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Jesus was Myth

The argument that Jesus is either liar, lunatic, or God is meant to be the argument against people that accept Jesus as just a nice spiritual teacher. Jesus`s words in the gospel do not make that possible. It is not an argument of the existance of Jesus. That is a completely different topic and other evidence would be used to prove this.
 

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
Criteria such as this is intended, not as proof, but as potential evidence in the service of inference to best explanation.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
Ask yourself

Why would wee see progressions of concepts in scripture, where later authors are trying to embellish the original version. If they were creating whole cloth mythology, they wouldnt start by building embarrassing aspects for their character.

Take tekton for example. In Gmark he is a son of a Galilean tekton, which amounts to a displaced landless renter. In later gospels they are trying to hide this aspect.

Living in Nazareth is also a embarrssment, this little town was a hovel compared to the large Hellenistic cities in eyeshot where people lived in opulance.

Being baptized by John is also a embarrassment, and wee see the suthors tryinmg to cover this up as the stories evolved.

Even the crucifixion is a embarrassment, it was one of the most horrible and embarrassing ways one could be punished.

What switched me from the mythicist camp was to realize why Romans would create their religious character out of a peasant Jew, who's divinity they factaully paralleled against the living Emperor the "son of god"

They could have made it anyone, like the mythras deity. Instead we see Hellenistic Proselytes writing about a man and trying to somewhat cover up his flaws as the legend evolved in time.

Consider the following:

Wikipedia said:
Criterion of embarrassment

The criterion of embarrassment has its limitations and must always be used in concert with the other criteria. One limitation to the criterion of embarrassment is that clear-cut cases of such embarrassment are few and far between. A full portrait of Jesus could never be based on such few data. Another limitation stems from the fact that what we today might consider an embarrassment to the early Church was not necessarily an embarrassment in its own eyes. Embarrassing details may be included as an alternative to an even more embarrassing account of the same event. As a hypothetical example, Saint Peter's denial of Jesus could have been a substitution for an even greater misdeed of Peter.[7]

A good example of the second point is found in the stories of the Infancy Gospels. In one account from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, a very young Jesus is said to use his supernatural powers first to strike dead, and then revive, a playmate who had accidentally bumped into him.[8] If this tradition had been accepted as worthy of inclusion at some key juncture in the formation of the Christian Bible (and hence integrated in one way or another among the Canonical Gospels), arguably many modern Christians would find it quite embarrassing—especially strict believers in biblical inerrancy. But as is strongly suggested by the existence of this early non-canonical pericope, it must not have been embarrassing to some early Christians.[9][

A further limitation is the possibility that what could be classed as embarrassing could also be an intentionally created account designed to provoke a reaction. For instance, Saint Peter's denial of Jesus could have been written as an example of the consequences of denial. Matthew 10:32-33: "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

Introduction: Was Christianity Too Improbable to be False?

infidels.org said:
 
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Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
Carrier is a fringe 'expert'. That is not sufficient reason to discount him, but when someone takes on the appearance of a Carrier groupie you have, not an example of an informed position, but an example of selection bias.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Criteria such as this is intended, not as proof, but as potential evidence in the service of inference to best explanation.

But it is a story so why not leave it at that? People obviously took to the story, they liked it, and the story ended up being used as a basis for a religion to form upon. People believed every word of it, the Son of God, the miracles and the resurrection. When did it become a question of historical merit and why then did it become necessary to establish it as such? Why the need for a best explanation for a story? Why the criteria of embarrassment?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
What switched me from the mythicist camp was to realize why Romans would create their religious character out of a peasant Jew, who's divinity they factually paralleled against the living Emperor the "son of god."

That assumes that deliberate forgery was the motive rather than innocent but inaccurate revelations. Surely many ancient religious writings were the results of innocent but inaccurate revelations.

If the copies of the Gospels that we have today are largely similar to the original Gospels, the Romans obviously had nothing to do with them.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
What switched me from the mythicist camp was to realize why Romans would create their religious character out of a peasant Jew, who's divinity they factually paralleled against the living Emperor the "son of god."

