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Jesus: The Missing Years in the East

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!

"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

"My God, My God, for this I was kept [this was My destiny-I was born for this]."


Hi....GnG....
Eli, Eli..... is one of those reported sayings that must make many Christians feel very uneasy. Here is their Saviour giving up and despairing. Most Christians would probably prefer to read something powerful like 'This....... my destiny....'

Eli Eli is one of those reports that amaze me, because it has survived for two millenia when so many devout evangelists might have loved to just alter ......

And so when I read the powerful, strong, 'This is me, doing my thing.....' reported sentence in the Aramaic, I don't believe that. I was sad to see that.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Only the "Aramaic" doesn't say this. It says: il, il, lamono shabakthoni. That is the Syriac version of eli, eli, lema sabachthani/mein got, mein gott, varum hast du mich verlassen/my god my god why have you forsaken me?

I disagree, for reasons having to do with meaning, but for now, two questions:

Do you think Jesus was confirming, via these words, the alleged 'prophecy' of Psalm 22"

Is the idea of being forsaken by God consistent with other things Jesus spoke in the Gospels?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I disagree, for reasons having to do with meaning
Ok, what do your reasons have to do with?


Do you think Jesus was confirming, via these words, the alleged 'prophecy' of Psalm 22"
I don't think that Jesus said this. I think it was placed upon his lips by others.

Is the idea of being forsaken by God consistent with other things Jesus spoke in the Gospels?
Yes. In particular, the gospels seem to take every possible advantage they can when it comes to OT references. Here, we have an OT reference. Like so many other places, it seems as if the author(s) wished to link the old with the new.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
No it hasn't. It's a quote from Psalms. It was around before Jesus and used by the earliest Christians to link Jesus in with prophecy.

Right, but it's a stretch and a half.

Here is an expanded discussion of the issue


Rejection of Pascal's Wager: Psalm 22:16: A Prophecy of the Crucifixion?

which concludes with:


In our long analysis we can make the following conclusions:
We are certain that there is no prophecy of the crucifixion in Psalm 22:16b. There are two alternate readings in the Hebrew text circulating in the time around the turn of the common era; the first, kaari ("like a lion"), obviously has no relation to any crucifixion; the second, kaaru may be meaningless, but even if it is meaningful, none of the meaning guessed at by the ancient independent versions (Septuagint, Jerome's Psalm, Symmachus and Aquila) or by modern scholars compels a reading of "piercing". None of the early Christian writers, right up to 150 CE, interpreted Psalm 22:16b to be a direct reference to the crucifixion.

The reading as it stands in the Masoretic Text, "like a lion" is still the most probable reading, for it fits into the imagery of the whole of Psalm 22 better than the guesses of modern scholars or the ancient translators.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Yes. In particular, the gospels seem to take every possible advantage they can when it comes to OT references. Here, we have an OT reference. Like so many other places, it seems as if the author(s) wished to link the old with the new.

By that you mean Psalm 22?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Right, but it's a stretch and a half.
Sure. But you realize the stretch is about whether or not the NT fulfills OT prophesy? That is, it's not whether or not the lines in the Greek, Latin, Syriac ("Aramaic"), Armenian, etc., version of the NT had this line. They all have this line. The wiki page you link to is whether or not the line in question can adequately be said to fulfill Psalms' prophecy.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
No it hasn't.

Oh dear...... you're supposed to know language. To my '.........is one of those reported sayings that must make many Christians feel very uneasy.'
......... you write 'No it hasn't'. Did you mean 'No, it doesn't?' That would work.

To that I reply...... Yes, it does ....... tend to show Jesus as less than God, less than a Saviour, less than salvation. And many Christians seem (to me) to have avoided discussing this report...... seem to have been uncomfortable with it. Yet it has remained, un-tampered with.

It's a quote from Psalms. It was around before Jesus and used by the earliest Christians to link Jesus in with prophecy. Try again.
And so it was written in a Psalm. And so because of this, you have decided that it is a lie, never actually cried out by Jesus, but 'inserted' to show prophesy? This point is surely foolish, because any number of writings from Psalms could have been used to more powerful and beneficial effect than a sentence which shows Jesus to have 'lost trust' in his Lord and given up his faith.

Try again.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
This is a spinoff from the thread: 'The Lost Years of Jesus', found here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/152801-lost-years-jesus.html

The question of whether he (Jesus/Yeshu/Issa/Yuz Aussaf) may have spent time in the Middle and Far East during his 18 or so missing years, and whether he may have survived the Crucifixion and returned there to live out his days and to die there has not been addressed.

