IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Well of course. Human sacrifice is an abomination.
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Jewish Messiah
- Thread starter Rival
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Ebionite
Well-Known Member
No, Christians got their name at Antioch, those who followed the Messiah were called the people of the way.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There were a number of different names at different times. Christian is the one that stuck.
Clear said :
1) REGARDING THE ISSUE OF WHETHER PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS THE SAVIOR/MESSIAH/CHRIST ARE CHRISTIANS
I strongly agree that "Christ" is a term typically used in the context of Christianity.
That should have been obvious from the very start.
If someone believes in the Messiah Jesus Christ, they are a Christian.
It is also perfectly fine to use the term "Messiah" in reference to the Christ Jesus in the context of Christianity since the meanings of the terms are equivalents.
Both refer to "the anointed" as the dictionaries, etymologies, translations, and sacred textual examples demonstrate in post #378)
2) REGARDING THE EMERGENCE OF RABBINIC JUDAISM WHICH ANATHEMATIZES THE SACRIFICE OF THE MESSIAH
I agree that the rabbinic Jewish movement (i.e the Judaism that did not accept the Messiah) believed that various animals could be used as sacrifice to atone for their personal sins, they rejected the idea that the Messiah would sacrifice himself.
However, the Messianic Jews (i.e. the Judaism that DID accept the Messiah) believes that the sacrifice of the Messiah was perfectly expected according to torah.
The textual Torah is similar for Jews who accepted and are accepting Messiah Jesus versus the Jews who did not accept the Messiah Jesus.
What is different, in the main is the different interpretation of Torah.
3) REGARDING THE INCREASING ACCEPTANCE OF THE MESSIAH BY JEWS NOWADAYS
As the Messianic Jewish movement (i.e. the Judaism that accepted the Messiah) continues to enlarge so much faster than the Rabbinic Jewish sect, I expect that in the future the majority of Jews will be those that have accepted the Messiah Jesus as I explained in post 363 if that trend continues and especially if that trend speeds up.
Ebionite replied : No, Christians got their name at Antioch, those who followed the Messiah were called the people of the way."
You are discussing WHERE they were first called Christians while I am simply describing how the label "Christian" applies.
Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ can be accurately called a "Christian".
REGARDING PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST BEING CALLED CHRISTIANS
We will have to agree that the people on the planet where most people live nowadays call individuals who believe in Jesus Christ, "Christians" and people who live on the planet where you live can call them "the way" if you want.
REGARDING HISTORICAL SEMANTIC GAMES
IF we are going to play historical-semantic games then I must insist you are wrong regarding ancient Christians being called "the way".
The early Christians were never called "the way" in ancient cities in the first century or before that time.
You can not find a single documents from this period that call Christians "the way".
Clear
1) REGARDING THE ISSUE OF WHETHER PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS THE SAVIOR/MESSIAH/CHRIST ARE CHRISTIANS
I strongly agree that "Christ" is a term typically used in the context of Christianity.
That should have been obvious from the very start.
If someone believes in the Messiah Jesus Christ, they are a Christian.
It is also perfectly fine to use the term "Messiah" in reference to the Christ Jesus in the context of Christianity since the meanings of the terms are equivalents.
Both refer to "the anointed" as the dictionaries, etymologies, translations, and sacred textual examples demonstrate in post #378)
2) REGARDING THE EMERGENCE OF RABBINIC JUDAISM WHICH ANATHEMATIZES THE SACRIFICE OF THE MESSIAH
I agree that the rabbinic Jewish movement (i.e the Judaism that did not accept the Messiah) believed that various animals could be used as sacrifice to atone for their personal sins, they rejected the idea that the Messiah would sacrifice himself.
However, the Messianic Jews (i.e. the Judaism that DID accept the Messiah) believes that the sacrifice of the Messiah was perfectly expected according to torah.
The textual Torah is similar for Jews who accepted and are accepting Messiah Jesus versus the Jews who did not accept the Messiah Jesus.
What is different, in the main is the different interpretation of Torah.
3) REGARDING THE INCREASING ACCEPTANCE OF THE MESSIAH BY JEWS NOWADAYS
As the Messianic Jewish movement (i.e. the Judaism that accepted the Messiah) continues to enlarge so much faster than the Rabbinic Jewish sect, I expect that in the future the majority of Jews will be those that have accepted the Messiah Jesus as I explained in post 363 if that trend continues and especially if that trend speeds up.
Ebionite replied : No, Christians got their name at Antioch, those who followed the Messiah were called the people of the way."
You are discussing WHERE they were first called Christians while I am simply describing how the label "Christian" applies.
Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ can be accurately called a "Christian".
REGARDING PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST BEING CALLED CHRISTIANS
We will have to agree that the people on the planet where most people live nowadays call individuals who believe in Jesus Christ, "Christians" and people who live on the planet where you live can call them "the way" if you want.
REGARDING HISTORICAL SEMANTIC GAMES
IF we are going to play historical-semantic games then I must insist you are wrong regarding ancient Christians being called "the way".
The early Christians were never called "the way" in ancient cities in the first century or before that time.
You can not find a single documents from this period that call Christians "the way".
Clear
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Ebionite
Well-Known Member
No, an a opinion and a simple description are different things.
Because they were not the people of the way.`
POST ONE OF TWO
1) REGARDING “THE WAY” AS A LABEL APPLIED TO EARLY MESSIANIC JUDAISM / CHRISTIANITY
Ebionite said : “The original followers were called the people of the way, not Christians.” (post #366)
Clear responded : I very much Agree with this.
Outside of the semantic games, the plan of God for man involving the Messiah Jesus was called "the Way", and other terms as well.