That assumes that deliberate forgery was the motive rather than innocent but inaccurate revelations. Surely many ancient religious writings were the results of innocent but inaccurate revelations.

If the copies of the Gospels that we have today are largely similar to the original Gospels, the Romans obviously had nothing to do with them.

outhouse said:
They are all weak arguments

Are you referring to my post #264?
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
People believed every word of it,


Nope. in the beginning they were taken into context for the time period.

It was only popular for small groups, and most avoided it completely.


the Son of God,

Boloney


This was a term first given to the living Emperor

It was normal for living leaders to be attributed with divinity.

It was a obvious parallel to the Emperors divinity




the miracles and the resurrection.

Early on, do you even understand how many different mythological views there were of this?


When did it become a question of historical merit and why then did it become necessary to establish it as such?

We know it was not questioned early on that a living man had died for the people, and it was viewed as th eultimate sacrifice. Again, without question by those that were alive during the time stated that could easily refute the legend if a man had not been martyred at Passover.

These people questioned everything and had different views, heretics were everywhere and we have their writings. Yet only marcion some 150 years later had views of a spiritual Jesus.


Why the need for a best explanation for a story?

because it is theology written in mythology

Historians need to place things in context for the time period so mistakes are not made in determining what really happened.

Why the criteria of embarrassment


Duh
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
Carrier is a fringe 'expert'. That is not sufficient reason to discount him, but when someone takes on the appearance of a Carrier groupie you have, not an example of an informed position, but an example of selection bias.

But I am neutral on the issue of the historical Jesus issue since it is too complicated for me to adequately assess.

It is the content of Richard Carrier's arguments that are the most important, not the fact that he made them. What objections do you have to Richard Carrier's arguments that I posted, and to what I quoted from Wikipedia, and to what I quoted from Professor Mark Goodacre?

What I quoted from Wikipedia does not have anything to do with Richard Carrier.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
What switched me from the mythicist camp was to realize why Romans would create their religious character out of a peasant Jew, who's divinity they factually paralleled against the living Emperor the "son of god."

That assumes that deliberate forgery was the motive rather than innocent but inaccurate revelations. Surely many ancient religious writings were the results of innocent but inaccurate revelations.

If the copies of the Gospels that we have today are largely similar to the original Gospels, the Romans obviously had nothing to do with them.

outhouse said:
They are all weak arguments

Are you referring to my post #264?
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
If the copies of the Gospels that we have today are largely similar to the original Gospels, the Romans obviously had nothing to do with them.

Gmark the oldest, probably writtin in Syria for a Roman audience.

Isnt up for debate, it is obvious it was explained to non Jews so they would understand Judaism.

By then the movement had already had quite the division away from Judaism.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
Carrier's links.

But you have not explained how Carrier is wrong. I doubt that you read all of what I posted since those links contain large amounts of texts.

What about what I posted from Wikipedia, and from Professor Mark Goodacre?
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
That assumes that deliberate forgery was the motive rather than innocent but inaccurate revelations.

No

We are talking about Hellenist already perverting one religion [Judaism] so having these people parallel others through mythology is quite normal.

Its not forgery, it is building divinity so that their character would be appealing for everyone to follow.

People wrote using mythology and these legends grew in oral tradition before they were ever recorded.

These pieces were all compilations


Another point and we see it within Judaism, they wrote using mythology to explain parables and metaphors, which LESSONS were viewed as what was really important.

Even then these were never ment to be literal pieces.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
But you have not explained how Carrier is wrong. I doubt that you read all of what I posted since those links contain large amounts of texts.

What about what I posted from Wikipedia, and from Professor Mark Goodacre?

Goodacre is a clown.

Sorry call him prof if you want, I wont waist my time with nonsense like his.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If you only follow fringe mentality conspiracy nutters, you tend to take on their bad habits.

I think some are worth looking into, just to see how much merit they may possibly have, but many of these cross into lines of utter garbage passed off as hypothesis
 
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