Jewish Messiah

[Clear]

1) REGARDING EBIONITES REPEATED ERRORS IN THE USE OF SACRED TEXTS

Ebionite said : “No, you making the false accusation of data mining doesn't mean that I've "struck out three times". (post #397)
Clear responded : "You are confused once again. No one implied that it is “data mining” that makes one in error.
You struck out due to the fact that your three different claims were incorrect three times in a row.
This, readers can see when reading posts #389 and #390 (above).
Ebionite answered : "No, I'm not. Can you show that I was confused before, or are you simply lying to deflect attention away from Paul?" (post #400)

Actually, I am trying to get you to clarify your theory about Paul by ANSWERING my question regarding Paul.
YOU made a claim about Paul and it is a waste of time for you not to answer readers questions regarding YOUR theory.



2) REGARDING THE RESULTS OF GOD TAKING AWAY THE PROPHETIC GIFTS FROM RABBINIC JEWS AND THE RESULTANT INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND

The fact that you so easily misunderstood or misconstrued sacred text seems to be further evidence of the claims by the Prophets that Rabbinic Jews were "dim sighted and blind" so that "they could not see" (1 Enoch 89); and that God would take the prophetic gifts from them (4th Ezra) , and that they try to "stir up the people" (acts 17) against accepting the Messiah rather than taking understanding from the sacred texts.

This continuing pattern of dim-sightedness the prophets spoke of and your examples of inability to understand and misapplication of scriptures is why I discussed the “willingness to twist and wrestle with scriptures” in post #391.



3) REGARDING EBIONITES NEXT CLAIM : THAT PAUL LIED ABOUT BEING APPOINTED AS A MINISTER AND A WITNESS OF THE MESSIAH JESUS

Ebionite claimed : “That is irrelevant to the point that Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (post #395)

Clear responded by asking Ebionite to explain his theory : “While you have already struck out three times with your other claims, we might as well examine this fourth claim you are making. Lets unpack it a bit.

You claim “Ananias told him nothing of the sort”.

While we'll examine other parts of this claim later, Firstly, can you explain to readers what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being a minister of and witness of Jesus? (post #396)

Ebionite responded : “Paul wasn't a minister and witness of Jesus. It's defamatory against Jesus to claim that he would endorse a liar like Paul.” (Post #398)

Again, You did not respond the the question regarding Ananias' speech. (which YOU brought up)
This is simply a repetition of your position instead of providing readers with what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being (or not being) a minister of and witness of Jesus. It does not tell us what Ananias' speech with Paul has to do with Paul being (or not being) a false prophet.

Do you want to try again to give readers an actual answer to the question you were asked?



4) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT I AM IGNORING THE CHAPTERS MY QUESTION RELATES TO
Ebionite said : “Ignoring the chapters from Acts that are referenced by my claim adds nothing to your credibility.”

And avoiding answering a simple question regarding your theory actually detracts from your credibility.
Especially since readers can see the chapters in question referenced in each of my posts quoting your claim...(#386, 396, and this post as well)

Why not just simply answer the question rather than making silly and irrelevant accusations?
Just answer the question.

Let me help you.

Ananias in acts 9 describes how the Lord said to him in a vision to go to the house of Judas for Saul (who has seen Ananias in a vision as the one who will restore his sight). Ananias is told by revelation from the Lord to go and heal Paul, saying, "for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel..." (vs 15)

The words Ananias says to Paul in the text is : "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy spirit." (vs 17)

You claimed : "Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (post #395)"

So....Focus on the question you were asked concerning Paul and Lets try again shall we?

The Lord Messiah tells Ananias that Paul is a "chosen instrument of mine to carry my name", etc.

You were asked to “explain to readers what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being a minister of and witness of Jesus?” (post #396)

YOU brought up YOUR theory. Now, Will you answer questions to support your own theory?

Clear
ακ μ προτοσ καιροσ

 

[Ebionite]

Actually, I am trying to get you to clarify your theory about Paul by ANSWERING my question regarding Paul.

