Jesus story isn't original

[Atomist]

I will give you an example from my life. I'm a professional entertainer specializing in magic and comedy. In this profession, I've have people come up to me and swear that I levitated three or four feet off the ground, when in reality, it was more like three or four inches. They swear that it was real, when logically, we know that I was simply performing a magic trick.

There was a real trick, but it was exaggerated into something completely new.

We can also see this in some places in India, where there are individuals still worshipped as gods. One of the highly used tricks among these individuals is where they seemingly read the minds, and answer questions that their followers had, even those those questions were never vocally asked. What the followers forget is that before hand, they had written down the questions they wanted answered, and the "god" secretly sneaked a peak. The fact that the question was written down doesn't matter and is forgotten. What is remembered is that the god figure was able to read their minds.

I believe this is very similar to what happened with Jesus. Some of the events were simply made up either for theological reasons, or because followers swore they actually saw those things happen (which is common even today. I mean I even get the same thing, partially because people get confused). Other events happened to a point, something logically possible, but later exaggerated to seem much more impressive.

I'm confused are you arguing that jesus was a magician that just did some tricks? If they were just tricks it destroys the whole jesus story, if they were miracles why couldn't he have performed the miracles that was said in the bible? regardless there should be some records of "normal miracles" from extra-biblical sources... say in the roman records?

I accept that they could be exaggerated but if they were indeed miracles it should be something special... worth making a record of.

 

[fallingblood]

The absurdity here is that the Jesus story follows the classic story line of good vs evil. It begins with a story that sets the plot. Hero fictions are written that way and the gospels follow that template. The story has a beginning that sets the plot, a middle part to define the characters, and then a climax where the hero is as close to death as can be after confronting evil, but in the end triumphs, and lives on, fading into the sunset to continue his work elsewhere, wherever it is needed. Now believers want to believe that there is a real Jesus behind the myth, fine, but please keep it to yourself and stop insulting our intelligence.

Please back up your baseless claims. All you do is rant about how there was no Jesus, yet you offer nothing of substance.

You are aware that Jesus actually dies in the story though right? And if you did some research on the idea of resurrection in Judaism, his resurrection would thus make sense as to why it was created.

 

[fallingblood]

I'm confused are you arguing that jesus was a magician that just did some tricks? If they were just tricks it destroys the whole jesus story, if they were miracles why couldn't he have performed the miracles that was said in the bible? regardless there should be some records of "normal miracles" from extra-biblical sources... say in the roman records?

I accept that they could be exaggerated but if they were indeed miracles it should be something special... worth making a record of.

There were a variety of faith healers who performed "miracles" in the first century. It really wasn't anything of importance. It actually is the same way today.

With Jesus, I would say he was a faith healer. He could be described as a magician, the idea is pretty much the same either way. The basic, he performed what was called miracles.

As to what he actually did, I would not really venture to say. However, since it is stressed that he healed the sick and blind, I think it is logical to assume there is something historical with that. In the classic work titled The Quest for the Historical Jesus, several authors are covered who actually had explanations for the miracles that were performed.

Personally, I choose to not try to imagine what the actual "miracles" were that Jesus performed because I see it to be pretty much a fruitless attempt as the exaggerations and invention of miracles could become so massive. What I take away from it is that he was a faith healer, and performed what people considered to be miracles. Maybe he healed the blind. Maybe he raised the dead. Or at least it seemed that way. We simply do not have much detail on these so called miracles, so it is hard to discern what was at the center of them.

 

[Politesse]

I'm confused are you arguing that jesus was a magician that just did some tricks? If they were just tricks it destroys the whole jesus story, if they were miracles why couldn't he have performed the miracles that was said in the bible? regardless there should be some records of "normal miracles" from extra-biblical sources... say in the roman records?

Just curious; what Roman records are you referring to?

 

[dogsgod]

Please back up your baseless claims. All you do is rant about how there was no Jesus, yet you offer nothing of substance.