For examples :
It was described by Jewish 4th Ezra as “the way of the most high” when the prophet Ezra chastised the Israelites for not following in “the way” by speaking of those who "... have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his Law, and who have hated those who fear God " Fourth Book of Ezra 7: 75-87;
Judeo-Christian Paul uses the term in speaking of Messianic Judaism (i.e. “Christianity”) by expounding "unto him the way of God more perfectly.” Acts 18:26,
Judeo-Christian Odes of Solomon speaks of this Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity) as "the way of his paths" thus the prophet said : "he who knew and exalted me is the Most High in all his perfection. 8 And he glorified me by his kindness, and raised my understanding to the height of truth. 9 And from there he gave me the way of his paths, and I opened the doors which were closed. 10 And I shattered the bars of iron,....#17:3,6-15;
Jewish Dead Sea Scrolls 1Q and 4Q describe the recalcitrant Jews and others not following correct religion since “they did not choose the wa[y o]f your [heart] nor attend to Your word, but they said concerning the vision of knowledge, ‘it is not sure,’ ; and concerning the way of your heart, ‘It is not the way.’ THANKSGIVING PSALMS - Col. 12:17-18 , 1QH + 4Q432 frag.3
4Q describes “…the secret of the way things are" in describing some of the religious history of the earth. 4Q418 Frag. 77
The Prophet Ezra speaks of "the way of the Most High" in saying : "I strive to understand the way of the Most High and to search out part of his judgment. The Fourth Book of Ezra 5:23,33,38-40; ”
The Didache describes Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity) as "the way of life" saying : "13 You must not forsake the Lord’s commandments, but must guard what you have received, neither adding nor subtracting anything. 14 In church you shall confess your transgressions, and you shall not approach your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life.. Didache 4:14 ;
The prophet and apostle Peter describes messianic Judaism of Jesus as "the way of righteousness" saying : "20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Pet 2:20-21;
The Prophet and apostle Peter also calls Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity) as "the way of truth" saying : "2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 2 Pet 1:21- 2:1-2;
Hermas describes the Gospel as "the way": and ""the way of righteousness" saying : "“For the way of righteousness is straight, but that of unrighteousness is crooked. But follow the straight and level way, and leave the crooked one alone. 3 For the crooked way has no paths but only uneven ground and many obstacles, and is rough and thorny. ... But those who follow the straight path walk smoothly and without stumbling, for it is neither rough nor thorny. You see, then, that it is more advantageous to follow this way.” 5 “I am pleased, sir,” I said, “to follow this way.” “So follow it,” he said, “and whoever turns to the Lord with all his heart will follow it.” Hermas 35:2-5;
The prophet Ezra also tells us that he commanded the Israelites to follow "the way of the Lord" saying : “2And he commanded them that they should guard the way of the Lord so that they might do righteousness... Jubilees (the book of division) 20:2, 3;
The Coptic Psalm book calls Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity) "the way of truth" thusly : "When the Holy Spirit came, he revealed to us the way of truth and taught us that there are two Natures, that of the Light and that of the Darkness, separated from each other since the beginning.” THE COPTIC PSALM-BOOK Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11);
Barnabas called Christianity "the way of light" thusly : “This, therefore, is the way of light; if anyone desires to make his way to the designated place, let him be diligent in his works.” The Epistle of Barnabas P 185 19:1; 20
“...Be on your guard now, and do not be like certain people; that is, do not continue to pile up your sins while claiming that your covenant is irrevocably yours, because in fact those people lost it completely in the following way, when Moses had just received it. ...But by turning to idols they lost it.. The Epistle of Barnabas P 165 4:6;
Speaking of the Jews, the prophet Ezra teaches that the prophetic gifts given to Israel were taken away from them because they did not "Keep the ways" of God, saying : but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. 32 And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;
In summary, if we are not speaking inside a semantic game, I very much agree with you that both before and after Christ, Judeo-Christian texts describe the gospel of truth of Messianic Judaism/Christianity as "the way" in various formulaic references.
2) REGARDING ACTS 19 AND PAULS EFFORTS TO SPREAD THE TRUTH AMONG THE RABBINIC JEWS
Ebionite quoted Acts 19:9 : Act 19:9 - But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
You did not explain why you quoted this verse but there is more context to it.
For example : Not only is this verse a fulfillment of the above verses that speak of the way of truth and righteousness being evil spoken of by the rabbinic Jews and others, the verses surrounding this verse explain the context of Paul confuting the Jews as he demonstrated Jesus was the Messiah they were waiting for.
Acts 19:8 tells us that Paul spake in the synagogues for three months : “And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, arguing and pleading about the kingdom of God;
Acts 8:28 – for he [Paul] powerfully confuted the Jews in public, showing by the scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.” Then the verse you quoted described the Jews of the synagogue became stubborn and “spake evil” of the way of the most high, the way of righteousness, the way of is paths, the way of life, the way of truth, the way of light, (whatever one wants to call the way of Messianic Judaism or Christianity).
The next few verses also describe why Messianic Judaism or Christianity spread so very quickly and widely while rabbinic Judaism that did not accept the Messiah remained a much smaller sect than the Judaism that accepted the Messiah Jesus.
As the prophet Ezra tells us, God took the prophetic gifts away from Israel and had given these over to the Christians (i.e. the Messianic Judaism that had accepted the Messiah) because the normative Jews apostatized over and over.
The prophet Ezra tells the Jews : “…you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. 32 And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “ Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;
And the prophetic/revalatory gifts which God had taken from the Jews, he then gave to the Christians, (i.e. to Messianic Judaism which had recognized and accepted the Messiah. )
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
1) REGARDING “THE WAY” AS A LABEL APPLIED TO EARLY MESSIANIC JUDAISM / CHRISTIANITY
Ebionite said : “The original followers were called the people of the way, not Christians.” (post #366)
Clear responded : I very much Agree with this.
Outside of the semantic games, the plan of God for man involving the Messiah Jesus was called "the Way", and other terms as well.
