Jesus: The Missing Years in the East

[godnotgod]

I think that you are right about this, but it seems as if some evangelists might have edited Psalms 22 and then reversed it into Christianity, hence the production of what some Christians could claim to be a whole prophetic package.

If you missed my original link, you should take a look here to see how the texts were manipulated to make them seem like prophecy.

Rejection of Pascal's Wager: Psalm 22:16: A Prophecy of the Crucifixion?

The researchers on this site come to the following conclusion, based on the evidence:

We are certain that there is no prophecy of the crucifixion in Psalm 22:16b.

 

[oldbadger]

If you missed my original link, you should take a look here to see how the texts were manipulated to make them seem like prophecy.

Rejection of Pascal's Wager: Psalm 22:16: A Prophecy of the Crucifixion?

The researchers on this site come to the following conclusion, based on the evidence:

We are certain that there is no prophecy of the crucifixion in Psalm 22:16b.

Thanks for the above. I missed that, before.
It looks like the opposition laughed themselves off the stage. Hope they didn't bump themselves too hard.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Yes, I understand what transliteration is.

Then why are you arguing that two different ways of spelling the same word make different words? There is not always one standard method of transliteration. For Semitic languages like Aramaic, for example, sometimes the vowel sounds are not included (e.g., to transliterate Satan would be stn) because technically these have no corresponding letters. Does it really matter if I write satan or stn?

You are at odds with some scholars who state that Galilean Aramaic is a real dialect

I'm really not. That's because most of what is sometimes "subsumed under the somewhat misleading name 'Galilean Aramaic'" is neither specifically Galilean, nor was it spoken during Jesus' day:
"The traditional name of this dialect derives from the fact that during the Amoraic Period (200-500 C.E.) the center of the Jewish population had shifted from Judea to Galilee, and the main centers of learning were Tiberias, Sepphoris, and Caesarea. However, the few inscriptions in this dialect, though mainly from Galilee, also come from such diverse places as the Jordan Valley (Jericho, Noaran, Ein Gedi), the Judean Hills (Hirbet Susiya, Samuca), and even from the northern Negev (Maon)"
(Emphases added)
Sokoloff, M. (1978). The Current State of Research on Galilean Aramaic. Journal of Near Eastern Studies, 37(2), 161-167.

What we know of whatever is distinct about Galilean Aramaic (and by distinct, I don't mean it is unique to Galilee- to the extent this dialect exists our evidence begins from 200CE onwards and is found in diverse places) is far too scarce for us to really know much about it. This is especially true of things like pronunciation.

and also at odds with the pe****ta.org writer

Who lied and claims to speak the language Jesus did and whose skill with languages is so bad that he can't even write in idiomatic English although he studied it for years (and whose only degree is in film). You'll have to excuse me for not taking the word of someone who wants to claim they grew up speaking Jesus' language some 18 centuries after it stopped existing.

that we are dealing with two different words, whose pronunciatios are distinctly different, with distinctly differing meanings.

If that were true, the we'd have two different Aramaic words. What are they?

What do you say the Aramaic word for 'destiny' is?

In Syriac? It's-

It's derived from a verbal root that means "to allot" or "to destine".

 

[Ingledsva]

And so the only point for me to ponder is whether Yeshua was a wonderful man who lost his trust in his Lord on the cross, or whether he was calling out his success, and since I believe in Historical Jesus, I'm drawn to the first of those.

All NT texts were written after Jesus' death.

They tell us a story.

The story says Jesus KNEW what was to happen to him - and took all the steps to make it happen.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

And this –

Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

So why would they then change or mess up the story at the end, and have Jesus call out "Why have you forsaken me?"

He set out to have something happen - and it did - and the verse should be "For this destiny thou has placed me. Triumph.

It isn't a good (or logical) story otherwise.

*

 

[godnotgod]

[

[/COLOR]
It's derived from a verbal root that means "to allot" or "to destine".

So how is it transliterated to English?

 

[godnotgod]

All NT texts were written after Jesus' death.

They tell us a story.

The story says Jesus KNEW what was to happen to him - and took all the steps to make it happen.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

And this –

Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

So why would they then change or mess up the story at the end, and have Jesus call out "Why have you forsaken me?"

He set out to have something happen - and it did - and the verse should be "For this destiny thou has placed me. Triumph.

It isn't a good (or logical) story otherwise.

*

Because we have the insertion of Psalm 22 to prove prophecy, could we also have some back-writing going on to make it look like Yeshu knew that he was to be crucified, as a means of fulfilling the blood sacrifice for sin redemption pointed to by Jesus at the Last Supper. For that matter, it has been strongly suggested that those very words were also put into his mouth, and that they are a reflection of the pagan Mithraic eucharistic rite.

The idea is that Rome and St.Paul both destroyed and overwrote the teachings of Yeshu with those of Mithra as a means of converting the tens of thousands of pagans in the new religion. The new doctrines had much wider appeal and were much easier to achieve, since all they required was belief, without real inner spiritual work, like meditation and yoga, which Yeshu allegedly practiced and taught.

It has been said that the Essene teachings were three-tiered, with the mysteries unknown yet to new initiates. It was these outer ring initiates who broke from the mystical tradition and became more evangelical. They never learned the inner mystical teachings. These were the first Christians. They were primarily interested in conversion and salvation, rather than divine union via intimate spirituality.

 

[Straw Dog]

I believe that there were more than enough sources of inspiration influencing the historical Jesus in the region where he grew up. I mean, there were all the different strands of Jewish thought floating around as well as many Greco-Roman schools of living. There's nothing in particular he seemed to realize that couldn't have been instigated by insights initially made in other schools in the region. It was an interesting time indeed, kind of like now.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

So how is it transliterated to English?

hlq' (the last letter is ʾĀlap). That's without the diacritic transliteration and thus is a more proper one.

