Jesus was a Jew. When did his followers stop being Jews?

[Evie]

P

There were Christians in the earliest days of Christianity who believed in Jesus and yet still kept the Law, such as the Ebionites.

Paul tried to explain . To reason that now being free of what had them bound up in guilt because of their inability to keep the Law, why go back to it. I think he worded it 'back to hanging on a tree'. Even today many Christians who believe in Jesus are being taught they are still bound to keep the 10 commandments. Why did Jesus have to suffer a that He did if we are to remain in the same pit of tortured mind? He freed us from it. Belief in Him is the ONLY righteousness which man can attain.Just as Jesus did NOT return to his existence in the OT neither should we. He ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God.

 

[metis]

Belief in Him is the ONLY righteousness which man can attain.Just as Jesus did NOT return to his existence in the OT neither should we.

But the Torah and Tanakh say otherwise as they say that the Law is "perpetual" and "forever". Matter of fact, it says that if any self-proclaimed prophet says that the Law need not be followed they are a "false-prophet".

Jesus' take on the Law is much more complex than this, which I can explain, but I do have to leave for now. Please respond back to this post so it reminds me to deal with this later.

Thanx

 

[Evie]

But the Torah and Tanakh say otherwise as they say that the Law is "perpetual" and "forever". Matter of fact, it says that if any self-proclaimed prophet says that the Law need not be followed they are a "false-prophet".

Jesus' take on the Law is much more complex than this, which I can explain, but I do have to leave for now. Please respond back to this post so it reminds me to deal with this later.

Thanx

I

But the Torah and Tanakh say otherwise as they say that the Law is "perpetual" and "forever". Matter of fact, it says that if any self-proclaimed prophet says that the Law need not be followed they are a "false-prophet".

Jesus' take on the Law is much more complex than this, which I can explain, but I do have to leave for now. Please respond back to this post so it reminds me to deal with this later.

Thanx

First let me ask you this. Why did Jesus walk on water and float up in the air? Certainly not to 'show off'. In doing so He defied the law of gravity. But the law of gravity remained in existence. Otherwise everything on earth free standing would have flown off into space. Now, no laws put in place by God can be transgressed, but, Jesus demonstrated that He could transcend the law without displacing it. And that would apply to all laws implemented by God. All in place forever. So how was corrupted mankind going to be able to cope with the utterly impossible task of keeping the 10 commandments. By providing a way to do so without displacing any of His laws. Even God would not transgress His own laws. The way for any corrupt human being( and ALL are corrupt by nature), to be righteous in God's eyes, that being to obey every command unfailingly, was by substitution. By Jesus being the righteous one. And only by belief in Jesus and all He did can we be seen as righteous in God's eyes. And the 10 commandments are continually in existence but because He was perfect in God's eyes not having broken any of God's commandments, so are we. Jesus did not go back to the days of the OT He. ascended into Heaven and sits at the right Hand of God. So neither should we go back and live in the days of the OT BEFORE Jesus did all that He did to free us from the impossible. We will always fail, our corrupt nature will cause us to fail, but we can be genuinely remorseful and ask Jesus for forgiveness, which He will always do. But genuine repentance brings with it the desire to not repeat wrongs. Jesus knows true repentance in a person.

 

[allright]

Why must the Messiah be born of a virgin? Where are you getting this from?

But the Torah and Tanakh say otherwise as they say that the Law is "perpetual" and "forever". Matter of fact, it says that if any self-proclaimed prophet says that the Law need not be followed they are a "false-prophet".

Psalms says the Messiah will be both king and high priest. impossible under the law.

Thanx

 

[Akivah]

The new is in the old contained,
The old is in the new explained.

Interesting. We have something like the above, that describes the Christian bible.

If it's new, it isn't good.
If it's good, it isn't new.

 

[Evie]

I have just fully explained how the laws of God remain constant. And the only hope of redemption from the mess mankind was in, was via Jesus.

 

[Evie]

Jus

I have just fully explained how the laws of God remain constant. And the only hope of redemption from the mess mankind was in, was via Jesus.

just as the beautiful oak tree in fullness, it's boughs dripping with leaves would not want to go back and be an acorn again, neither would Jesus want to go back and be in the OT. Thus neither should any followers of Jesus. Jesus ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God. He is no longer back in the OT not having done all that He did.

 

[Evie]

Je

Jus

just as the beautiful oak tree in fullness, it's boughs dripping with leaves would not want to go back and be an acorn again, neither would Jesus want to go back and be in the OT. Thus neither should any followers of Jesus. Jesus ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God. He is no longer back in the OT not having done all that He did.