For examples :
It was described by Jewish 4th Ezra as “the way of the most high” when the prophet Ezra chastised the Israelites for not following in “the way” by speaking of those who "... have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his Law, and who have hated those who fear God " Fourth Book of Ezra 7: 75-87;
Judeo-Christian Paul uses the term in speaking of Messianic Judaism (i.e. “Christianity”) by expounding "unto him the way of God more perfectly.” Acts 18:26,
Judeo-Christian Odes of Solomon speaks of this Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity) as "the way of his paths" thus the prophet said : "he who knew and exalted me is the Most High in all his perfection. 8 And he glorified me by his kindness, and raised my understanding to the height of truth. 9 And from there he gave me the way of his paths, and I opened the doors which were closed. 10 And I shattered the bars of iron,....#17:3,6-15;
Jewish Dead Sea Scrolls 1Q and 4Q describe the recalcitrant Jews and others not following correct religion since “they did not choose the wa[y o]f your [heart] nor attend to Your word, but they said concerning the vision of knowledge, ‘it is not sure,’ ; and concerning the way of your heart, ‘It is not the way.’ THANKSGIVING PSALMS - Col. 12:17-18 , 1QH + 4Q432 frag.3
4Q describes “…the secret of the way things are" in describing some of the religious history of the earth. 4Q418 Frag. 77
The Prophet Ezra speaks of "the way of the Most High" in saying : "I strive to understand the way of the Most High and to search out part of his judgment. The Fourth Book of Ezra 5:23,33,38-40; ”
The Didache describes Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity) as "the way of life" saying : "13 You must not forsake the Lord’s commandments, but must guard what you have received, neither adding nor subtracting anything. 14 In church you shall confess your transgressions, and you shall not approach your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life.. Didache 4:14 ;
The prophet and apostle Peter describes messianic Judaism of Jesus as "the way of righteousness" saying : "20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Pet 2:20-21;
The Prophet and apostle Peter also calls Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity) as "the way of truth" saying : "2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 2 Pet 1:21- 2:1-2;
Hermas describes the Gospel as "the way": and ""the way of righteousness" saying : "“For the way of righteousness is straight, but that of unrighteousness is crooked. But follow the straight and level way, and leave the crooked one alone. 3 For the crooked way has no paths but only uneven ground and many obstacles, and is rough and thorny. ... But those who follow the straight path walk smoothly and without stumbling, for it is neither rough nor thorny. You see, then, that it is more advantageous to follow this way.” 5 “I am pleased, sir,” I said, “to follow this way.” “So follow it,” he said, “and whoever turns to the Lord with all his heart will follow it.” Hermas 35:2-5;
The prophet Ezra also tells us that he commanded the Israelites to follow "the way of the Lord" saying : “2And he commanded them that they should guard the way of the Lord so that they might do righteousness... Jubilees (the book of division) 20:2, 3;
The Coptic Psalm book calls Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity) "the way of truth" thusly : "When the Holy Spirit came, he revealed to us the way of truth and taught us that there are two Natures, that of the Light and that of the Darkness, separated from each other since the beginning.” THE COPTIC PSALM-BOOK Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11);
Barnabas called Christianity "the way of light" thusly : “This, therefore, is the way of light; if anyone desires to make his way to the designated place, let him be diligent in his works.” The Epistle of Barnabas P 185 19:1; 20
“...Be on your guard now, and do not be like certain people; that is, do not continue to pile up your sins while claiming that your covenant is irrevocably yours, because in fact those people lost it completely in the following way, when Moses had just received it. ...But by turning to idols they lost it.. The Epistle of Barnabas P 165 4:6;
Speaking of the Jews, the prophet Ezra teaches that the prophetic gifts given to Israel were taken away from them because they did not "Keep the ways" of God, saying : but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. 32 And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;
In summary, if we are not speaking inside a semantic game, I very much agree with you that both before and after Christ, Judeo-Christian texts describe the gospel of truth of Messianic Judaism/Christianity as "the way" in various formulaic references.
2) REGARDING ACTS 19 AND PAULS EFFORTS TO SPREAD THE TRUTH AMONG THE RABBINIC JEWS
Ebionite quoted Acts 19:9 : Act 19:9 - But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
You did not explain why you quoted this verse but there is more context to it.
For example : Not only is this verse a fulfillment of the above verses that speak of the way of truth and righteousness being evil spoken of by the rabbinic Jews and others, the verses surrounding this verse explain the context of Paul confuting the Jews as he demonstrated Jesus was the Messiah they were waiting for.
Acts 19:8 tells us that Paul spake in the synagogues for three months : “And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, arguing and pleading about the kingdom of God;
Acts 8:28 – for he [Paul] powerfully confuted the Jews in public, showing by the scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.” Then the verse you quoted described the Jews of the synagogue became stubborn and “spake evil” of the way of the most high, the way of righteousness, the way of is paths, the way of life, the way of truth, the way of light, (whatever one wants to call the way of Messianic Judaism or Christianity).
The next few verses also describe why Messianic Judaism or Christianity spread so very quickly and widely while rabbinic Judaism that did not accept the Messiah remained a much smaller sect than the Judaism that accepted the Messiah Jesus.
As the prophet Ezra tells us, God took the prophetic gifts away from Israel and had given these over to the Christians (i.e. the Messianic Judaism that had accepted the Messiah) because the normative Jews apostatized over and over.
The prophet Ezra tells the Jews : “…you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. 32 And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “ Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;
And the prophetic/revalatory gifts which God had taken from the Jews, he then gave to the Christians, (i.e. to Messianic Judaism which had recognized and accepted the Messiah. )
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
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POST TWO OF TWO
3) THE PROPHETIC GIFTS AND MIRACLES EXPLAIN WHY CHRISTIANITY / MESSIANIC JUDAISM SPREAD WHILE LACK OF MIRACLES EXPLAIN WHY RABBINIC JUDAISM REMAINED MORE STAGNANT.
Verse 11 describes the miracles done by the Messianic Jew / Christian Paul (though other Prophets and Apostles were performing miracles in their own areas of labor as well) :
11. And God did powerful miracles by the hand of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
The verses continue to describe that when the other Jewish exorcists tried the same thing, but because they had no spiritual authority, their attempts were disastrous.
The evil spirit answered them , “Jesus I know, and Paul I know but who are you?” and the evil spirit overpowered them all “so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this became known to all residents of Ephesus, both Jews and greeks; and fear fell upon them all; and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled. 20 so the word of the Lord grew and prevailed mightily.
Codex Bezae relates how the normative Jews were Jealous of the Messianic sect and it's greater attraction and this formed one powerful reason for their jealous animosity towards the Messianic Jews / Christians.
The fact that the Messianic Jews / Christians had prophets among them as well as having the prophetic gifts while the normative non-messianic sects did not, was a powerful draw for individuals to gather to the Christians and their Messianic Judaism.
I think this is partly why the Judaism that accepted the Messiah (i.e. Christianity) grew so much, much faster to 2.8 billion people than the sect of Judaism that refused the Messiah (i.e. rabbinic Judaism) and is only 16 million nowadays.
This partly explains why in vs 23 “About that time there arose no little stir concerning the Way” among both the investigators of Messianic Judaism/Christianity and a negative “stir” among stubborn and jealous individuals.
The sacred texts tell us that It is not that the Jews were simply stubborn about accepting new and additional truth, but Speaking of the Jews, the prophet Ezra teaches that the prophetic gifts given to Israel were taken away from them because they did not "Keep the ways" of God, saying : but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. 32 And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;
”For when Israel abandoned Him by being faithless, He turned away from them and from His sanctuary and gave them up to the sword. But when He called to mind the covenant He made with their forefathers, He left a remnant for Israel and did not allow them to be exterminated. (The Damascus Document 4Q) A:3-11; 18-21;
Despite this unfaithfulness the historical texts describe, I believe God still loves the Jews as he does all of his children and he did not want them to be punished and smitten for not accepting more truth. I think the remnant will increasingly turn to Messianic Judaism as they are now doing and, as the sacred records tell us, those who do will be blessed for doing so.
Clear
σι μ
3) THE PROPHETIC GIFTS AND MIRACLES EXPLAIN WHY CHRISTIANITY / MESSIANIC JUDAISM SPREAD WHILE LACK OF MIRACLES EXPLAIN WHY RABBINIC JUDAISM REMAINED MORE STAGNANT.