You are aware that Jesus actually dies in the story though right? And if you did some research on the idea of resurrection in Judaism, his resurrection would thus make sense as to why it was created.

You refer to four fairy tales that conflict with one another on theological grounds and you claim that I make baseless claims about there not being an historical Jesus behind the myth. Brilliant claim Sherlock, there may very well be an historical Jesus but don't expect me to assume as you do when there is no evidence to support such a notion. I'm not a believer in fairy tales so excuse me if I don't jump to conclusions.

 

[Atomist]

Just curious; what Roman records are you referring to?

I can't give an exact thing, but I remember it being on a couple of documentaries that I watched... but I think the main idea is that they had scribes recording the significant events.

Fallingblood I think we agree more than we disagree... but if jesus was a faith healer... it destroys Christianity fundamentally.

 

[Politesse]

I can't give an exact thing, but I remember it being on a couple of documentaries that I watched... but I think the main idea is that they had scribes recording the significant events.

I've never really heard of any Roman records concerning Judea of Jesus' time, save those of Josephus. No doubt they once existed, but not now.

 

[ninerbuff]

Or, maybe God was telling the story from the beginning so people would know what to expect and look for.

Why would god speak of other gods like Zeus when he is a jealous god?

 

[ninerbuff]

I will give you an example from my life. I'm a professional entertainer specializing in magic and comedy. In this profession, I've have people come up to me and swear that I levitated three or four feet off the ground, when in reality, it was more like three or four inches. They swear that it was real, when logically, we know that I was simply performing a magic trick.

There was a real trick, but it was exaggerated into something completely new.

We can also see this in some places in India, where there are individuals still worshipped as gods. One of the highly used tricks among these individuals is where they seemingly read the minds, and answer questions that their followers had, even those those questions were never vocally asked. What the followers forget is that before hand, they had written down the questions they wanted answered, and the "god" secretly sneaked a peak. The fact that the question was written down doesn't matter and is forgotten. What is remembered is that the god figure was able to read their minds.

I believe this is very similar to what happened with Jesus. Some of the events were simply made up either for theological reasons, or because followers swore they actually saw those things happen (which is common even today. I mean I even get the same thing, partially because people get confused). Other events happened to a point, something logically possible, but later exaggerated to seem much more impressive.

Funny you mention this because I use the same argument about "miracles" back in that time being nothing more than just "magic tricks" to amaze people.

 

[logician]

A few parallels.

Prophesied birth

Sun


Jesus​

Buddha​

[Earthly] father was a carpenter

Jesus​

Krishna​

Was given gifts at birth

Jesus​

Buddha​

Krishna​

Birth was accompanied by "wise men" and/or angles

Sun /


Mushroom


Jesus​

Buddha​

Horus / Osiris


Krishna


Mithra​

Birth was signaled by a star

Sun


Jesus​

Buddha​

Horus / Osiris


Krishna​

Born of a virgin

Sun /


Mushroom


Jesus


Attis of Phrygia


Buddha


Dionysus / Baccaus


Horus / Osiris


Krishna


Mithra​

Born on Dec. 25th

Sun


Jesus


Attis of Phrygia


Buddha


Dionysus / Baccaus


Horus / Osiris


Krishna


Mithra​

Born under poor conditions

Sun


Jesus​

Dionysus / Baccaus


Horus / Osiris​

Mithra​

Crush serpents head

Mushroom


Jesus​

Buddha​

Krishna​

Was both Divine Son and Father

Jesus


Attis of Phrygia​

Came to fulfill the Law.

Jesus​

Buddha​

Horus / Osiris​

Was of royal decent

Jesus​

Buddha​

Horus / Osiris​

Taught in a temple at 12

Sun


Jesus​

Buddha​

Horus / Osiris​

Had 12 deciples

Sun


Jesus​

Horus / Osiris​

Mithra​

Baptized with water

Mushroom


Jesus​

Buddha​

Horus / Osiris​

Disappeared at a young age and returned, preaching, when he was in early 30s

Sun


Jesus​

Horus / Osiris​

Used mostly parables in his teachings

Mushroom


Jesus​

Krishna​

"Body as Bread" eaten by worshipers

Mushroom


Jesus


Attis of Phrygia​

 

[angellous_evangellous]

A few parallels.