Jesus transcended the law. To transcend means : to exceed. Be greater than. So He exceeded the laws of the OT He did not displace them. But His transcendence is also the transcendence of all who believe in Him and follow Him. He does not expect perfection from us, knows it is an absolute impossibility. Jesus said: Only Believe. And genuine remorse when having done wrong. True repentance not empty words.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Since Jesus had no father thru a bloodline when Joseph married Mary he would become legally Joseph son and of the line of David

As for challenging my beliefs you need to take a beginners bible course, you don't have a clue what your taking about

There are two major factors involved as to the reason why Jesus is considered not to be the line of David.

A couple of questions arose for which first question focused upon looking at the major signifence that blood itself plays throughout the entire narrative of both Old and New Testaments, read carefully the prerequisites outlined for acceptance or rejection of blood offered, and note if any substitutions are allowable in the process of shedding blood in way of adopting something for another that is equal and acceptable.

You probably see where this is going.

Jesus is rejected by the Jews because it dosent fufill requirements of prophecy as it pertains to the Messiah. That should be the end of the matter.

Christians themselves would never accept any adoption or substitution if the blood of Christ proves to be less than genuine, the real McCoy. I'm sure it therefore must be Christ himself and no other will do.

Otherwise it dosent fufill the passion play as it's described in the New Testament and the reason Christ died for sins by shedding his blood. There it is again. Blood.

An adoption in lieu of the genuine article wouldn't work for Christians any more more than an adoption would work to be a fulfillment of Jewish prophecy.

Biggest mistake of Christianity is adopting a Jewish text as their own. (Pun intended?) eh. ....

 

[metis]

First let me ask you this. Why did Jesus walk on water and float up in the air?

I don't know-- I wasn't there. However, let me just say that I have very strong doubts he did either. We should always remember that when we're reading scripture, we're reading very subjective accounts, not objective history.

Jesus did not go back to the days of the OT He. ascended into Heaven and sits at the right Hand of God. So neither should we go back and live in the days of the OT BEFORE Jesus did all that He did to free us from the impossible.

So, are you going to rip the "O.T." out of your Bible and throw it into the garbage? Do you accept the "O.T." as being "the Word of God" as it says within it? If the "O.T." is so inconsequential, then why would anyone who takes that position really believe anything about there being a "Messiah" supposedly like Jesus? And what about the Commandments?

Let me continue on my next post to cover what I said I would do in my post #165.

 

[metis]

The Law, according to Torah, cannot be rescinded for Jews, but it is not binding on non-Jews. So, what about the different disputes dealing with the Law that we read in the "N.T."?

To me, the key is found in Jesus' response to the question "Which is the greatest Commandment of all". Basically, his response was love of God and love of humankind, and we have to remember that the word for "love" in Koine Greek was "agape", which implies an active "love". IOW, one just doesn't have love-- one lives love.

Now, there was a prevailing belief amongst some Jewish scholars that the main purpose of Torah was to create a more compassionate and just (fair) people and, eventually, world. The Hillel school seems to have gone in that direction but didn't take it to the extreme that Jesus appears to have.

So, trying to relate this and wrap it up briefly, Jesus' position is that applying the "law of love" (compassion and justice) fulfilled the Law itself, thus the details of the original Law only tried to point the direction as to how that could be done. However, the Hillel school and other Jewish schools would not take it that far.

So, what we're left with is that Jews within the Way had to at least at first follow the Law, but that it was unnecessary for non-Christians to convert to Judaism and pledge to the Law. Matter of fact, Paul takes it as a rejection of Jesus if they were to convert under the Law that would have the men becoming circumcised.

Therefore, to observant Jews, Jesus left the Law; but to Paul, Jesus was more important than the Law.

 

[omega2xx]

I

agree with quotes from Romans and Galations.

Good. I agree with some Hahai theology.

 

[omega2xx]

Interesting. We have something like the above, that describes the Christian bible.

If it's new, it isn't good.
If it's good, it isn't new.

Good info. I hope I can remember it.

 

[Evie]

I don't know-- I wasn't there. However, let me just say that I have very strong doubts he did either. We should always remember that when we're reading scripture, we're reading very subjective accounts, not objective history.

So, are you going to rip the "O.T." out of your Bible and throw it into the garbage? Do you accept the "O.T." as being "the Word of God" as it says within it? If the "O.T." is so inconsequential, then why would anyone who takes that position really believe anything about there being a "Messiah" supposedly like Jesus? And what about the Commandments?

Let me continue on my next post to cover what I said I would do in my post #165.

I made no such suggestion that the OT was not a necessary part. But the coming of Jesus fulfilled OT prophecy. Is Jesus to go back there even though He came as prophesied? And should you choose to not believe any of what Jesus said and did, and His sacrifice for humanity, that is entirely your prerogative. We all have a choice to believe or not believe. If there existed absolute proof then faith would be as nought. No, it is very necessary to believe without seeing.