So you were lying about me being confused for a different reason, then?

 

[Clear]

1) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL LIED ABOUT BEING APPOINTED AS A MINISTER AND A WITNESS OF THE MESSIAH JESUS

Ebionite claimed : “… Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (post #395)

Clear responded by asking Ebionite to explain his theory that Paul lied about being a minister and witness of Jesus. And Ananias “told him nothing of the sort”. Clear asked Ebionite “…to explain to readers what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being a minister of and witness of Jesus? (This is a summary, the actual post #396 gives the full reply)

Ebionite responded : “Paul wasn't a minister and witness of Jesus. It's defamatory against Jesus to claim that he would endorse a liar like Paul.” (Post #398)

Clear pointed out : Again, You did not respond the the question regarding Ananias' speech. (which YOU brought up). Let me help you.

Ananias in acts 9 describes how the Lord said to him in a vision to go to the house of Judas for Saul (who has seen Ananias in a vision as the one who will restore his sight). Ananias is told by revelation from the Lord to go and heal Paul, saying, "for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel..." (vs 15)

The words Ananias says to Paul in the text is : "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy spirit." (vs 17)

Ebionite responded : “Paul wasn't a minister and witness of Jesus. It's defamatory against Jesus to claim that he would endorse a liar like Paul.” (Post #398)

Clear replied : “This is simply a repetition of your position (that Paul lied) instead of providing readers with what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being (or not being) a minister of and witness of Jesus.” Do you want to try again to give readers an actual answer to the question you were asked? (This is a summary, the actual post #399 gives the full reply)

Ebionites response to the question is : “So you were lying about me being confused for a different reason, then?” (post #402)



Again, your response is simply yet another deflection from answering the question you were asked.

Ebionite. I think readers want you to answer the question.
I certainly do.

While a clear answer is helpful for readers, It does not support your theory in a debate thread to pretend to be so offended that you are unable to answer the questions you are asked or that being offended or embarrassed is an excuse to make claims you either cannot, or will not support with data.

So, relax, count to ten and simply answer the question so as to allow readers to see if there is any merit in your theory.


2) IF EBIONITE REFUSES TO ANSWER QUESTIONS OR HAS NO DATA TO SUPPORT HIS THEORY

READERS CAN MAKE A PRELIMINARY JUDGEMENT REGARDING EBIONITES THEORY THAT ANANIAS’ SPEECH WITH PAUL HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH SHOWING PAUL LIED ABOUT BEING A WITNESS TO THE MESSIAH JESUS AND TO MINISTERING TO OTHERS AS AN APOSTLE (i.e. -one who is sent) OF THE MESSIAH.



READERS :
Ananias in acts 9 describes how the Lord said to him in a vision to go to the house of Judas for Saul who has seen Ananias in a vision as the one who will restore his sight. Ananias is told by the Lord to go and heal Paul "for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel..." (vs 15)

The ONLY words Ananias says to Paul from the text are : "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy spirit." (vs 17)


Ebionite – what do these words from Ananias have to do with your theory that Paul Lied because “Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (ebionite, post #395)



3) IS THERE ANYONE HERE WHO WOULD LIKE TO HELP EBIONITE IN SUPPORTING THIS SPECIFIC CLAIM THAT EBIONITE IS MAKING?

CAN ANYONE HELP EBIONITE BY SUPPORTING THE CLAIM THAT ANANIAS’ SPEECH AFFECTS WHETHER PAUL IS, OR IS NOT A WITNESSNESS AND A MINISTER FOR THE MESSIAH JESUS?

If Ebionite continues to refuse to support his claim by answering questions and offering supporting data for this specific theory of his, is there ANY OTHER reader who wants to try to support Ebionite by telling specifically us what Ananias’ speech has to do with Paul being (or not being) a witness of the resurrected Messiah Jesus, or with Paul being sent By Jesus to minister for and testify of him?

Anyone?