Though there is no 'smoking gun' which clinches the question, the information pertaining to the notion of these travels far exceeds the paltry footnotes from the Christian sources themselves as to his whereabouts, and, taken as a whole, offer a far more compelling and, as far as I am concerned, convincing scenario. The very fact of missing accounts from the Christian world point to the simple idea of his not being present in the Near East at all. There are several aspects to this alternate story, some from Persia, others from India, Tibet, and Egypt. It is a large canvas, so I will leave it up to someone else to provide a starting point for our journey Eastward.

I yet await first-hand accounting from His travel agent...
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Or maybe a walking talking Nazarene Essene Jewish mystic, which is the main reason he had insight into the meaning of the Torah, and who lived only 10 miles from Nazareth at the Nazorean Essene monastery at Mt. Carmel, 'Nazorean' equating with 'Nazarene'.


Nuttier than rat crap in a pistachio factory.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Sure. But you realize the stretch is about whether or not the NT fulfills OT prophesy? That is, it's not whether or not the lines in the Greek, Latin, Syriac ("Aramaic"), Armenian, etc., version of the NT had this line. They all have this line. The wiki page you link to is whether or not the line in question can adequately be said to fulfill Psalms' prophecy.

Yes, of course. But is the phrase: 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?' in Psalm 22?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Only the "Aramaic" doesn't say this. It says: il, il, lamono shabakthoni. That is the Syriac version of eli, eli, lema sabachthani/mein got, mein gott, varum hast du mich verlassen/my god my god why have you forsaken me?

From pe****ta.org we have this comment:

Vic Alexander, with note: "34. And in the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice and said, "Eil, Eil, l'mana sh'wik-thani." That is, "My God, my God,* wherefore did you destine me?"* "

*15:34.3 Lit. Aramaic: "Eil, Eil, l'mana sh'wik-thani." This is the correct transliteration of the original words of Jesus Christ in Galilean Aramaic. Other transliterations indicate the second and third generation transliterations from Arabic and the Greek versions."
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
Ooh, do they come in a nice strawberry roan like this? Pink unicorns are in high demand!

Jones.jpg

No, but they do come in a mean, dark black. Of course the unicorn version only has one horn in the middle between the two curved horns. But I guess it would be qualified as a "tricorn" scientifically. :D

tumblr_mjov5qgBKT1qzxzwwo1_500.jpg


I foresee some excellent future book titles.

  • "Stealing Jesus"
  • "The Italian Job"
  • "Mission Implausible"
  • "Spanking Jesus" by Dr. Benjamin Spock
  • "Bill & Ted & Jesus Excellent Adventure"
  • "Jesus Christ Superstar Galactica"
  • "India can wait"
  • "Yoga with Jesus"

Yoga with Jesus is already taken. And it's very good if I might add.

Yoga

Read the last two paragraph's at the bottom of the page.


That's already taken. They named it 'Greek New Testament'

LMAO, phenominal sir.

Probably. But I have access to all that you do (and because I am a mere puppet serving their designs, I have access to even more). We can both compare the (at least a translation of) the Greek NT relative to an NT from another language. What's the difference?

But what neither of us have access to, is an actual transcript that was written, before the acceptance of Christianity as the state religion of Rome.

Only the "Aramaic" doesn't say this. It says: il, il, lamono shabakthoni. That is the Syriac version of eli, eli, lema sabachthani/mein got, mein gott, varum hast du mich verlassen/my god my god why have you forsaken me?

So you don't buy the idea that the word "WHY" was added in. So there is not transcript where the equivilant word "why" is not used?

How about the possible definitions of the english word "left" or "lost" as meaning "placed for a purpose"? Is there any possible translation of the Greek or Aramic where the word "left" could be used in a different context?

I don't think that Jesus said this. I think it was placed upon his lips by others.

Yes. In particular, the gospels seem to take every possible advantage they can when it comes to OT references. Here, we have an OT reference. Like so many other places, it seems as if the author(s) wished to link the old with the new.

So your opinion is that the writers of the NT placed this phrase in order to coordinate with OT prophesy. Why do you think this?

I have also heard that Psalm 22 was a reference to David sinning, and asking for forgiveness instead of being a prophecy. What is your opinion on this?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
From pe****ta.org we have this comment:

Vic Alexander, with note: "34. And in the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice and said, "Eil, Eil, l'mana sh'wik-thani." That is, "My God, my God,* wherefore did you destine me?"* "

*15:34.3 Lit. Aramaic: "Eil, Eil, l'mana sh'wik-thani." This is the correct transliteration of the original words of Jesus Christ in Galilean Aramaic. Other transliterations indicate the second and third generation transliterations from Arabic and the Greek versions."