[youtube]U7DFsBcVMDA[/youtube]
YouTube - Rush- Tom Sawyer

 

[logician]

That does not compute.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That does not compute.

Neither would the many reasons why your "parallels" are utterly insignificant, and no thought at all was put into that post other than pasting it from the internet somewhere.

So instead of demonstrating that your list is worthless [which would be a waste of time and thought], I just posted a song because both are just as valuable to you for this discussion.

The band is "Rush" and they are known for wierd time signatures, intellectually stimulating lyrics, and the best drummer alive.

 

[Breathe]

Perhaps you should do some scrutinising of your sources before you post things online, logician - this has some errors. I'll point out a couple.


Krishna's birthday is on Janmashtami, and was probably on 18th or the 21st of July, 3228 BCE. This was on the 1st of September this year.


As to Krishna's mother being a virgin.. well, I doubt it. Krishna was the eighth child of Devaki and Vasudeva--although I doubt it was by intercourse between a deity and a human, she was not a virgin.

I have not heard of Krishna's father being a carpenter before.

[youtube]kQBH1UoyyLI[/youtube]

Buddha's Birthday depends on the school, but it is usually between April to May. See Vesaka and Buddha Day on Wikipedia for a basic overview. They go by the moon, not the sun though.


Can you find some information on Buddha going to temple and teaching there at 12, because this is news to me, especially when one considers that his father, King Shuddhodana wished to keep his son away from religious teachings so that he wouldn't go off and become a holy man, and would stay a king (these were the two options the seer said he may become).

It may also be worth pointing out that it says within the Bible 'in the Sixth Month', being Elul. Chances are this may have been confused with a civil calendar, which the sixth month would have been Adar. Ten months from Elul (The sixth month), which is between August and September would be Tammuz, which would be about June-July, so chances are that Jesus' birth would have been around June-July initially, but someone may have confused the dates from the religious to the civil calendar months, so gone from Adar to Tevet (December-January) instead, and then with addition to Christianising the Pagan holiday if this was so, they would have added the date of the birth of Jesus (from the mis-chosen date) on to the Pagan holiday of Yule, Mithra, etc, and Bob's your uncle, it sticks.


Sooo...



However, at least it doesn't have the claims that Krishna and Buddha were crucified, like I have seen before.



Just my understanding. If I have any wrong (like the Hebrew calendars or anything), I hope someone will point it out so I can learn from my mistakes.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

[youtube]CyYBRe6kXgo[/youtube]
YouTube - A Song For You-Leon, Willie, and Ray

 

[Willamena]

As to Krishna's mother being a virgin.. well, I doubt it. Krishna was the eighth child of Devaki and Vasudeva--although I doubt it was by intercourse between a deity and a human, she was not a virgin.

I have not heard of Krishna's father being a carpenter before.

But it's there on the Internet! So it must be true!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

But it's there on the Internet! So it must be true!

Unfortunately that was written by a moron.

 

[Politesse]

Unfortunately that was written by a moron.

Several, probably. These things do have a way of growing as they make their way through the inbox circuit.

 

[fallingblood]

You refer to four fairy tales that conflict with one another on theological grounds and you claim that I make baseless claims about there not being an historical Jesus behind the myth. Brilliant claim Sherlock, there may very well be an historical Jesus but don't expect me to assume as you do when there is no evidence to support such a notion. I'm not a believer in fairy tales so excuse me if I don't jump to conclusions.

The histories of Harry Houdini also conflict with one another. Should we label him as mythical as well?

 

[fallingblood]

I can't give an exact thing, but I remember it being on a couple of documentaries that I watched... but I think the main idea is that they had scribes recording the significant events.

Fallingblood I think we agree more than we disagree... but if jesus was a faith healer... it destroys Christianity fundamentally.

I agree that we agree more than disagree.