Clear
αυτοσ ακ μ

 

[Ebionite]

Again, your response is simply yet another deflection from answering the question you were asked.

Your continual refusal to provide support of your accusation against me shows that don't have a credible position on which to base your argument.

READERS :
Ananias in acts 9 describes how the Lord said to him in a vision to go to the house of Judas for Saul who has seen Ananias in a vision as the one who will restore his sight. Ananias is told by the Lord to go and heal Paul "for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel..." (vs 15)

The ONLY words Ananias says to Paul from the text are : "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy spirit." (vs 17)

The relevant text from Acts 9 that you omitted was:

And as [Saul/Paul] journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Acts 9:3-6

Paul's account in Acts 26 contradicts the account in Acts 9 regarding who told Paul what he was to do, where he was told it, and what he was told.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@Clear

You need to become aware that the way you construct your posts makes it difficult for people to follow you. I was trying to check out the conversation between you and Ebionite, and could not follow the conversation back in time because you are not using the quote feature. Instead, you copy and paste. Let me explain why this is not helpful.

When someone gets quoted, it will include an up arrow, that if you click on it, you will find the post that the quote is taken from. You can look back through entire conversations by clicking on the back arrows.

Because you do not use the quote feature, I cannot then go and find the posts that you are quoting (which is important for context). It becomes a dead end.

Please reconsider how you format your posts. Thanks for your time and consideration.

 

[Clear]

1) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL LIED ABOUT BEING A MINISTER AND A WITNESS OF THE MESSIAH JESUS

Ebionite claimed : “… Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.” (post #395)

Clear responded by asking Ebionite to explain his theory that Paul lied about being a minister and witness of Jesus. And Ananias “told him nothing of the sort”. Clear asked Ebionite “…to explain to readers what Ananias speech with Paul has to do with Paul being a minister of and witness of Jesus? (This is a summary, the actual post #396 gives the full reply)

Ebionite responded : “Paul wasn't a minister and witness of Jesus. (post #398)

I disagree..

If you actually read the text, Paul never ceased to minister for and to witness to the Messiah Jesus. For examples :

Immediately after seeing the resurrected messiah Jesus and receiving his sight, Paul witnesses of the Messiah. The text says “…straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.” Acts 9:20

…29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, Acts 9:29

The apostles themselves set Paul apart as a witness for the Messiah Jesus. The text tells us this : …the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:2-3

Speaking of king David, Paul witnesses of the Messiah Jesus saying : "…23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus. Acts 13:23

Even when imprisoned, Paul witnesses for the Messiah Jesus. In the prison when the Jailer asked : “30 … Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul (and Silas) said ; “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ…”

The epicurians and stoics tell us that Paul witnessed of the resurrected Messiah Jesus, saying Paul and his companion “…preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.” Acts 17:18

Speaking of Jesus’ return for the Messianic Age, Paul says that God “…hath given assurance unto all men, in that he [God] hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead.” Acts 17:31

Acts 18:5 tells us that "Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. "

Though I’ve only quoted from 4 chapters and only from Acts and only those verses that are absolutely clear that Paul was a minister and a witness of the Messiah Jesus, it should be clear that if one reads the actual narrative instead of picking a verse or two and offering a strained interpretation to it, then it is very clear that Paul was a continual minister for and witness of the Messiah Jesus.


2) OMISSION OF DETAILS IN HISTORICAL TEXTS AND IN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT HISTORICAL TEXTS OF SIZE

Ebionite said : “The relevant text from Acts 9 that you omitted was:
And as [Saul/Paul] journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Acts 9:3-6” (POST #404)

Thank you for adding this additional textual witness (which I omitted) as yet another witness that Paul did see the resurrected Messiah whom he witnessed of to the Jews and Gentiles.

Thank you also for this point regarding "omissions".
You and I have both omitted many, many, many verses and textual witnesses of the Messiah and other points as well.

The same is true regarding almost all historical narratives of any size.

When I read historical narratives such as "The rise and fall of the third Reich" or the Old Testament, I frequently wish they had included certain details they left out which would have made the history more clear.