Verse 11 describes the miracles done by the Messianic Jew / Christian Paul (though other Prophets and Apostles were performing miracles in their own areas of labor as well) :
11. And God did powerful miracles by the hand of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
The verses continue to describe that when the other Jewish exorcists tried the same thing, but because they had no spiritual authority, their attempts were disastrous.
The evil spirit answered them , “Jesus I know, and Paul I know but who are you?” and the evil spirit overpowered them all “so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this became known to all residents of Ephesus, both Jews and greeks; and fear fell upon them all; and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled. 20 so the word of the Lord grew and prevailed mightily.
Codex Bezae relates how the normative Jews were Jealous of the Messianic sect and it's greater attraction and this formed one powerful reason for their jealous animosity towards the Messianic Jews / Christians.
The fact that the Messianic Jews / Christians had prophets among them as well as having the prophetic gifts while the normative non-messianic sects did not, was a powerful draw for individuals to gather to the Christians and their Messianic Judaism.
I think this is partly why the Judaism that accepted the Messiah (i.e. Christianity) grew so much, much faster to 2.8 billion people than the sect of Judaism that refused the Messiah (i.e. rabbinic Judaism) and is only 16 million nowadays.
This partly explains why in vs 23 “About that time there arose no little stir concerning the Way” among both the investigators of Messianic Judaism/Christianity and a negative “stir” among stubborn and jealous individuals.
The sacred texts tell us that It is not that the Jews were simply stubborn about accepting new and additional truth, but Speaking of the Jews, the prophet Ezra teaches that the prophetic gifts given to Israel were taken away from them because they did not "Keep the ways" of God, saying : but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. 32 And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;
”For when Israel abandoned Him by being faithless, He turned away from them and from His sanctuary and gave them up to the sword. But when He called to mind the covenant He made with their forefathers, He left a remnant for Israel and did not allow them to be exterminated. (The Damascus Document 4Q) A:3-11; 18-21;
Despite this unfaithfulness the historical texts describe, I believe God still loves the Jews as he does all of his children and he did not want them to be punished and smitten for not accepting more truth. I think the remnant will increasingly turn to Messianic Judaism as they are now doing and, as the sacred records tell us, those who do will be blessed for doing so.
Clear
σι μ
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Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It relates to the liars and false apostles that were rejected at Ephesus. The phrase "that way" implies a difference to "the way".
The false apostle claim is supported by the difference between what Paul said in Acts 26 to what he was told by Ananias in Acts 9.
POST ONE OF THREE
1) REGARDING ACTS 19 AND PAULS EFFORTS TO SPREAD THE TRUTH AMONG THE RABBINIC JEWS
Ebionite quoted Acts 19:9 : Act 19:9 - But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
Clear said : You did not explain why you quoted this verse but there is more context to it.
For example : Not only is this verse a fulfillment of the above verses that speak of the way of truth and righteousness being evil spoken of by the rabbinic Jews and others, the verses surrounding this verse explain the context of Paul confuting the Jews as he demonstrated Jesus was the Messiah they were waiting for.
Acts 19:8 tells us that Paul spake in the synagogues for three months : “And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, arguing and pleading about the kingdom of God;
Acts 8:28 – for he [Paul] powerfully confuted the Jews in public, showing by the scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.” Then the verse you quoted described the Jews of the synagogue became stubborn and “spake evil” of the way of the most high, the way of righteousness, the way of is paths, the way of life, the way of truth, the way of light, (whatever one wants to call the way of Messianic Judaism or Christianity).
The next few verses also describe why Messianic Judaism or Christianity spread so very quickly and widely while rabbinic Judaism that did not accept the Messiah remained a much smaller sect than the Judaism that accepted the Messiah Jesus.
As the prophet Ezra tells us, God took the prophetic gifts away from Israel and had given these over to the Christians (i.e. the Messianic Judaism that had accepted the Messiah) because the normative Jews apostatized over and over.
The prophet Ezra tells the Jews : “…you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. 32 And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “ Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;
And the prophetic/revelatory gifts which God had taken from the Jews, he then gave to the Christians, (i.e. to Messianic Judaism which had recognized and accepted the Messiah. )
2) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT IS SIMPLY BASED ON THE WORD “THAT”
Ebionite countered : “ It relates to the liars and false apostles that were rejected at Ephesus. The phrase "that way" implies a difference to "the way".
This is a wonderful example of someone trying to data mine and quote scriptures when they do not know the actual scriptures.
The problem with your premise is that it is based on an error.
There IS NO word “that” in this sentence in the actual scripture.
You picked the old King James Version (websters?) to quote and are quoting an error in that specific text.
The New King James corrects the error of the original and it speaks of the Jews who” spoke evil of the Way”
Let me give you some more examples that confirm your error :
New International Version “maligned the Way.”
New Living Translation “speaking against the Way.”
English Standard Version “speaking evil of the Way.”
Berean Standard Bible “maligned the Way.”
Berean Literal Bible “speaking evil of the Way.
New American Standard Bible “speaking evil of the Way.”
NASB 1995 “speaking evil of the the Way
NASB 1977 speaking evil of the Way
Legacy Standard Bible speaking evil of the Way
Amplified Bible speaking evil of the Way
Holman Christian Standard Bible slandering the Way
American Standard Version speaking evil of the Way
Aramaic Bible in Plain English reviling the way of God
Contemporary English Version said terrible things about God's Way.
Douay-Rheims Bible speaking evil of the way of the Lord,.
English Revised Version speaking evil of the Way
Good News Translation said evil things about the Way of the Lord.
International Standard Version slandered the Way.
Literal Standard Version speaking evil of The Way.
Majority Standard Bible maligned the Way.
New American Bible disparaged the Way.
NET Bible reviling the Way
New Revised Standard Version spoke evil of the Way
New Heart English Bible speaking evil of the Way
World English Bible speaking evil of the Way
Young's Literal Translation speaking evil of the way
In case you want to argue the Greek, the actual Greek in the phrase is "κακολογουντες την Οδον”.
Readers will notice the article την Οδον is “THE” way, and not “That” way.
NA28 and GN4 do not show any manuscript variants which use “That” Way.
Ebionite, If you don’t know the scriptures, you should not try to quote from them and attempt to misuse their meaning.
POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS
1) REGARDING ACTS 19 AND PAULS EFFORTS TO SPREAD THE TRUTH AMONG THE RABBINIC JEWS
Ebionite quoted Acts 19:9 : Act 19:9 - But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
Clear said : You did not explain why you quoted this verse but there is more context to it.
For example : Not only is this verse a fulfillment of the above verses that speak of the way of truth and righteousness being evil spoken of by the rabbinic Jews and others, the verses surrounding this verse explain the context of Paul confuting the Jews as he demonstrated Jesus was the Messiah they were waiting for.
