Jesus was pro-drinking

[Lyndon]

Freshly made wine IS grapejuice with no alcoholic content, by the way. The alcoholic part takes months or years of fermentation.

 

[ether-ore]

Actually, the passage doesn't address the conditions of the guest at the wedding feast. It doesn't say, "Look at these guests. They're all drunk". What is stated is a rhetorical comment by the master of the banquete to the bridegroom as way of illustration that it's not normal for the good wine to be served last. It has nothing to do with the actual guests being drunk or not at that wedding, but merely pointing out this is very odd he should serve better wine later. It's a way to say this is what others do to make a good impression of the guest by serving the best first before they're too drunk to care anymore. Would the writer of John have Jesus attending a drunken wedding feast with the guests throwing up over in the corner? It's not hard to assume they weren't drunk, and these are simply the words of the master of the banquete to speak of what happened that the author of John has speaking to make a point that Jesus' wine was superior.

It is safe to say however that the wine served has the capability of getting people drunk. So those who say the Bible forbids drinking any alcoholic beverage whatsoever are stretching things a bit much. Getting smashed out of your mind, or living one's life as a drunk is what is frowned upon. He was not drinking grape juice at the last supper.

I don't think anyone was claiming that the wine in question wasn't fermented. Of course it was, and certainly it had the capacity to get people drunk if they drank too much. Of course you are correct in your observation that the passage says nothing about the condition of the guests at the feast. I think the important thing to remember is that the customs of the time in that culture suggest that getting drunk at a wedding would have been unacceptable especially in light of all of the other strictures of Mosaic law. All of this effort to try an justify getting drunk these days is a bit puzzling to me. If someone is determined to get drunk; where is the necessity to point to Jesus for the justification? I really don't believe that justification exists.

 

[Windwalker]

All of this effort to try an justify getting drunk these days is a bit puzzling to me. If someone is determined to get drunk; where is the necessity to point to Jesus for the justification? I really don't believe that justification exists.

Isn't it kind of the same thing as trying to make Jesus a Republican, Capitalist, gun-toting NRA supporting, American Patriot who protects the Flag of the U.S.A? Jesus, flag, eagle | Religious Pics | Pinterest

 

[ether-ore]

Isn't it kind of the same thing as trying to make Jesus a Republican, Capitalist, gun-toting NRA supporting, American Patriot who protects the Flag of the U.S.A? Jesus, flag, eagle | Religious Pics | Pinterest

Since God gave us free agency, I do believe it is safe to say that God is pro-freedom and that that carries with it the necessity of defending those freedoms. While Christ was indeed also in favor of charity, all scripture tells me that that had to do with individual voluntary charity. If what you said was said in a pejorative sense, indicating that the opposite side of the political spectrum (socialism) is preferable, then I suggest that that kind of "charity" (at the point of a government gun) is not what Christ had in mind. When Christ told the rich man to sell all that he had, give to the poor and follow Him, Christ did not say anything about forming a government agency to take the rich man's money by force. Christ intends charity to be voluntary.

 

[Windwalker]

Since God gave us free agency, I do believe it is safe to say that God is pro-freedom and that that carries with it the necessity of defending those freedoms. While Christ was indeed also in favor of charity, all scripture tells me that that had to do with individual voluntary charity. If what you said was said in a pejorative sense, indicating that the opposite side of the political spectrum (socialism) is preferable, then I suggest that that kind of "charity" (at the point of a government gun) is not what Christ had in mind. When Christ told the rich man to sell all that he had, give to the poor and follow Him, Christ did not say anything about forming a government agency to take the rich man's money by force. Christ intends charity to be voluntary.

Ah, I see. Jesus taught that freedom meant we should defend it with armed forces. I always thought the freedom that Jesus taught was a freedom of the spirit from the bonage of sin, that his kingdom was not of this world. And that when he spoke to the rich man to sell all he had and give to the poor, it was a point of illustration to the rich man that he was attached to his possessions, that they prevented him from letting go to see the kingdom of God. I guess maybe Jesus was instead teaching a political system for governments to follow in his name, pasting his image over the flag of their countries as some sort of validation for their political systems against those in another party whom they vilify as not standing for the freedom Jesus taught.

I guess Jesus was a Republican after all, and the Bible can be used to support whatever one believes in, such as getting drunk or high.

 

[Lyndon]

Even atheists are using the Bible as an excuse to get drunk, I guess they are also using it as an excuse to vote Republican.

 

[Windwalker]

Even atheists are using the Bible as an excuse to get drunk, I guess they are also using it as an excuse to vote Republican.

Jesus believes what I believe, and so should you, because he does.

 

[ether-ore]

Ah, I see. Jesus taught that freedom meant we should defend it with armed forces. I always thought the freedom that Jesus taught was a freedom of the spirit from the bonage of sin, that his kingdom was not of this world. And that when he spoke to the rich man to sell all he had and give to the poor, it was a point of illustration to the rich man that he was attached to his possessions, that they prevented him from letting go to see the kingdom of God. I guess maybe Jesus was instead teaching a political system for governments to follow in his name, pasting his image over the flag of their countries as some sort of validation for their political systems against those in another party whom they vilify as not standing for the freedom Jesus taught.

I guess Jesus was a Republican after all, and the Bible can be used to support whatever one believes in, such as getting drunk or high.

I was referring to defending freedom within the boundaries of our own country in maintaining the original constitution against creeping socialism. I happen to believe that the US should not be so much involved in foreign affairs... that we should, as George Washington said, be free of foreign entanglements. I don't like sending our troops overseas to fight in foreign wars any more than you do.