For the present subject, we both Omitted 18:9 “And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak and do not be silent; 10 for I am with you, and no man shall attack you to harm you; for I have many people in this city.”

We both omitted 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them,; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.”

We both omitted 19:11 And God did powerful miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

We both omitted Acts 23:11 where the text tells us : “The following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified about me at Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also at Rome.”

We both omitted Acts 26:15-18 where Paul described in more detail his encounter with the resurrected Messiah Jesus saying : “15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


You and I both omitted a LOT of textual witnesses.
And, to be fair, it is impossible for you or I or any large historical narrative to tell the entire history of events but must pick and choose from what seems important and what seems irrelevant.

For example, while it is possible for sacred historical textual Witnesses to be specific, they cannot tell the entire story in detail. John 21:25 relates regarding the Messiah “There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.”

The Messiah Jesus said and did a LOT more things than our historical narrative relates. The same is true of all ancient prophets and all ancient narratives of size.


3) IS OMISSION OF DETAILS IN HISTORICAL TEXTS THE SAME AS "LYING"? IS OMISSION THE SAME AS "CONTRADICTING"?

Ebionite said : "Paul's account in Acts 26 contradicts the account in Acts 9 regarding who told Paul what he was to do, where he was told it, and what he was told. (post #404)

It is good that you brought up the concept of what you and I have “omitted”. This does not mean either you or I are lying. Not does it mean the author of Acts is lying when he does the same.

While Lukes account of Pauls conversion omits details in Acts 9 that he includes in Acts 26, you will have to support your claim that this omission means that Paul (or the writer Luke) were lying.

How do you expect to prove he was intentionally lying when you and I both commit the same type of omissions from the same narratives?

While the accounts concentrate on different portions of Pauls conversion as a witness of the Messiah Jesus, you will have to actually point out the actual contradiction to readers, and explain why a specific omission is a "contradiction" or a "lie" rather than a simple omission (since all of us omit to make our points more efficient and straight to the point).



4) WHO DOES YOUR THEORY RECOGNIZE IS A "LIAR" FOR OMITTING DETAILS? DOES YOUR THEORY CONDEMN THE BIOGRAPHER OR THE ONE WHO THE BIOGRAPHER IS WRITING ABOUT?

Paul is not the author of this ancient narrative. Traditionally Luke is the author.

Does your theory about omission being a "lie" blame the person who actually authored the text (Luke) does your theory blame the person the biographer is writing about (Paul).

How does your theory tell if Luke wrote a small version (chapt 9) that Paul later corrected (chapt 26) versus Luke simply offering only sufficient data for the purpose of the chapter (just as you and I omitted narrative because it doesn’t seem relevant to us when trying to make a specific point and later we have to include omitted data as it becomes relevant)?



5) HOW DOES YOUR THEORY OF JUDGMENT REGARDING “LYING” APPLY TO OTHER PROPHETS SUCH AS THOSE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?

If critics give you similar examples from the Old Testament where initial narrative omits details that later versions supply, does this mean that such omissions apply to all prophets in all of scripture whose textual narratives changes are lying and are false prophets?

How does your theory deal with this Since It is unfair to apply your theoretical rule to Paul, but not to Moses.

If we find narratives regarding Abraham or Moses or Isaiah, etc that similarly omit details which are later revealed, does this mean they are false prophets?

If we allow our own biases to create such incorrect theories that render improper judgments, it will may destroy faith in much of the narrative that is actually sacred and good.

What happens if an athiest (or a Jew or Christian) applies this rule to old Testament historical narratives without considering the flaws in the theory?

Thus the apostle Peter warned that "some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Pet 3:16

I had a few more thoughts but will stop here for now and ask :
Do you want to continue to try to support your theory as is, or do you think it needs refining and more thought?
You are welcome to do either since all of us will create tentative theories that, upon closer look, will require adjustments.