 

[Evie]

With the imminent threat of nuclear war, the Christian belief is there to believe and accept. A precious gift from our Creator.

 

[RESOLUTION]

What do you suppose Jesus meant by 'to fulfil it'. Remember Jesus said that though you were told in the Mosaic Law an eye for an eye, I now tell you to turn the other cheek. I think it was from The Sermon on The Mount. Not sure where

If, you are on about the law and teachings of the Prophets then it is two fold.
He fulfilled the teachings of the Prophets about himself as Messiah. And he fulfilled the law because he never broke it. So he was perfect.

When Christ died and men spat at him, scorned, jeered and abused him and then brutally beat him, flogged him and murdered him he did nothing by way of retaliation. An eye for an eye was really about pay back for something a person did wrong.
But Christ taught that love forgives. So when someone offends you then turn the other cheek rather than pay back evil with evil.

Christ said:- " Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Turning the other cheek is about forgiveness and doing the right thing rather than repaying evil with evil,

If we obey Gods law then an eye for an eye is not necessary. For everyone who loves their neighbour will not harm him.

 

[Evie]

I a

Good. I agree with some Hahai theology.

I am NOT of Bahai belief, whatever it is . I have asked the forum staff to adjust my profile but so far it has not been done. I am a believer in God the Creator and His Word.

 

[Evie]

If, you are on about the law and teachings of the Prophets then it is two fold.
He fulfilled the teachings of the Prophets about himself as Messiah. And he fulfilled the law because he never broke it. So he was perfect.

When Christ died and men spat at him, scorned, jeered and abused him and then brutally beat him, flogged him and murdered him he did nothing by way of retaliation. An eye for an eye was really about pay back for something a person did wrong.
But Christ taught that love forgives. So when someone offends you then turn the other cheek rather than pay back evil with evil.

Christ said:- " Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Turning the other cheek is about forgiveness and doing the right thing rather than repaying evil with evil,

If we obey Gods law then an eye for an eye is not necessary. For everyone who loves their neighbour will not harm him.

The whole point of being Christian is accepting that We are unable to do what is right. Our corrupt bodies deem it that we will always do wrong. Paul said 'when will I be rid of this body if death. What I don't want to do I do and what I want to do I don't do.' And this was Paul speaking. As such, our only righteousness can ever be one of accepting the righteousness of Jesus. That gift is there as a result of all He suffered and did. We can try to do what is right, but to believe we attain even a speck of righteousness in the effort is a form of self delusion. Our corrupt nature deems that even our so- called good behaviour reeks with the essence of corruption.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Proves the point. There's no bloodline.

Mary is born of the priestly line as Elizabeth her cousin. They are descendants of Aaron.
Aarons wife Elisheba/ Elisheva was from the Tribe of Judah. Both Mary and Elizabeth were from a priestly family.

23 And Aaron took him Elisheba, daughter of Amminadab, sister of Naashon, to wife; and she bare him Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

Both Mary and Elizabeth are born of the tribe of Judah through Aaron and Elisheba.

Rabbis list Elisheba daughter of Amminadab among the important people and officials that were born to this tribe and call her “the mother of the priesthood” (Gen. Rabbah 97:8).
So not only did Mary count as the Tribe of Judah being married to Joseph but her line was also of the tribe of Judah.

 

[Evie]

An

The whole point of being Christian is accepting that We are unable to do what is right. Our corrupt bodies deem it that we will always do wrong. Paul said 'when will I be rid of this body if death. What I don't want to do I do and what I want to do I don't do.' And this was Paul speaking. As such, our only righteousness can ever be one of accepting the righteousness of Jesus. That gift is there as a result of all He suffered and did. We can try to do what is right, but to believe we attain even a speck of righteousness in the effort is a form of self delusion. Our corrupt nature deems that even our so- called good behaviour reeks with the essence of corruption.

d in addition, I must point to all the talk of the mosaic law and the 10 commandments. Even if it were at all possible( which it isn't), to lead what you believe to be a sinless life and you faithfully keep all the commandments, you yourself are still NOT righteous. Not in God's eyes. To believe that righteousness comes from good works is to deny Christ. You cannot have it both ways. But so many Christians keep mentally whipping themselves because they are taught by misguided leaders that they have to lead a sinless life. Of course we should do our best to lead a life which is right in God,s eyes, but no shred of righteousness will be gained. The 10 commandments remain constant. All laws installed by God remain constant. But as I fully explained earlier Jesus transcended the law. He did not transgress the law. This transcendence is our transcendence made possible by Jesus. And the OT had a vital role to play in the coming of Jesus. However, as I also illustrated in one if my earlier texts, just as the oak tree in it's fullness of towering splendour would not go back to being an acorn. Neither does Christ go back to the OT as a prophecy. He came, conquered sin and death and is now in full Glory in Heaven.