Acts 19:8 tells us that Paul spake in the synagogues for three months : “And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, arguing and pleading about the kingdom of God;
Acts 8:28 – for he [Paul] powerfully confuted the Jews in public, showing by the scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.” Then the verse you quoted described the Jews of the synagogue became stubborn and “spake evil” of the way of the most high, the way of righteousness, the way of is paths, the way of life, the way of truth, the way of light, (whatever one wants to call the way of Messianic Judaism or Christianity).
The next few verses also describe why Messianic Judaism or Christianity spread so very quickly and widely while rabbinic Judaism that did not accept the Messiah remained a much smaller sect than the Judaism that accepted the Messiah Jesus.
As the prophet Ezra tells us, God took the prophetic gifts away from Israel and had given these over to the Christians (i.e. the Messianic Judaism that had accepted the Messiah) because the normative Jews apostatized over and over.
The prophet Ezra tells the Jews : “…you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. 32 And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “ Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;
And the prophetic/revelatory gifts which God had taken from the Jews, he then gave to the Christians, (i.e. to Messianic Judaism which had recognized and accepted the Messiah. )
2) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT IS SIMPLY BASED ON THE WORD “THAT”
Ebionite countered : “ It relates to the liars and false apostles that were rejected at Ephesus. The phrase "that way" implies a difference to "the way".
This is a wonderful example of someone trying to data mine and quote scriptures when they do not know the actual scriptures.
The problem with your premise is that it is based on an error.
There IS NO word “that” in this sentence in the actual scripture.
You picked the old King James Version (websters?) to quote and are quoting an error in that specific text.
The New King James corrects the error of the original and it speaks of the Jews who” spoke evil of the Way”
Let me give you some more examples that confirm your error :
New International Version “maligned the Way.”
New Living Translation “speaking against the Way.”
English Standard Version “speaking evil of the Way.”
Berean Standard Bible “maligned the Way.”
Berean Literal Bible “speaking evil of the Way.
New American Standard Bible “speaking evil of the Way.”
NASB 1995 “speaking evil of the the Way
NASB 1977 speaking evil of the Way
Legacy Standard Bible speaking evil of the Way
Amplified Bible speaking evil of the Way
Holman Christian Standard Bible slandering the Way
American Standard Version speaking evil of the Way
Aramaic Bible in Plain English reviling the way of God
Contemporary English Version said terrible things about God's Way.
Douay-Rheims Bible speaking evil of the way of the Lord,.
English Revised Version speaking evil of the Way
Good News Translation said evil things about the Way of the Lord.
International Standard Version slandered the Way.
Literal Standard Version speaking evil of The Way.
Majority Standard Bible maligned the Way.
New American Bible disparaged the Way.
NET Bible reviling the Way
New Revised Standard Version spoke evil of the Way
New Heart English Bible speaking evil of the Way
World English Bible speaking evil of the Way
Young's Literal Translation speaking evil of the way
In case you want to argue the Greek, the actual Greek in the phrase is "κακολογουντες την Οδον”.
Readers will notice the article την Οδον is “THE” way, and not “That” way.
NA28 and GN4 do not show any manuscript variants which use “That” Way.
Ebionite, If you don’t know the scriptures, you should not try to quote from them and attempt to misuse their meaning.
POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS
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POST TWO OF THREE
3) REGARDING EBIONITES USE OF REVELATIONS 2:2
Ebionite said : “ Rev 2:2 - I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: “
The context of this verse is that the resurrected Messiah Jesus gives instructions “to the Angel/Messenger of the Church in Ephesus” to recognize their works, their toil and their patience and their wisdom in testing individuals who claim to be sent (i.e. apostles) to them.
The verse is not speaking of the apostle Paul but of others.
If it applies to your verse at all, and refers to individuals mentioned in the text, then it applies to the Jewish Exorcists who tried to exorcise a demon from a person without having any authority.
God did not send these Jews nor did the Jews have authority from God as did the Christian Apostles.
Acts 19:11 tells us that “God did powerful miracles by the hands of Paul so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
In verse 13, some of the Jews attempted to perform miracles by mimicking Pauls actions though they were neither sent (they were NOT true apostles) nor did they have Gods’ authority to attempt to perform miracles in the name of the Messiah.
Verse 13 says : “Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to pronounce the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying “I adjure you by the Jewus whom Paul preaches.”…in verse 15 ….the evil spirit answered them “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
Ultimately it ends badly for those who tried to use authority they did not have and the person with the evil spirit “leaped on them” (the unauthorized Jews) and “overpowered them so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."
This was both a terrible embarassment for the Jews who were shown to have no divine authority at that time but it became a wonderful sign that God was with the Christians among the populace : " And this became known to all residents of Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks; and fear fell upon them all; and the name of the Lord Jesus was extoled. The end result was that many people became believers “So the word of the Lord grew and prevailed mightily”.
As I pointed out, as the prophetic gifts were taken from the Jews and given to the Messianic Jews/Christians, these many miracles and prophetic gifts in early Christianity were part of the reason Messianic Judaism/Christianity grew to 2.8 billion nowadays while the Rabbinic Jewish sect that did not accept the messiah stagnated comparatively at only 16 million.
4) THE RESULT OF CHRISTIAN SUCCESS AMONG THOSE WHO ACCEPTED THE MESSIAH INSPIRED ENVY AMONG THE RABBINIC JEWS INSTEAD OF REPENTANCE
The texts tell us that the early success of Messianic Judaism (Christianity) that had accepted the Messiah was much, much, much more successful in proselyting than the rabbinic Judaism (i.e. Judaism that did not accept the Messiah) and instead of inspiring repentance in the Jewish leadership, it inspired envy and anger instead (often similar to attitudes and actions we see in forum debates)
Luke reports that “when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Acts 13:42-45;
Notice that the text tells us that the Jews did not speak against the Messianics because what the Christians said was error, but the main motivation of the Jews was Envy/Jealousy.
But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. Acts 13:50;
But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren. Acts 14:2;
5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. Acts 17:5;
But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people. Acts 17:13;
POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS
3) REGARDING EBIONITES USE OF REVELATIONS 2:2
Ebionite said : “ Rev 2:2 - I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: “
The context of this verse is that the resurrected Messiah Jesus gives instructions “to the Angel/Messenger of the Church in Ephesus” to recognize their works, their toil and their patience and their wisdom in testing individuals who claim to be sent (i.e. apostles) to them.
The verse is not speaking of the apostle Paul but of others.
If it applies to your verse at all, and refers to individuals mentioned in the text, then it applies to the Jewish Exorcists who tried to exorcise a demon from a person without having any authority.