In any case Ebionite, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful. I also apologize that it took me a while to get back to you. A member of my family had surgery and I had to take a couple of days off.



Clear

P.S. Hello @IndigoChild5559
If you recall, you were unhappy in a prior debate and you asked me "Please do not continue to address things to me" so this is the only time I will address you (unless you change your mind and now allow me to address you).

Still, I appreciate your suggestion. Thank you so much.

Clear
ακ μ πρεσ καιροσ

 

[Ebionite]

Ebionite responded : “Paul wasn't a minister and witness of Jesus. (post #398)

I disagree..

If you actually read the text, Paul never ceased to minister for and to witness to the Messiah Jesus. For examples :

Immediately after seeing the resurrected messiah Jesus and receiving his sight, Paul witnesses of the Messiah. The text says “…straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.” Acts 9:20

You're leaving out the part about the appointment by Jesus:

That is irrelevant to the point that Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9). When he arrived at Damascus, Ananias told him nothing of the sort.

Paul's actual claim was:

And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:15-18

 

[Clear]

Ebionite Said : You're leaving out the part about the appointment by Jesus: (post #407)
Yes, we've already referred to the concept of omissions that you and I make.
Can you explain specifically, what the omissions or non-omissions or your additions have to do with your theory.

If you cannot, or will not explain your theory with specifics, then readers still will not know what specific "lie" you are referring to.
Are you claiming Jesus did not "appoint" Paul? What is the "lie" you claim Paul told in acts chapt 26?


1) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL LIES IN ACTS 26
Ebionite, Your theory claims Paul lied somewhere in his words in chapter 26.
We've spent a lot of posts regarding your theory trying to get you to explain to readers what you think the specific lie in chapter 26 is.
Will you either tell readers specifically what the lie is so as to support your claim or do you want to withdraw your theory?


2) DOES ANYONE ON THIS FORUM KNOW WHAT EBIONITE IS ACTUALLY REFERRING TO
Readers, If Ebionite cannot or will not explain specifically what Ebionite thinks the lie is, is there anyone who can help him out?
Does any reader in the forum actually know what the lie that Ebionite claims Paul told in chapter 26 is?
If Ebionite will not (or can not) explain his theory, is there anyone who can explain his theory of a specific lie told by Paul in Acts 26?
Anyone in the forum?


Clear

 

[Ebionite]

Can you explain specifically, what the omissions or non-omissions or your additions have to do with your theory.

It's not a theory, it's a claim.

Here it is again:

Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9).

 

[Eli G]

...

Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9).

Any proof?

 

[Ebionite]

Any proof?

The differences between Acts 26 and Acts 9.

 

[Eli G]

The differences between Acts 26 and Acts 9.

What are those differences?

 

[Ebionite]

What are those differences?

Acts 26 and Acts 9 differ as to who told Paul what he was to do, where he was told, and what he was told.

 

[Eli G]

Any difference?

CLUE: Adding more information every time he related the event he experienced does not mean he was lying. He is only specifying details that he did not give in previous accounts of the same event.

In fact, Paul recounts what happened in his travel to Damasco several more times, not just in Acts 26 ... like in Acts 22. Actually, Luke was the one telling what happened in Acts 9 according to what he came to know.

 

[Ebionite]

Any difference?

CLUE: Adding more information every time he related the event he experienced does not mean he was lying. He is only specifying details that he did not give in previous accounts of the same event.

Wrong, the instruction to go to Damascus in Acts 9 was replaced with the description of a specific role in Acts 26.

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Acts 9:5-6

And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:15-18

In fact, Paul recounts what happened in his travel to Damasco several more times, not just in Acts 26 ... like in Acts 22. Actually, Luke was the one telling what happened in Acts 9 according to what he came to know.

No, the is only one other retelling of the account, which is in Acts 22 like you said.

Actually, Luke was the one telling what happened in Acts 9 according to what he came to know.

Yes, the fact that this account even exists is problematic for Paul because in Acts 22 he says that they didn't hear/comprehend what he was told.

