IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You need to do better than just quote a verse. Why do you think this verse answers the question?
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Jewish Messiah
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
The verse was specific as to the expectations of Hebrews, and you Ducked, Bobbed and Weaseled.
More to follow . . .
More here .https://www.livius.org/articles/religion/messiah/messiah-2-military-leader/
The Messiah as a military leader
Modern scholars discern four kinds of messianology in the years between 170 BCE and 140 CE.- The Messiah as military leader
- The Messiah as sage
- The Messiah as high-priest
- The "prophet like Moses"
Scholars have always suspected that there were military connotations to the ancient Messiah-concept. The word "anointed" is used some thirty times in the Jewish Bible, and nearly always refers to the king, almost by definition a warrior. One of the texts that confirmed the ideas of these scholars is the Florilegium from Qumran, one of the scrolls in the library that was discovered near the Dead Sea. This text, which is also known as the Eschatological midrash, was written in the second half of the first century BCE and explains several ancient prophecies in a messianic sense, among them the prophecy of Nathan quoted above and Psalm 2, also quoted above.
Here we encounter a Messiah who will struggle against the "sons of Belial", who are identified with the kings of the pagan nations. The text is also interesting because it links the Messiah with the end of times, i.e., connects messianism and apocalypticism. More or less the same is said in another, slightly older fragment full of lacunas.
The fragment is too short and damaged to give a convincing interpretation, but it is clear that someone destroys a pagan army and will be recognized as Messiah after the battle. A similar event seems to be described in 4Q285, a commentary on Isaiah 10-11, although the Messiah is not mentioned.
This text has provoked much debate, because it is possible to read the penultimate line as The branch of David will be put to death. These words of Isaiah, however, are always interpreted as a description of a victory, and the interpretation that this time, they are a reference to a defeated Messiah would be most unusual.
The idea that the Messiah was to be a great warrior is not only present in the Dead Sea scrolls. It can also be found in several Aramaic translations (targums) of the Bible, such as the following rendering of the Song of Hannah.
The Neofiti targum is even more explicit about messianic violence:
These two targums are relatively late, and it is possible that the extremely violent imagery reflects the traumas of the Jewish population after the disastrous wars against the Romans (66-70, 115-117 and 130-136). But the military type of messianology is certainly much older (4Q458 dates from the first half of the first century BCE).
Among those who were inspired by this messianology, were Simon bar Giora and Simon ben Kosiba.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
One is to think about the Israelite Messiah, not the Jewish Messiah, please. Right?
Regards
What would be the difference? This has a high fog index. Actually the concept of the 'anointed one' Messianic King is rooted in Hebrew tribal scripture and history going back to Abraham and possibly before.
I never was sure about it, but there are some verses which give rise to this idea. Psalm 2 comes to mind, and bits of this about the 'Rod of iron' are quoted in Revelation: a book which many take to be quite literal in parts. Some take the 'Lake of fire' literally. Some take the two witnesses literally. Some take the rod of iron in a particular way.
[Psa 2:8-9 KJV] 8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
[Psa 2:12 KJV] 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.
Here are some verses from Zechariah 14 which talk about fighting with the nations and also about withholding rain from any nation which does not submit:
[Zec 14:1-2 KJV] 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[Zec 14:3 KJV] 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[Zec 14:3, 16 KJV] 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. ... 16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Here is Isaiah promoting king Cyrus to "Subdue nations":
[Isa 44:28 KJV] 28 That saith of Cyrus, [He is] my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
[Isa 45:1 KJV] 1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
I don't know when Christians began to think that the Jews had a warrior messiah in mind, but its definitely been told to me many times that the Jews thought messiah would be a conquering king. Not only from scripture but its possible to get this idea from reading about the Maccabees and of the various Jewish factions in history who have followed a warrior messiah. The Maccabees temporarily relieved Jews from oppression. Other warring messiahs have appeared since Christianity began with varying degrees of success.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Since Hebrews=Israelites=Jews, your remark makes absolutely no sense, since the Israelite Messiah is just another (very uncommon) way of saying the Jewish messiah.
That is a theological concept. So, for example, would you not find the assertion "Essenic Messiah = Jewish Messiah" misleading?
I am not a Jew nor do I belong to the conglomerate of Christendom as a whole, as I am a Jehovah's Witness, but I have had to study the matter to be able to answer some questions about the Messiah or Christ that the Hebrew Scriptures predict.
It is obvious that there is, and has been since the return from exile, the hope that a man of David's line would occupy the throne in Jerusalem who would free them from the yoke of the Roman empire and make the nation a divine government that would rule the world in some way or at least free them from any hindrance that any world power could constitute.
In the first century they expected it, they just didn't believe that Jesus was that man. Then they continued to wait for him, and for centuries they have been failing to identify who he is, for they have followed various supposed Messiahs who ultimately turned out to be a fiasco, and disappointed them. Obviously that Jewish hope is still alive.
