos) was gone at the time of refreshing requires a complete abandonment of otherwise simple words and grammar.

By the way, you should allow Jesus to do the judging. God granted him that authority, not you. He knows who belongs to him and he is able to keep them until the end. Just stick to the scriptures and stop insinuating I, or any other brother, is somehow lost.

Faith is not the end-all of believing that one is saved. Jesus knows, yes, who belong to Him. There are ways to follow Jesus. Some can be deluded.

 

[rrobs]

Here is what Jesus said at Matthew 28:19,20 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you." So baptizing "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," does not mean, imo, that one waves a wand over someone saying those words and they're baptized. Those disciples also understood, as Philip did, that baptism required water immersion.

Please tell me what you think this means:
Acts 8:35-38:
"Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is there to prevent me from being baptized?”c 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him."

The Jews had practiced their faith according to the OT for thousands of years. Suffice it to say, they got used to it. Then along comes Jesus and changes everything in a radically radical way. Is it reasonable to think the Jews suddenly understood the new program? I don't think so. It would take some time. Paul hadn't even written his letters when Phillip spoke with the eunuch, so there is no way he could have known the fullness of the change brought about at Pentecost.

Acts is a transition from the old to the new. The early church gradually came to understand all the changes, but it took some time. Here is one example of what they did not realize until Paul (or whoever wrote Hebrews) revealed the new truth:

Heb 9:9-10,

9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.​

The words "divers washings" in verse 10 is the Greek word "baptismos." According to verse 9 then, baptism was a figure, not the real deal. That is of course true for virtually the entire OT. It is full of figures that foreshadowed the coming of Jesus. Those figures never never made anyone perfect, including water. Both John and Jesus said that whereas John baptized in water, Jesus would baptize in holy spirit.

Matt 3:11,

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
​

Acts 1:5,

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
​

Acts 11:15-16,

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.​

If these verses don't say holy spirit replaced water, then words have no meaning. To think otherwise is a clear example of the power tradition has over truth.

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
​

Since many Christians don't understand baptism in holy spirit at the time of the new birth, they of course are ignorant as to the manifestations of that gift of holy spirit. Read 1 Corinthians 12:7-10. What virtually all Christians call gifts, God calls manifestations. There is a difference. If you notice, 7 of those 9 are things Jesus did.

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
​

Failure to understand our true baptism in holy spirit makes it quite impossible to carry out this directive. The orthodox church lacks true power because they don't believe John or Jesus regarding baptism in holy spirit. How sad that is. It's about time for a wake up call and for the church to shed tradition and replace it with the truth of God's word. Then we would see great signs, wonders, and miracles every day of the week.

By the way, it is almost certain that the words "...in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit..." were not in the original texts of Matthew 28:19. It is one of many examples where the translators changed the original so as to conform with preexisting ideas.

God bless