And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard[akouó] not the voice of him that spake to me.
Acts 22:9

akouó: to hear, listen
Original Word: ἀκούω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: akouó
Phonetic Spelling: (ak-oo'-o)
Definition: to hear, listen
Usage: I hear, listen, comprehend by hearing; pass: is heard, reported.

And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Acts 26:14

 

[Eli G]

I don't see any difference ... just new info on other recounts.
Maybe you are exaggerating?

Peter confirmed Paul as a faithful man of God:

2 Pet. 3:15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Was the apostle Peter conspiring with Paul?

 

[Ebionite]

I don't see any difference ... just new info on other recounts.

If there was only new information then how is it that in Acts 26 Paul said nothing about about being told to go to Damascus?

 

[Clear]

Post one of two

REGARDING EBIONITES THEORY THAT PAUL WAS NOT A MINISTER AND WITNESS FOR JESUS​

Ebionite claimed : “Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9)." (post #409)

There are three parts to your claim.
1) No appointment by Jesus
2) Not a witness of Jesus
3) Not a minister of Jesus

We have already debunked two and three.
Let me review the debunking and turn to the first part of your claim.



1) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL WAS NOT A WITNESS FOR THE MESSIAH

Ebionite claims Paul was not a witness for the Messiah, yet multiple texts throughout the sacred histories tell us otherwise. Paul witnessed to the Messiah over and over and in all places he was able.

For examples :

Ananias is told by revelation from God that Paul will be a witness when God tells Ananias : He [Paul] is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel.” I will show him…. (Acts 9:15)

Immediately after seeing the resurrected messiah Jesus and receiving his sight, Paul witnesses of the Messiah. The text says “…straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.” Acts 9:20

Paul frequently debates with the Jews, confounding them in his attempts to prove his claim and witness that Jesus was the Messiah, In Acts 9:22 it says “Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.”

The apostles themselves set Paul apart as a witness and minister for the Messiah Jesus. The text tells us this : …the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:2-3

Speaking of king David, Paul witnesses of the Messiah Jesus saying : "…23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus. Acts 13:23

In Acts 13 30 is yet another example where Paul witnesses to the recalcitrant Jews regarding their Messiah Jesus’ resurrection and witnessing to the Jews that “God raised him [the messiah Jesus] from the dead. And for many days he appeared to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people.

Paul (and Barnabas) explain that they brought the witness of the Messiah to the Jews first, but were commanded by God discontinue their work with the recalcitrant sect of Judaism that rejected their Messiah, and bring their witness and ministering to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46-47 says : Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

Even when imprisoned, Paul witnesses for the Messiah Jesus. In the prison when the Jailer asked : “30 … Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul (and Silas) said ; “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ…” (acts 16:30)

The epicurians and stoics describe Paul witnessing of the resurrected Messiah Jesus, saying Paul and his companion “…preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.” Acts 17:18

Speaking of the Messiah Jesus’ return for the Messianic Age, Paul witnesses that God “…hath given assurance unto all men, in that he [God] hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead.” Acts 17:31

Acts 18:5 tells us that Paul continued to testify (witnessed) of the Messiah Jewish. The textual witness says : "Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. "

Even Ananias, who healed Paul is told by revelation that Paul will be appointed both to know what God wants AND to be a witness of the resurrected Messiah Jesus. Acts tells us : “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight. And in that very hour I saw him. 14 And he said, “The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name. Acts 22:12

The sacred texts witness to us an example of the above promise Paul would be aware of Gods will as well as recognized as a witness by the Lord Messiah himself. The text says : “The following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified about me at Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also at Rome.” (Acts 23:11)

Paul repeats his witness of the resurrected Messiah Jesus in acts 26 : 14 while describing the story of the road to Damascus “ 16 “But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me to those in which I will show you, 17 delivering you from the people and from the gentiles – to whom I send you 18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to the God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.