 

[Shermana]

I believe that there were more than enough sources of inspiration influencing the historical Jesus in the region where he grew up. I mean, there were all the different strands of Jewish thought floating around as well as many Greco-Roman schools of living. There's nothing in particular he seemed to realize that couldn't have been instigated by insights initially made in other schools in the region. It was an interesting time indeed, kind of like now.

Exactly.

Apparently the only way Jesus could have learned about love, forgiveness, and not doing what you don't want done to you, is to travel to the East, because such concepts were nowhere to be found in Israel.

 

[Shermana]

and took all the steps to make it happen.

It says Jesus said "Take this cup from me if you will", in other words "Get me out of this if you don't mind!"

 

[Ingledsva]

All NT texts were written after Jesus' death.

They tell us a story.

The story says Jesus KNEW what was to happen to him - and took all the steps to make it happen.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

And this –

Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

So why would they then change or mess up the story at the end, and have Jesus call out "Why have you forsaken me?"

He set out to have something happen - and it did - and the verse should be "For this destiny thou has placed me. Triumph.

It isn't a good (or logical) story otherwise.

Because we have the insertion of Psalm 22 to prove prophecy, could we also have some back-writing going on to make it look like Yeshu knew that he was to be crucified, as a means of fulfilling the blood sacrifice for sin redemption pointed to by Jesus at the Last Supper. For that matter, it has been strongly suggested that those very words were also put into his mouth, and that they are a reflection of the pagan Mithraic eucharistic rite.

The idea is that Rome and St.Paul both destroyed and overwrote the teachings of Yeshu with those of Mithra as a means of converting the tens of thousands of pagans in the new religion. The new doctrines had much wider appeal and were much easier to achieve, since all they required was belief, without real inner spiritual work, like meditation and yoga, which Yeshu allegedly practiced and taught.

It has been said that the Essene teachings were three-tiered, with the mysteries unknown yet to new initiates. It was these outer ring initiates who broke from the mystical tradition and became more evangelical. They never learned the inner mystical teachings. These were the first Christians. They were primarily interested in conversion and salvation, rather than divine union via intimate spirituality.

Psalm 22 actually isn't a prophecy of Jesus.

As to the other - I also have read quite a bit about the Mithraic connection.

It is interesting.

*

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I also have read quite a bit about the Mithraic connection.

Including the bit about how the Mithras who in any way relates to Jesus post-dates not only Jesus but the gospels too?

 

[Ingledsva]

All NT texts were written after Jesus' death.

They tell us a story.

The story says Jesus KNEW what was to happen to him - and took all the steps to make it happen.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

And this –

Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

So why would they then change or mess up the story at the end, and have Jesus call out "Why have you forsaken me?"

He set out to have something happen - and it did - and the verse should be "For this destiny thou has placed me. Triumph.

It isn't a good (or logical) story otherwise.

It says Jesus said "Take this cup from me if you will", in other words "Get me out of this if you don't mind!"

Actually that is a different reading of the text. If you will - but not the will of we...

Even if he said exactly that - it does not equate to - why have you forsaken me.

I know a lot of you don't agree with me on this one - but - he had already backed away from the task when "they came to make him King," but he came back down, and made the choice to follow that path. There is no reason for him to feel forsaken at the point of what HE KNEW was going to happen.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father if it is thy will avert this cup/fate of mine from me; but yet not the will of me, contrariwise, this thy will be fulfilled.

*

 

[godnotgod]

Psalm 22 actually isn't a prophecy of Jesus.

As to the other - I also have read quite a bit about the Mithraic connection.

It is interesting.

*

No, Psalm 22 is not really a prophecy of Jesus's death and crucifixion; it was inserted to make it appear as if it is. I'm suggesting that what you posted along with the Mithraic rite, were also added later to dress up the story.

 

[godnotgod]

Including the bit about how the Mithras who in any way relates to Jesus post-dates not only Jesus but the gospels too?

That is debatable. The early church fathers complained about Mithraism preceding Christianity as a device of the devil in order to mislead Christians.

 

[godnotgod]

hlqt' (the last letter is ʾĀlap). That's without the diacritic transliteration and thus is a more proper one.

So can you provide an English pronunciation?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

So can you provide an English pronunciation?

To the extent that we can pronounce anything written in ancient languages, whether Aramaic, Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, etc., yes. Why?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

That is debatable.

Sure, providing one is debating without knowing the facts.

The early church fathers complained about Mithraism preceding Christianity as a device of the devil in order to mislead Christians.

They didn't. We've been through this. They did complain about paganism imitating Christianity just like Pagans claimed Christian thought pre-dated Christianity. That's why we can go to primary sources and find there not only isn't a trace of any pre-Christian Mithras but that there is a pre-Christian Mitra who is nothing lilke the 2nd century Mithras.

 

[godnotgod]

[/COLOR][/COLOR]
Sure, providing one is debating without knowing the facts.


They didn't. We've been through this. They did complain about paganism imitating Christianity just like Pagans claimed Christian thought pre-dated Christianity. That's why we can go to primary sources and find there not only isn't a trace of any pre-Christian Mithras but that there is a pre-Christian Mitra who is nothing lilke the 2nd century Mithras.

I guess, for one thing, it's just a coincidence that Mitra, Mithras, and Jesus are all solar deities.

 

[godnotgod]

To the extent that we can pronounce anything written in ancient languages, whether Aramaic, Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, etc., yes. Why?

You've claimed they are all the same word. So it should match 'sabachthani'. Does it?