e.r.m.
Church of Christ
If you can find a verse indicating anyone getting baptized to follow Jesus pattern, then ok. But otherwise that's a traditional teaching, not a Biblical one.
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Jesus Said "It Is Finished"
- Thread starter Nova2216
- Start date
rrobs
Well-Known Member
What would you take these verses to mean regarding water vs. holy spirit baptism?
Luke 3:16,
John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Acts 1:5,
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Do you see any indication there that holy spirit replaced the symbolic water? Water was symbolic (and many other things in the OT), you should know.
Heb 9:9-11,
9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
The words "divers washings" in verse 10 is the Greek word baptismos. Clearly it was only meant to be temporary until Jesus' death and resurrection brought the real deal. In this case, holy spirit replaced water as the medium in which one is immersed.
It's fine to get water baptized, but it will not add one whit to what you got when you believed and were baptized in holy spirit. And not getting water baptized will not subtract one thing from anyone born again, i.e. baptized in holy spirit. It's optional. It might feel good, but it really does zip as far as making us cleansed from sin. That is what holy spirit does.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
None of these verses say everyone gets baptized with the Holy Spirit. Luke 3:16 just said He would do it. Acts 1:5 said "you" and the 120 were, not everyone in that crowd.
Acts 2:38-39 says makes baptism in Jesus's name (which is in water Acts 10:47-48) unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
It's explicitly stated in the text that it's for all. That eveyone is baptized with the Holy Spirit comes only from traditional teaching.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I was looking more into the Biblical accounts of water baptism, and so I came across Acts chapter 10 describing the conversion of the Gentiles. They were baptized in water. Notice:
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. 45All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God.
Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days."
So, holy spirit fell upon those hearing the message about Jesus Christ and then it says they were baptized in water. It seems clear to me thus far that water was essential for baptism, performed in the name of Jesus Christ.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
As I said, and I'm trying to keep this down, meaning to stick to a fundamental foundational discussion (such as water baptism for Jesus' followers). Acts chapter 10 shows that water baptism was approvingly performed for Gentile converts. But at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, he led the way. John did not lead the way. Jesus did. The apostles taught as Jesus taught them, baptizing in the name of Christ Holy spirit also fell upon those believers.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Agreed, which also shows that baptism in Jesus's name in Acts 2:38-39 (also commanded by Peter) is in water.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Right now all I can say is that John was baptizing, let's see -- back to Acts 10 for some comment about this --
37. You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 37. how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.
(God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit after the baptism that John proclaimed.)
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Frankly, I believe that is true.
Nova2216
Active Member
*Are Children Born With Sin?
by Moisés Pinedo
Are Children Born With Sin?
Original Sin and a Misapplied Passage
By Wayne Jackson
Original Sin and a Misapplied Passage
Whatever (Rom.5:12) means it must harmonize with (Ezekiel 18:20).
If a person thinks these two verses oppose one another their understanding of one verse or both verses are incorrect.
Thanks
Nova2216
Active Member
Paul mentioned in (Rom.7:9) he was ALIVE once but when the commandment came SIN REVIVED and HE DIED.
Notice he was first ALIVE spiritually, but then he lusted and sinned according to (James 1:13,14) (Isa.59:1,2).
(Rom. 7:9) For I was ALIVE without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
(KJV)
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Notice he was first ALIVE spiritually, but then he lusted and sinned according to (James 1:13,14) (Isa.59:1,2).
(Rom. 7:9) For I was ALIVE without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
(KJV)
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
It's easy to harmonize once one accepts the truth that Ezekiel, while saying the son will not be punished for the father's sin, does not say the son will not have his own sins. According to Romans 5:12, they absolutely will commit their own sins.
Again, I will point out that according to Rom 5:12 we die, not because of the sins we commit, but because of the sin nature we inherited. Romans 5:12 says we sin because we are sinners, not that we are sinners because we sin.
Adam and Jesus were the only two men ever born without a sin nature. Of course, Adam lost his innocence, whereas Jesus kept himself free from sin. That's why he was the lamb without blemish able to be sacrificed for our sins. Very good thing for us!