So, these and many, many other examples from the sacred texts could be brought to bear to show Paul indeed witnessed for the Messiah Jesus over and over. Now, onto the third portion of your claim before we investigate the first portion.

post two of two follows

 

[Clear]

post two of two

2) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL WAS NOT A MINISTER FOR THE MESSIAH

The problem for this claim is that there are MANY textual witnesses in the sacred texts tell us God DID use Paul in doing the work of the Messiah. (It also serves as evidence that the Prophet Ezras claim that the prophetic gifts would be taken from the Jews and given to the Messianic Jews/Christians was correct.)

A few examples of Paul ministering to individuals as a servant of the Messiah Jesus follow :

Acts tells us that Paul spoke in the name of Jesus : “And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus…” Acts 9:29

The text witness to us that the apostles themselves set Paul apart as a witness and minister for the Messiah Jesus. The text tells us this : …the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:2-3


The narrative relates how Paul cursed the false prophet Elymas (who called himself bar-Jesus) blind with a word : "When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet, Elymas who called himself “Bar-Jesus.”

Paul curses Elymas (Bar-Jesus) : “”the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.” Acts 13 : 6,11.

In Iconium the Lord confirmed Paul and Barbabas’ message and allowed them to perform miracles by his power. The text witnesses to us that “Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders." (Acts 14:3)

The texts give us examples of these gifts of God given to Paul. In Lystra Paul heals the lame man who had faith in the Messiah.

The textual witness says : “ He [the Lame man] listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” At that, the man jumped up and began to walk. Acts 14:10

When the apostles others meet together, Paul relates the Ministering done by them by relating the signs and wonders God did through them. The text witness says : "And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. Acts 15:12

Paul does know the will of God as the Lord told Ananias (acts 22:12) through revelation given to him by the Lord as the textual witness tells us : “forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. 7 “but the spirit of Jesus did not allow them: 9”And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing beseeching him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” (acts 16:6)

The resurrected Lord continues to communicate with Paul, reassuring Paul regarding the ministry the Messiah called him to. The textual witness of this says : “And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak and do not be silent; 10 for I am with you, and no man shall attack you to harm you; for I have many people in this city. (Acts 18:9)

As more evidence of his ministry, Paul was given the ability to anoint others so that they also (after baptism), could have the gift of revelation through the Spirit. The textual witness from Acts says : “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them,; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” (acts 19:6)

It’s not just these things Paul did in his ministry for the Messiah, but the textual witness tells us further that “…God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them. (Acts 19:11-12)

The text leaves other witnesses as comparison that the prophetic gifts were given to Paul that had been taken from the Jews (as the Prophet Ezra told them). Not only did the false Jewish Prophet to called himself “Bar-Jesus” become blind at Pauls’ word, but other Jews known as the “Sons of Sceva” tried to cast out a spirit “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches” (further evidence Paul preached/witnessed for the Messiah Jesus).

However, unlike Paul, they did not have any such powers given them and the episode ends badly for them as the texts witnesses. The text tells us the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.” (acts 19:13+)

The promise that Paul would know the Lords will is woven into the sacred narratives in many places. For example Paul relates that “When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw him [the Lord] saying to me, ‘Make haste and get quickly out of Jerusalem because they will not accept your testimony about me. 19 And I said , ‘Lord, they themselves know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believed in thee……21 And he [the Lord] said to me, ‘Depart; for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’ (acts 22:17+)

Though I’ve only quoted and only from Acts and only those verses that are absolutely clear that Paul was a minister and a witness of the Messiah Jesus, it should be clear that if one reads the actual narrative, it is very clear that Paul was a continual minister for and witness of the Messiah Jesus.



3) EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL WAS NOT APPOINTED” TO WITNESS AND MINISTER FOR THE MESSIAH

While the first two parts of Ebionites theory are (obviously) debunked by simply reading the many, many, textual witnesses that tell us otherwise.
Lets return to the first portion of the theory about being “appointed” or not and whether the textual witnesses do not give us reason to believe Paul was appointed to be a witness and minister of the Messiah Jesus.