 

[Lyndon]

Jesus obviously would have supported socialism, you don't seen to understand what socialism is.

 

[ChristineES]

Of course Jesus drank wine, it's pretty well known. Drinking, in my faith, is not a sin: What would be sinful would be drinking to the point of staggering (getting very drunk). Drinking wine with dinner would not cause drunkenness, drinking a couple of cold beers after a hard, hot day at work would not cause drunkenness. They say that drinking wine and beer in moderation can be beneficial. Edited to add: I personally don't drink at all: Many members of my family were alcoholics and my brother died of cirrhosis of the liver as did my maternal aunt.

 

[AnnaCzereda]

Let's consider the Bible. When he did his first miracle, he turned water into wine and the guy at the wedding responded that he saved the best wine for last, when normally people were too drunk to tell that it tasted terrible. But now it tasted great.

The Bible is not to be taken literally but allegorically. Jesus compared himself to a bridegroom in some parables. The Church is God's bride. The miracle at Cana foretells the Last Supper during which Jesus, the bridegroom, turned wine into his blood and gave it to his disciples and, subsequently, to all the faithful to drink. The Cana also foreshadows Jesus' death on Calvary, where he spilled his blood on the cross to save mankind. It was the feast of blood. Wine here is a symbol of spirituality and God's blood, which saves humans and gives them immortality.

 

[ether-ore]

The Bible is not to be taken literally but allegorically. Jesus compared himself to a bridegroom in some parables. The Church is God's bride. The miracle at Cana foretells the Last Supper during which Jesus, the bridegroom, turned wine into his blood and gave it to his disciples and, subsequently, to all the faithful to drink. The Cana also foreshadows Jesus' death on Calvary, where he spilled his blood on the cross to save mankind. It was the feast of blood. Wine here is a symbol of spirituality and God's blood, which saves humans and gives them immortality.

Interesting, I never really though about the marriage at Cana in those terms.

 

[Etritonakin]

Drinking alcohol isn't inherently wrong, according to the bible.

It can lead to other things and cause problems, so it is wise to moderate its use.

Here is a passage about the feast of tabernacles in the OT .....(in addition to the tithe given to support the priesthood, people saved ten percent of their increase for the keeping of the holy days -mostly the feast of tabernacles)

Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. 24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: 25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

 

[Straw Dog]

Yes, drinking in moderation may be beneficial. There's a golden mean, like slightly less than two beers, where we can more easily forget ourselves and get immersed in the moment. Too much and we can become self-absorbed. It's a fine line and probably doesn't work well overall as a spiritual tool.

 

[psychoslice]

Where is the sin of getting drunk, my god I can think of a lot worse things than being drunk, plus back then the water wasn't that great, so drinking alcohols would be a good thing, and of course if Jesus did exist he would have been into it.

 

[psychoslice]

The whole story to me is nothing more than a metaphor, our old self, or the carnal self needs to be renewed to be one in God, so we are like the old wine, made into the pure and best wine, that simple, the marriage feast is our marriage into one with Christ, that simple again .

 

[Kapalika]

To those saying they were not drunk...

"And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now."

John 2:10 KJV - And saith unto him, Every man at the - Bible Gateway

Take any translation you want, the implication is still there even if you interpret that as not meaning drunk in the same sense.

Also I'm not really sure why people make this distinction of how much you should or shouldn't drink in terms of beers. You *can* get drunk off of two beers/drinks if you drink them fast enough. Volume has little to do with it, and eating only delays it, it doesn't reduce the impact of how much you drink. It's more meaningful to talk about how intoxicated you think is too much, in a real measurable way like BAC.

As for the guy who pointed out the verse in Luke, that only proves that the Bible is inconsistent on the matter, but anyone with half a brain knows that a lot in it is inconsistent from a cursory reading.

Another atheists quoting scripture thread......

What we have is an atheist holding Jesus responsible for miracles he performed in the bible, surely something is wrong with this picture.

Even atheists are using the Bible as an excuse to get drunk, I guess they are also using it as an excuse to vote Republican.

I was using the verse as a reference point to bring up inconsistency within said religion from what adherents claim and what their bible says, that's what debating is about, starting these kinds of dialogues. The fact that you try to turn me pointing out something in your books into some kind of misleading personal attack on me is just deceitful. (For anyone who didn't catch it he's using trying to insinuate that I secretly believe in the Bible, probably a variant on that idea).

My religion or lack there of have no relevance here. I'm here to debate about a specific passage in that religion's bible, not my beliefs. So of course I am going to quote the Christian bible. I was making a point from "in-universe" as it's commonly called with other literary works.

Freshly made wine IS grapejuice with no alcoholic content, by the way. The alcoholic part takes months or years of fermentation.

wine;

"an alcoholic drink made from fermented grape juice."

If it isn't fermented, it can't be wine. If you want to address a real point, how about you explain why, and I'll put this disclaimer so my words won't be twisted, but why, according to the Christian bible, Jesus turned the water into wine, instead of something as simple as clean, safe drinking water? If he wasn't okay with drinking?

 

[Lyndon]

You need to make up your own ideas about drinking and leave the Bible and quoting scripture to real Christians. And quit falsely accusing me of making personal attacks.

 

[psychoslice]

What on earth is a real Christian, I have never meet one.

 

[Lyndon]

You must not get out much!!