Christians recognize many messianic prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures, in addition to those already recognized by the Jews. When Jesus appeared on the world scene, those who followed him recognized that he was the Messiah expected by the Jews (and even expected by the Samaritans).
All Christians, in the first century and today, have already seen the messianic expectation fulfilled... the Jews are still waiting, and no one knows how this matter will end for them, because if the Messiah has already appeared, their wait will never be fulfilled and will end when the second coming of Christ happens and Jews will be disappointed again as always before ... and that time for good.
It is obvious that there is, and has been since the return from exile, the hope that a man of David's line would occupy the throne in Jerusalem who would free them from the yoke of the Roman empire and make the nation a divine government that would rule the world in some way or at least free them from any hindrance that any world power could constitute.
In the first century they expected it, they just didn't believe that Jesus was that man. Then they continued to wait for him, and for centuries they have been failing to identify who he is, for they have followed various supposed Messiahs who ultimately turned out to be a fiasco, and disappointed them. Obviously that Jewish hope is still alive.
Christians recognize many messianic prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures, in addition to those already recognized by the Jews. When Jesus appeared on the world scene, those who followed him recognized that he was the Messiah expected by the Jews (and even expected by the Samaritans).
All Christians, in the first century and today, have already seen the messianic expectation fulfilled... the Jews are still waiting, and no one knows how this matter will end for them, because if the Messiah has already appeared, their wait will never be fulfilled and will end when the second coming of Christ happens and Jews will be disappointed again as always before ... and that time for good.
rosends
Well-Known Member
I have been thinking about what you wrote and I see three points to respond to:
1. " they just didn't believe that Jesus was that man"
How about "and they knew that Jesus was not that man."
2. " in addition to those already recognized by the Jews. When Jesus appeared on the world scene, those who followed him recognized that he was the Messiah expected by the Jews (and even expected by the Samaritans)."
So the texts given to the Jews, about Jews, in a language and within a context understood by Jews were better understood by non-Jews? So the expectation established within a cultural context was better understood by people outside that context? I'll stick with an American law professor over a Russian one when I want to understand the US Constitution.
3. "the Jews are still waiting, and no one knows how this matter will end for them,"
The Jews know how this will end because the promised messiah has not come. Putting an "if" in there is meaningless. If turtles were giraffes who knows what noise they would make...but turtles aren't giraffes.
1. " they just didn't believe that Jesus was that man"
How about "and they knew that Jesus was not that man."
2. " in addition to those already recognized by the Jews. When Jesus appeared on the world scene, those who followed him recognized that he was the Messiah expected by the Jews (and even expected by the Samaritans)."
So the texts given to the Jews, about Jews, in a language and within a context understood by Jews were better understood by non-Jews? So the expectation established within a cultural context was better understood by people outside that context? I'll stick with an American law professor over a Russian one when I want to understand the US Constitution.
3. "the Jews are still waiting, and no one knows how this matter will end for them,"
The Jews know how this will end because the promised messiah has not come. Putting an "if" in there is meaningless. If turtles were giraffes who knows what noise they would make...but turtles aren't giraffes.
The Messiah is a sent by God, not a received by Jews.
The same way there were prophecies about that man coming, there were prophecies about that man been rejected by the majority of the Jews ... the same way many of their kings rejected and killed prophets sent by God before.
The same way there were prophecies about that man coming, there were prophecies about that man been rejected by the majority of the Jews ... the same way many of their kings rejected and killed prophets sent by God before.
Besides that: first Christians were also Jews, so I don't know what are you trying to imply with "Jews" that do not apply to first Christians also.
Do you think that the Jews who became Christians in the first century didn't know the issues about the Messiah better than modern Jews?
Do you think that the Jews who became Christians in the first century didn't know the issues about the Messiah better than modern Jews?
rosends
Well-Known Member
No, the messiah is anointed by Jews. There were no prophecies about a messiah rejected by Jews.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Actually, there are Jewish explanations that the first followers of Jesus WERE Jews -- Jews who tried to confuse and deceive their fellow Jews into following Jesus and the Jewish community had to make sure to distance itself from these people.Besides that: first Christians were also Jews, so I don't know what are you trying to imply with "Jews" that do not apply to first Christians also.
Do you think that the Jews who became Christians in the first century didn't know the issues about the Messiah better than modern Jews?
I think that the Jews who became Christian clearly didn't know the issues as well as the majority of Jews in their own generation. Same as now. There are Jews who abandon their Judaism and follow Jesus. I have yet to find one who truly understands Judaism and Jewish content.
No, the Messiah is an anointed by God.
Well, all false Jews-Messiah in the history have had followers too, but while they failed, Jesus did not, and he is still followed by many in the world.