God did not send these Jews nor did the Jews have authority from God as did the Christian Apostles.
Acts 19:11 tells us that “God did powerful miracles by the hands of Paul so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
In verse 13, some of the Jews attempted to perform miracles by mimicking Pauls actions though they were neither sent (they were NOT true apostles) nor did they have Gods’ authority to attempt to perform miracles in the name of the Messiah.
Verse 13 says : “Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to pronounce the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying “I adjure you by the Jewus whom Paul preaches.”…in verse 15 ….the evil spirit answered them “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
Ultimately it ends badly for those who tried to use authority they did not have and the person with the evil spirit “leaped on them” (the unauthorized Jews) and “overpowered them so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."
This was both a terrible embarassment for the Jews who were shown to have no divine authority at that time but it became a wonderful sign that God was with the Christians among the populace : " And this became known to all residents of Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks; and fear fell upon them all; and the name of the Lord Jesus was extoled. The end result was that many people became believers “So the word of the Lord grew and prevailed mightily”.
As I pointed out, as the prophetic gifts were taken from the Jews and given to the Messianic Jews/Christians, these many miracles and prophetic gifts in early Christianity were part of the reason Messianic Judaism/Christianity grew to 2.8 billion nowadays while the Rabbinic Jewish sect that did not accept the messiah stagnated comparatively at only 16 million.
4) THE RESULT OF CHRISTIAN SUCCESS AMONG THOSE WHO ACCEPTED THE MESSIAH INSPIRED ENVY AMONG THE RABBINIC JEWS INSTEAD OF REPENTANCE
The texts tell us that the early success of Messianic Judaism (Christianity) that had accepted the Messiah was much, much, much more successful in proselyting than the rabbinic Judaism (i.e. Judaism that did not accept the Messiah) and instead of inspiring repentance in the Jewish leadership, it inspired envy and anger instead (often similar to attitudes and actions we see in forum debates)
Luke reports that “when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Acts 13:42-45;
Notice that the text tells us that the Jews did not speak against the Messianics because what the Christians said was error, but the main motivation of the Jews was Envy/Jealousy.
But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. Acts 13:50;
But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren. Acts 14:2;
5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. Acts 17:5;
But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people. Acts 17:13;
POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS
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POST THREE OF THREE
5) WILLINGNESS TO TWIST AND “WRESTLE” THE SCRIPTURES IS AN ABUSE OF SACRED TEXT
Historically, It was a sign of the unlearned and unstable to wrestle with scriptures to apply twisted meanings to them in order to support a personal theory when one should know better.
The apostle Peter tells us regarding those who “wrest” the scriptures that “they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet 3:15-16;
DSS 4Q504 says concerning the Jews who were Chastised by God who was wearied with their sins and did not “understand the testimonies” they were given. The text speaks of the Jews who hoped to be healed of these evils, saying : “For thou will heal us of foolishness and of blindness and confusion [of heart…Behold] we were sold because of our iniquities but despite our offences Thou didst call us…Thou wilt save us from sinning against thee…and to make us understand the testimonies …in the ordeal of Thy chastisement. We have entered into distress.. For we also have tired God with our iniquity, we have wearied the Rock with [our] sins…”
Simply staying with traditions and refusing new information is likened by Phillip unto ““An ["donkey"] which turns a millstone did a hundred miles walking. When it was loosed, it found that it was still at the same place. There are men who make many journeys, but make no progress towards a destination. ….In vain have the wretches labored.” The gospel of Phillip
The Prophet Enoch speaks of the Jews as “sheep” who went astray as they abandoned prophetic religion and were thus left to their own devices in a world that was used to Chastise them.
The Prophet Enoch compares Israel to sheep who abandon their Lord, saying : “… I saw those sheep, how they went astray, going in diverse ways and abandoning that house of his...54 Thereafter I saw that, when they abandoned the house of the Lord and his tower, they went astray completely, and their eyes became blindfolded. ”Then I saw the Lord of the sheep,...55 He left them in the hands of the lions, leopards, and wolves, hyenas, as well as in the hands of the foxes and to all the wild beasts; and these wild beasts of the wilderness began to tear those sheep into pieces. 56 I saw how he left that house of theirs and that tower of theirs and cast all of them into the hands of the lions......1st Enoch 89:51-56;
Using the same metaphor for Israel, The Prophet Enoch said regarding the dispersion of Israel that “the eyes of the sheep became so dim-sighted that they could not see–and likewise in respect to their shepherds–and they were delivered to their shepherds for an excessive destruction, so that the sheep were trampled upon and eaten. 75 The Lord of the sheep remained silent until all the sheep were dispersed into the woods and got mixed among the wild beasts,–and could not be rescued from the hands of the beasts. 1st Enoch 89:73-76;
Though God sent prophetic "lambs" to the recalcitrant "sheep" of Israel, the loss of prophetic religion and the creation of Rabbinic Judaism from the debris of prior prophetic religion left the Jews less able to see than before : The Prophet Enoc continues describing this situation among the Jews saying : “6 Then, behold lambs were born from those snow-white sheep; and they because to open their eyes and see, and cried aloud to the sheep. 7 But as for the sheep, they (the lambs) cried aloud to them, yet they (the sheep) did not listen to what they (the lambs) were telling them but became exceedingly deafened, and their eyes became exceedingly dim-sighted.” 1st Enoch 90:8; “
Many early texts describe such differences between the Jews that accepted the Messiah (Christianity) and the Jews that did not accept the Messiah (e.g. Rabbinic Judaism) by a metaphor saying : When a blind man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness. The gospel of Phillip;
6) TEXTS TELL US THAT THE JEWS WILL, AT SOME POINT, ACCEPT FURTHER LIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE AND WILL BE GIVEN GREATER UNDERSTANDING
Paul explained to the Corinthians that the Jews of his day were blind, but at a future date, if they turn to their Lord, then they shall be able to see clearly that the Messiah was their Messiah all along. Paul said : “14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 2 Cor 3:12-16;
7) THE PROMISE THAT JEWS THAT ACCEPT THE MESSIAH WILL BE GRAFTED BACK INTO PROPHETIC RELIGION IN THE FUTURE
Paul speaks of the time when the Jews who adopt belief in their Messiah will be grafted back into prophetic religion and greater light saying : “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:23-25;
Clear
σι μ
5) WILLINGNESS TO TWIST AND “WRESTLE” THE SCRIPTURES IS AN ABUSE OF SACRED TEXT
Historically, It was a sign of the unlearned and unstable to wrestle with scriptures to apply twisted meanings to them in order to support a personal theory when one should know better.