1a What does it mean to be "appointed" or "made" a witness and minister for the Messiah

Ebionite, what you think must happen to be “appointed” or “made” (kjv) a witness of or to minister for the Messiah Jesus.

Can you explain what your theory defines as being “appointed” by the resurrected Jesus?


Clear
εισεστεκαιρο ακ μ

 

[paarsurrey]

Post one of two

REGARDING EBIONITES THEORY THAT PAUL WAS NOT A MINISTER AND WITNESS FOR JESUS​

Ebionite claimed : “Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9)." (post #409)

There are three parts to your claim.
1) No appointment by Jesus
2) Not a witness of Jesus
3) Not a minister of Jesus

We have already debunked two and three.
Let me review the debunking and turn to the first part of your claim.



1) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL WAS NOT A WITNESS FOR THE MESSIAH

Ebionite claims Paul was not a witness for the Messiah, yet multiple texts throughout the sacred histories tell us otherwise. Paul witnessed to the Messiah over and over and in all places he was able.

For examples :

Ananias is told by revelation from God that Paul will be a witness when God tells Ananias : He [Paul] is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel.” I will show him…. (Acts 9:15)

Immediately after seeing the resurrected messiah Jesus and receiving his sight, Paul witnesses of the Messiah. The text says “…straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.” Acts 9:20

Paul frequently debates with the Jews, confounding them in his attempts to prove his claim and witness that Jesus was the Messiah, In Acts 9:22 it says “Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.”

The apostles themselves set Paul apart as a witness and minister for the Messiah Jesus. The text tells us this : …the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:2-3

Speaking of king David, Paul witnesses of the Messiah Jesus saying : "…23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus. Acts 13:23

In Acts 13 30 is yet another example where Paul witnesses to the recalcitrant Jews regarding their Messiah Jesus’ resurrection and witnessing to the Jews that “God raised him [the messiah Jesus] from the dead. And for many days he appeared to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people.

Paul (and Barnabas) explain that they brought the witness of the Messiah to the Jews first, but were commanded by God discontinue their work with the recalcitrant sect of Judaism that rejected their Messiah, and bring their witness and ministering to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46-47 says : Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

Even when imprisoned, Paul witnesses for the Messiah Jesus. In the prison when the Jailer asked : “30 … Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul (and Silas) said ; “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ…” (acts 16:30)

The epicurians and stoics describe Paul witnessing of the resurrected Messiah Jesus, saying Paul and his companion “…preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.” Acts 17:18

Speaking of the Messiah Jesus’ return for the Messianic Age, Paul witnesses that God “…hath given assurance unto all men, in that he [God] hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead.” Acts 17:31

Acts 18:5 tells us that Paul continued to testify (witnessed) of the Messiah Jewish. The textual witness says : "Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. "

Even Ananias, who healed Paul is told by revelation that Paul will be appointed both to know what God wants AND to be a witness of the resurrected Messiah Jesus. Acts tells us : “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight. And in that very hour I saw him. 14 And he said, “The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name. Acts 22:12

The sacred texts witness to us an example of the above promise Paul would be aware of Gods will as well as recognized as a witness by the Lord Messiah himself. The text says : “The following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified about me at Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also at Rome.” (Acts 23:11)

Paul repeats his witness of the resurrected Messiah Jesus in acts 26 : 14 while describing the story of the road to Damascus “ 16 “But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me to those in which I will show you, 17 delivering you from the people and from the gentiles – to whom I send you 18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to the God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.

So, these and many, many other examples from the sacred texts could be brought to bear to show Paul indeed witnessed for the Messiah Jesus over and over. Now, onto the third portion of your claim before we investigate the first portion.

post two of two follows

Aren't all these ( one's quotes) only claims of Paul and others, nothing from Jesus in a straightforward, unambiguous and unequivocal manner in first person, please, right??
And these are not small claims, rather tall claims, on which rests the whole foundation of Christendom, whatever of the , 45000+ denominations of it , as I understand, please?

Regards