Some fake Jews-Messiah:
- Dositheos the Samaritan (mid 1st century), Origen wrote that Dositheos wished to persuade the Samaritans that he was the Jewish Messiah who was prophesied by Moses, and classes him with John the Baptist, Theodas, and Judas of Galilee as people whom the Jews mistakenly held to be the Christ (Hom. xxv in Lucam; Contra Celsum, I, lvii).[16][17]
- Simon bar Kokhba, born Simon ben Koseva, (d. 135 AD) who led the apical Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire. For three years, bar Kokhba ruled as the nasi, or prince, of a semi-independent secessionist state in Israel. Some rabbinical scholars, including the great sage Akiva, proclaimed bar Kokhba as the Messiah. He died during the rebels' last stand at the fortress of Betar, after which the rebellion was brutally crushed and the land was left largely decimated, cementing both the slowly growing Jewish diaspora and the schism between Christianity and Judaism.
- Shlomo Molcho, born Diogo Pires (1500–1532) in Lisbon to parents who were Jewish converts to Christianity. After meeting David Reuveni, he left his post as secretary to the king's council, traveled to Damascus, Safed, Jerusalem and later Solonika, where he studied kabbalah and became a mystic. He was eventually reunited with Reuveni, declared his aspirations as messiah, and was finally burned at the stake by the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, for refusing to convert back to Christianity.[18] [19]
- Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Zvi, Tzvi) (b. at Smyrna 1626;[20] d. at Dulcigno (present day Ulcinj) 1676), a Sephardic ordained rabbi from Smyrna (now İzmir, Turkey), who was active throughout the Ottoman Empire and claimed to be the long-awaited Messiah. He was the founder of the Sabbatean movement, whose followers subsequently were to be known as Dönmeh "converts" or crypto-Jews[21] - one of the most important messianic movements, whose influence was widespread throughout Jewry.[citation needed] His influence is felt even today. After his death, Sabbatai was followed by a line of putative followers who declared themselves Messiahs and are sometimes grouped as the "Sabbethaian Messiahs".[22]
rosends
Well-Known Member
And you said you have studied this? Did you learn about who was historically anointed with the special oil crafted by Moses? Do you know why there were others called "anointed"? It has to do with that oil. God doesn't anoint -- man does.No, the Messiah is an anointed by God.
citing a list of false messianic claimants does not prove the claim you made. I would just add Jesus to the wikipedia list.
The thing is Jesus still has followers in the world while other Jews "Messiahs" that they (actual Jewish practitioners) followed in their own times, they are not more and most people don't even know they existed ...
So: What do modern Jews say about the Messiah they are expecting today? The only argument they have is that the Messiah was not Jesus and that's it?
So: What do modern Jews say about the Messiah they are expecting today? The only argument they have is that the Messiah was not Jesus and that's it?
What a remarkably arrogant and ignorant claim!The only argument they have is that the Messiah was not Jesus and that's it?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Eli, when the messiah does actually come, he will be universally accepted, included by the Jews.
Well, this is what the Scriptures say about his coming:
Is. 53:1 Who has put faith in the thing heard from us?
And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?
2 He will come up like a twig before him, like a root out of parched land.
No stately form does he have, nor any splendor;
And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him.
3 He was despised and was avoided by men,
A man who was meant for pains and was familiar with sickness.
It was as if his face were hidden from us.
He was despised, and we held him as of no account.
4 Truly he himself carried our sicknesses,
And he bore our pains.
But we considered him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgression;
He was crushed for our errors.
He bore the punishment for our peace,
And because of his wounds we were healed.
6 Like sheep we have all wandered about,
Each has turned his own way,
And Jehovah has caused the error of us all to meet up with him.
7 He was oppressed and he let himself be afflicted,
But he would not open his mouth.
He was brought like a sheep to the slaughter,
Like a ewe that is silent before its shearers,
And he would not open his mouth.
8 Because of restraint and judgment he was taken away;
And who will concern himself with the details of his generation?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
Because of the transgression of my people he received the stroke.
9 And he was given a burial place with the wicked,
And with the rich in his death,
Although he had done no wrong
And there was no deception in his mouth.
10 But it was Jehovah’s will to crush him, and he let him become sick.
If you will present his life as a guilt offering,
He will see his offspring, he will prolong his days,
And through him the delight of Jehovah will have success.
11 Because of his anguish, he will see and be satisfied.
By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant,
Will bring a righteous standing to many people,
And their errors he will bear.
12 For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many,
And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty,
Because he poured out his life even to death
And was counted among the transgressors;
He carried the sin of many people,
And he interceded for the transgressors.
I can clearly see Jesus in that passage. I need nothing more ... even if there is a lot more in the Scriptures about the Messiah, like the time he would appear, and Jews just ignore ... like Daniel prophecy about the 70 weeks in Dan. 7:24-27.
That 70-week prophecy clearly points to the first century AD.; Jews deny it because they are spiritually blind…so blind as they are not realizing that they are not even remotely Jehovah's people, no prophets, no temple, no priests, no obeying the law of Moses, no Davidic king, without territories assigned to their tribes, without priestly sacrifices,... They only live a fantasy; excuse the frankness. What do they really have to say?