The apostle Peter tells us regarding those who “wrest” the scriptures that “they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet 3:15-16;
DSS 4Q504 says concerning the Jews who were Chastised by God who was wearied with their sins and did not “understand the testimonies” they were given. The text speaks of the Jews who hoped to be healed of these evils, saying : “For thou will heal us of foolishness and of blindness and confusion [of heart…Behold] we were sold because of our iniquities but despite our offences Thou didst call us…Thou wilt save us from sinning against thee…and to make us understand the testimonies …in the ordeal of Thy chastisement. We have entered into distress.. For we also have tired God with our iniquity, we have wearied the Rock with [our] sins…”
Simply staying with traditions and refusing new information is likened by Phillip unto ““An ["donkey"] which turns a millstone did a hundred miles walking. When it was loosed, it found that it was still at the same place. There are men who make many journeys, but make no progress towards a destination. ….In vain have the wretches labored.” The gospel of Phillip
The Prophet Enoch speaks of the Jews as “sheep” who went astray as they abandoned prophetic religion and were thus left to their own devices in a world that was used to Chastise them.
The Prophet Enoch compares Israel to sheep who abandon their Lord, saying : “… I saw those sheep, how they went astray, going in diverse ways and abandoning that house of his...54 Thereafter I saw that, when they abandoned the house of the Lord and his tower, they went astray completely, and their eyes became blindfolded. ”Then I saw the Lord of the sheep,...55 He left them in the hands of the lions, leopards, and wolves, hyenas, as well as in the hands of the foxes and to all the wild beasts; and these wild beasts of the wilderness began to tear those sheep into pieces. 56 I saw how he left that house of theirs and that tower of theirs and cast all of them into the hands of the lions......1st Enoch 89:51-56;
Using the same metaphor for Israel, The Prophet Enoch said regarding the dispersion of Israel that “the eyes of the sheep became so dim-sighted that they could not see–and likewise in respect to their shepherds–and they were delivered to their shepherds for an excessive destruction, so that the sheep were trampled upon and eaten. 75 The Lord of the sheep remained silent until all the sheep were dispersed into the woods and got mixed among the wild beasts,–and could not be rescued from the hands of the beasts. 1st Enoch 89:73-76;
Though God sent prophetic "lambs" to the recalcitrant "sheep" of Israel, the loss of prophetic religion and the creation of Rabbinic Judaism from the debris of prior prophetic religion left the Jews less able to see than before : The Prophet Enoc continues describing this situation among the Jews saying : “6 Then, behold lambs were born from those snow-white sheep; and they because to open their eyes and see, and cried aloud to the sheep. 7 But as for the sheep, they (the lambs) cried aloud to them, yet they (the sheep) did not listen to what they (the lambs) were telling them but became exceedingly deafened, and their eyes became exceedingly dim-sighted.” 1st Enoch 90:8; “
Many early texts describe such differences between the Jews that accepted the Messiah (Christianity) and the Jews that did not accept the Messiah (e.g. Rabbinic Judaism) by a metaphor saying : When a blind man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness. The gospel of Phillip;
6) TEXTS TELL US THAT THE JEWS WILL, AT SOME POINT, ACCEPT FURTHER LIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE AND WILL BE GIVEN GREATER UNDERSTANDING
Paul explained to the Corinthians that the Jews of his day were blind, but at a future date, if they turn to their Lord, then they shall be able to see clearly that the Messiah was their Messiah all along. Paul said : “14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 2 Cor 3:12-16;
7) THE PROMISE THAT JEWS THAT ACCEPT THE MESSIAH WILL BE GRAFTED BACK INTO PROPHETIC RELIGION IN THE FUTURE
Paul speaks of the time when the Jews who adopt belief in their Messiah will be grafted back into prophetic religion and greater light saying : “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:23-25;
Clear
σι μ
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Ebionite
Well-Known Member
What do you think I don't know about the text? The KJV translation is canonical for the Church of England.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Why do you think that I was trying to data mine anything?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
"The Church of England does not authorise particular translations of the Bible. "
The Diocese of London | Church of England
The Church of England in London north of the Thames: Staines to the Isle of Dogs and as far north as Enfield. Churches, schools, chaplaincies and community.
www.london.anglican.org
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
That is irrelevant to the point that Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.
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1) Regarding examples of the Prophets claim that the Rabbinic Jews were "dim sighted and blind" so "that they could not see" (1 Enoch 89); that God would take the prophetic gifts from them (4th Ezra) , and that they tried to "stir up the people" (acts 17) against accepting the Messiah.
Readers saw in post #386 your quote of Acts 19:9 did not support your premise, but instead, demonstrated the confuting of the Jewish position, showed the Rabbinic Jews were stubborn and spake evil of the Messianic Jews, and that the Prophet Ezra explained the prophetic gifts were taken from the Rabbinic Jews. Strike one
Readers saw in post #389 that your theory of what “that way” from 1611 King James version was also in error. Strike two
Readers also saw in post #390 that your use of Revelations 2:2 was in error as it did not apply to Paul. Strike Three
This pattern of dim-sightedness and your examples of inability to understand and misapplication of scriptures is why I discussed the “willingness to twist and wrestle with scriptures” in post #391.
2) Regarding Ebionites new theory that Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness of Jesus
After pointing out Ebionites misunderstanding and misuse of Scriptures, Ebionite now claims :
“That is irrelevant to the point that Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (post #395)
While you have already struck out three times with your other claims, we might as well examine this forth claim you are making.
Lets unpack it a bit.
You claim “Ananias told him nothing of the sort”.
While we'll examine other parts of this claim later, Firstly, can you explain to readers what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being a minister of and witness of Jesus?
Clear
Readers saw in post #386 your quote of Acts 19:9 did not support your premise, but instead, demonstrated the confuting of the Jewish position, showed the Rabbinic Jews were stubborn and spake evil of the Messianic Jews, and that the Prophet Ezra explained the prophetic gifts were taken from the Rabbinic Jews. Strike one
Readers saw in post #389 that your theory of what “that way” from 1611 King James version was also in error. Strike two
Readers also saw in post #390 that your use of Revelations 2:2 was in error as it did not apply to Paul. Strike Three
This pattern of dim-sightedness and your examples of inability to understand and misapplication of scriptures is why I discussed the “willingness to twist and wrestle with scriptures” in post #391.
2) Regarding Ebionites new theory that Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness of Jesus
After pointing out Ebionites misunderstanding and misuse of Scriptures, Ebionite now claims :
“That is irrelevant to the point that Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (post #395)
While you have already struck out three times with your other claims, we might as well examine this forth claim you are making.
Lets unpack it a bit.
You claim “Ananias told him nothing of the sort”.
While we'll examine other parts of this claim later, Firstly, can you explain to readers what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being a minister of and witness of Jesus?