Mat 27:46 My God, My God, For this destiny/reason thou has placed me.


There is obviously no abandonment as Jesus knew what was going to happen to him. This is a triumphant cry. Destiny accomplished.


He says this before his date with the cross...


Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Or this –

Mat 26:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.



*
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Mat 27:46 My God, My God, For this destiny/reason thou has placed me.

There is obviously no abandonment as Jesus knew what was going to happen to him. This is a triumphant cry. Destiny accomplished.

Yes, I think this sentiment of having fulfilled one's destiny via being 'set aside', or 'saved' is more in line than that of a man forsaken by his God. There is at least one place in the NT where Jesus is telling others that the Father will never abandon them, so Jesus must have had an even stronger conviction of this than his followers.

It all then seems to have been topped off with a final: "It is finished"
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
From an Aramaic primacy point of view:

The four first Gospels were written in Aramaic, not Greek. Jesus and His disciples spoke Aramaic and Hebrew, not Greek. Here are the true Words Christ spoke on the cross: Jesus really cried out, "My God, My God for this I was kept" (Matt. 27:46, Orig. Text)....

...All versions of the Gospels have retained these words in the original tongue. They have, however, given them a different meaning. Matthew, according to the Eastern version, does not translate them. This is because he wrote to the people who had seen Jesus and had heard Him preaching. It also seems probable that the later writers did not agree on the exact meaning of these words when they translated them into Greek. Aramaic is a very obscure language, and they didn't know it as well as they should have before they laid their translation into the scriptures. This term, even at present, is only used by the Aramaic-speaking people in Assyria, who speak the same language the Galileans spoke at the time of our Lord. This phrase in Aramaic means, "My God, My God, for this I was kept [this was My destiny-I was born for this]."

David did not quote Psalm 22:1 as a prophecy of the Lord. He spoke those words for himself (because he had many enemies). David was foolishly saying that God had forsaken him. This part of Psalm 22 was not a prophecy of Christ's death. Jesus did not quote this Psalm. If He had, He would have used Hebrew instead of Aramaic, and if He had translated it from Hebrew He would have used the Aramaic word "nashatani," which means "forsaken me," instead of the word "Shabakthani," which in this case means, "kept me." Even the soldiers who stood by the cross did not understand what Jesus said in that hour of agony and suffering. They thought that He was calling on Elijah because the word "Elijah" in Aramaic is "Elia," which is similar to the Word for God, "Eli."

Jesus Never Said, "My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?" by Tony Alamo
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
From an Essene point of view, however, the notion of a blood sacrifice for the remission of sin would have been out of the question. Essenes even abhorred animal sacrifice, while human sacrifice would have been seen as an abomination, and the sacrifice of a deity far more grave. As a Nazaerene Essene, Yeshu would have had no intention of being crucified in order to save mankind from eternal damnation by his sacrifice.

If the cry from the cross is a deliberate insertion by the writers of the NT to make his death appear to have been prophesied, then the Essene view makes even more sense.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Eil, Eil, l'mana sh'wik-thani."

This is really pretty devastating to your entire case. First, this is literally the same thing that is in the Greek NT, only instead of a transliteration from Aramaic into English it's transliterated from Aramaic into Greek. Regardless, the "Aramaic" (Syriac) of the Pe****ta has the same line as the Greek.

Second, what's especially interesting about this is that the Greek version needs more than just a transliteration. Many people read Greek compared to the precious few who read Aramaic. So in the Greek we get the transliteration and the translation: Ἠλὶ ἠλὶ λεμὰ σαβαχθάνι; τοῦτʼ ἔστιν· Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἱνατί με ἐγκατέλιπες. The first part is Aramaic, which is followed by a translation beginning with "that is, 'My god, my god, why do you forsake me?"

Here's the curious part. If the Pehistta were some original version, why does it also have both a transliteration and a translation? It makes no sense. Because in the Pe****ta, we find "My god my god, why have you forsaken me, that is, my god, my god, why have you forsaken me?" The transliteration that is in the Greek text is there, along with "that is" (which, in the Greek makes sense as the author uses it to go from the transliteration to the translation). Then the text gives the translation. Only, because both lines are in Syriac, the transliteration is a translation and the line is simply repeated.

This makes perfect sense when you realize that the Pe****ta isn't original. It's a translation of the Greek. In the Greek, the line isn't repeated because we first have a transliteration, not a translation. In the Pe****ta, the transliteration into Syriac gives us the translation and the line is simply redundant. Yet it's there. Why? Because it isn't original. It's a translation from the Greek, and the translators faithfully stuck the original line in there even though it doesn't make sense in Syriac.
 
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