All babies are born with a sin nature and are thus destined to die, even if they themselves died before committing any actual sins. It's the sin nature that dooms us, not the product (sins) of that sin nature. Of course, as per Revelation 20 and other places, babies that died young will be judged by Jesus in the end. He will judge righteous judgment and I would guess that when those babies are resurrected, their names will be found in the book of life. But I'm not the judge on that.
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Nova2216
Active Member
It's easy to harmonize once one accepts the truth that Ezekiel, while saying the son will not be punished for the father's sin, does not say the son will not have his own sins. According to Romans 5:12, they absolutely will commit their own sins.
Again, I will point out that according to Rom 5:12 we die, not because of the sins we commit, but because of the sin nature we inherited. Romans 5:12 says we sin because we are sinners, not that we are sinners because we sin.
Adam and Jesus were the only two men ever born without a sin nature. Of course, Adam lost his innocence, whereas Jesus kept himself free from sin. That's why he was the lamb without blemish able to be sacrificed for our sins. Very good thing for us!
All babies are born with a sin nature and are thus destined to die, even if they themselves died before committing any actual sins. It's the sin nature that dooms us, not the product (sins) of that sin nature. Of course, as per Revelation 20 and other places, babies that died young will be judged by Jesus in the end. He will judge righteous judgment and I would guess that when those babies are resurrected, their names will be found in the book of life. But I'm not the judge on that.
* Rob - "Again, I will point out that according to Rom 5:12 we die, not because of the sins we commit, but because of the sin nature we inherited. Romans 5:12 says we sin because we are sinners, not that we are sinners because we sin."
God - (Ezekiel 18:20)
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Can anyone see a glaring contradiction here?
Nova2216
Active Member
Death was passed down to "ALL" men and not the sin.
Men do not have a sin nature.
What does the word "ALL" refer to in (Rom.5:12)?
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Jas.1:13)
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Men do not have a sin nature.
What does the word "ALL" refer to in (Rom.5:12)?
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Jas.1:13)
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Nova2216
Active Member
It's easy to harmonize once one accepts the truth that Ezekiel, while saying the son will not be punished for the father's sin, does not say the son will not have his own sins. According to Romans 5:12, they absolutely will commit their own sins.
Again, I will point out that according to Rom 5:12 we die, not because of the sins we commit, but because of the sin nature we inherited. Romans 5:12 says we sin because we are sinners, not that we are sinners because we sin.
Adam and Jesus were the only two men ever born without a sin nature. Of course, Adam lost his innocence, whereas Jesus kept himself free from sin. That's why he was the lamb without blemish able to be sacrificed for our sins. Very good thing for us!
All babies are born with a sin nature and are thus destined to die, even if they themselves died before committing any actual sins. It's the sin nature that dooms us, not the product (sins) of that sin nature. Of course, as per Revelation 20 and other places, babies that died young will be judged by Jesus in the end. He will judge righteous judgment and I would guess that when those babies are resurrected, their names will be found in the book of life. But I'm not the judge on that.
* You vacillate way to much.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Are we overlooking the fact that man has two natures? Man has a physical nature that dies because it is physical. Man also has a spirit nature. This spirit nature CAN live forever if there is no sin OR if sin is forgiven. The wages of sin is DEATH but Jesus paid for our sin by his death. So our SPIRITS can live forever even though our bodies die. But we must trust in Jesus and follow his leadership in order for our sin to be forgiven.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
OK, in harmony with that (I think), I realize we are all sinners with inborn tendency to sin. Some sins are worse than others. David, for instance, was beloved by God, but committed a great sin in God's eyes. Yet because he finally came to realize what he had done, God had mercy on him.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus was resurrected. He was seen by his disciples.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That's right, God does not do the tempting because He cannot be tempted, therefore would not tempt others. But He allows it. Sin brings about death. The death of infants does not mean that they do not have death in their dna, although not sinning in the likeness of Adam.
Nova2216
Active Member
(2Chron.7:14) - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin,
David was a man after Gods own heart b/c he was willing to repent of his sins. Not just be aware he sinned. God always requires repentance before sins are forgiven. (Luk13:3)
Thanks
Nova2216
Active Member
When sinful babies die do they go to hell?
What sin did any baby commit (b/c sin is committed not inherited)?