Clear
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
No, you making the false accusation of data mining doesn't mean that I've "struck out three times".
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Paul wasn't a minister and witness of Jesus. It's defamatory against Jesus to claim that he would endorse a liar like Paul.
Ignoring the chapters from Acts that are referenced by my claim adds nothing to your credibility.
1) REGARDING EBIONITES REPEATED ERRORS IN THE USE OF SACRED TEXTS
Ebionite said : “No, you making the false accusation of data mining doesn't mean that I've "struck out three times". (post #397)
You are confused once again. No one implied that it is “data mining” that makes one in error.
You struck out due to the fact that your three different claims were incorrect three times in a row.
This, readers can see when reading posts #389 and #390 (above).
2) REGARDING THE RESULTS OF GOD TAKING AWAY THE PROPHETIC GIFTS FROM RABBINIC JEWS AND THE RESULTANT INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND
The fact that you so easily misunderstood or misconstrued sacred text seems to be further evidence of the claims by the Prophets that Rabbinic Jews were "dim sighted and blind" so that "they could not see" (1 Enoch 89); and that God would take the prophetic gifts from them (4th Ezra) , and that they try to "stir up the people" (acts 17) against accepting the Messiah rather than taking understanding from the sacred texts.
This continuing pattern of dim-sightedness and your examples of inability to understand and misapplication of scriptures is why I discussed the “willingness to twist and wrestle with scriptures” in post #391.
3) REGARDING EBIONITES NEXT CLAIM : THAT PAUL LIED ABOUT BEING APPOINTED AS A MINISTER AND A WITNESS OF THE MESSIAH JESUS
Ebionite claimed : “That is irrelevant to the point that Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (post #395)
Clear responded by asking Ebionite to explain his theory : “While you have already struck out three times with your other claims, we might as well examine this forth claim you are making. Lets unpack it a bit.
You claim “Ananias told him nothing of the sort”.
While we'll examine other parts of this claim later, Firstly, can you explain to readers what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being a minister of and witness of Jesus? (post #396)
Ebionite responded : “Paul wasn't a minister and witness of Jesus. It's defamatory against Jesus to claim that he would endorse a liar like Paul.” (Post #398)
You did not respond the the question regarding Ananias' speech. (which YOU brought up)
This is simply a repetition of your position instead of providing readers with what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being (or not being) a minister of and witness of Jesus.
Do you want to try again to give readers an actual answer to the question you were asked?
4) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT I AM IGNORING THE CHAPTERS MY QUESTION RELATES TO
Ebionite said : “Ignoring the chapters from Acts that are referenced by my claim adds nothing to your credibility.”
And avoiding answering a simple question regarding your theory actually detracts from your credibility.
Especially since readers can see the chapters in question referenced in each of my posts quoting your claim...(#386, 396, and this post as well)
Why not just simply answer the question rather than making silly and irrelevant accusations?
Just answer the question.
Let me help you.
Ananias in acts 9 describes how the Lord said to him in a vision to go to the house of Judas for Saul who has seen Ananias in a vision as the one who will restore his sight. Ananias is told by God to go and heal Paul "for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel..." (vs 15)
The words Ananias says to Paul in the text is : "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy spirit." (vs 17)
You claimed : "Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (post #395)"
So....Focus and Lets try again shall we?
The Lord Messiah tells Ananias that Paul is a "chosen instrument of mine to carry my name", etc. You were asked to “explain to readers what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being a minister of and witness of Jesus?” (post #396)
Clear
ακ μ
Ebionite said : “No, you making the false accusation of data mining doesn't mean that I've "struck out three times". (post #397)
You are confused once again. No one implied that it is “data mining” that makes one in error.
You struck out due to the fact that your three different claims were incorrect three times in a row.
This, readers can see when reading posts #389 and #390 (above).
2) REGARDING THE RESULTS OF GOD TAKING AWAY THE PROPHETIC GIFTS FROM RABBINIC JEWS AND THE RESULTANT INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND
The fact that you so easily misunderstood or misconstrued sacred text seems to be further evidence of the claims by the Prophets that Rabbinic Jews were "dim sighted and blind" so that "they could not see" (1 Enoch 89); and that God would take the prophetic gifts from them (4th Ezra) , and that they try to "stir up the people" (acts 17) against accepting the Messiah rather than taking understanding from the sacred texts.
This continuing pattern of dim-sightedness and your examples of inability to understand and misapplication of scriptures is why I discussed the “willingness to twist and wrestle with scriptures” in post #391.
3) REGARDING EBIONITES NEXT CLAIM : THAT PAUL LIED ABOUT BEING APPOINTED AS A MINISTER AND A WITNESS OF THE MESSIAH JESUS
Ebionite claimed : “That is irrelevant to the point that Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (post #395)
Clear responded by asking Ebionite to explain his theory : “While you have already struck out three times with your other claims, we might as well examine this forth claim you are making. Lets unpack it a bit.
You claim “Ananias told him nothing of the sort”.
While we'll examine other parts of this claim later, Firstly, can you explain to readers what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being a minister of and witness of Jesus? (post #396)
Ebionite responded : “Paul wasn't a minister and witness of Jesus. It's defamatory against Jesus to claim that he would endorse a liar like Paul.” (Post #398)
You did not respond the the question regarding Ananias' speech. (which YOU brought up)
This is simply a repetition of your position instead of providing readers with what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being (or not being) a minister of and witness of Jesus.
Do you want to try again to give readers an actual answer to the question you were asked?
4) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT I AM IGNORING THE CHAPTERS MY QUESTION RELATES TO
Ebionite said : “Ignoring the chapters from Acts that are referenced by my claim adds nothing to your credibility.”
And avoiding answering a simple question regarding your theory actually detracts from your credibility.
Especially since readers can see the chapters in question referenced in each of my posts quoting your claim...(#386, 396, and this post as well)
Why not just simply answer the question rather than making silly and irrelevant accusations?
Just answer the question.
Let me help you.
Ananias in acts 9 describes how the Lord said to him in a vision to go to the house of Judas for Saul who has seen Ananias in a vision as the one who will restore his sight. Ananias is told by God to go and heal Paul "for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel..." (vs 15)
The words Ananias says to Paul in the text is : "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy spirit." (vs 17)
You claimed : "Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (post #395)"
So....Focus and Lets try again shall we?
The Lord Messiah tells Ananias that Paul is a "chosen instrument of mine to carry my name", etc. You were asked to “explain to readers what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being a minister of and witness of Jesus?” (post #396)
Clear
ακ μ
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Ebionite
Well-Known Member
No, I'm not. Can you show that I was confused before, or are you simply lying to deflect attention away from Paul?