Jewish Messiah

[Fool]

If language is the issue, and we still study and use the language they used (separate from the conversational language in use today in conversation), then there is no problem. In Isaiah's time it wasn't about language.

you're right in a sense. language isn't the problem. human's with languages looking for loopholes is basically what eventually hangs them.

 

[Flankerl]

Your welcome. I think it's fitting after you provided zero evidence that our heritage is stolen.

lol evidence
The small Jewish Christian community in and around Jerusalem was completely silenced not even ~20 years after their spiritual leader died.
Afterwards it was led by non-Jews.

Christianity was for a brief moment a Jewish movement and then simply stopped being one.

It then went on a mission to demonise Jews and Judaism for 1900 years although repression only occurred 1700 years ago.
In its way it falsified the TaNaKh to suit its needs and argued that its members shouldn't even read the book they base their entire ideology about.

And, they were a major sect of Judaism in first century Israel. The existence of a significant sect in the time period of Judaism from which Christianity arises that believed in a militaristic/political messiah is extremely pertinent to the question of why Christians might have a tradition of believing that the Jews of the time of Jesus thought the messiah would be militaristic.

There's actually no evidence that they were a major sect, especially by the first century CE.
By that time the Zealots were the third major wheel of us next to the Pharisees and Sadducees.
The latter vanished for good with the destruction of the Temple.
In the late stages before the destruction of the Temple there were even two Pharisee factions.

There's no evidence that the Essenes had any influence on larger Jewish society, let alone the Sanhedrin.


Also where do you get the idea that the Essenes were waiting for a military figure?
Archaeology suggests that they were quite pacifist. Another reason why they didn't matter.
Hillel and Shammai with fun discourses in the Sanhedrin.

 

[Colt]

The divine presence returning. But that can be faked, and people can be led astray by an imposter.

Whatever magic tricks Jesus did his closest followers dedicated their lives to the cause.

 

[Flankerl]

And David Koreshs followers dedicated their lives to the cause that they were more than willing to die for it.

Conclusion: David Koresh was the Messiah.

 

[shunyadragon]

And David Koreshs followers dedicated their lives to the cause that they were more than willing to die for it.

Conclusion: David Koresh was the Messiah.

Possibly a claimed messiah among many, but not likely. Too many messiahs

 

[dybmh]

Possibly a claimed messiah among many, but not likely. Too many messiahs

Like Bahaullah, right?

 

[Colt]

"The materialistic sociologist of today surveys a community, makes a report thereon, and leaves the people as he found them. Nineteen hundred years ago, unlearned Galileans surveyed Jesus giving his life as a spiritual contribution to man’s inner experience and then went out and turned the whole Roman Empire upside down." UB 1955

 

[Orbit]

"The materialistic sociologist of today surveys a community, makes a report thereon, and leaves the people as he found them. Nineteen hundred years ago, unlearned Galileans surveyed Jesus giving his life as a spiritual contribution to man’s inner experience and then went out and turned the whole Roman Empire upside down." UB 1955

This isn't what sociologists do, then or now, For just one example, see Hull House and the birth of social work.

 

[Firenze]

this is an absolute statement about christians and isn't accurate

I think it clearly is. Jewish eschatology derived from the prophets gives a clear delineation of the attributes of the Messiah. It does not include:
- a virgin birth
- a crucifixion
- a resurrection
- a second coming
- any divine attributes

If you know any Christians that actually respect the attributes of the Messiah assigned by the undisputed experts on the subject - the Jews that wrote it- I'd like to know where they are. But of course, if someone follows the Judaic attributes instead of those invented by the gospel authors, they wouldn't be Christians.

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize

Learn about and revise key Jewish beliefs with BBC Bitesize Religious Studies - AQA.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Fool]

I think it clearly is. Jewish eschatology derived from the prophets gives a clear delineation of the attributes of the Messiah. It does not include:
- a virgin birth
- a crucifixion
- a resurrection
- a second coming
- any divine attributes

If you know any Christians that actually respect the attributes of the Messiah assigned by the undisputed experts on the subject - the Jews that wrote it- I'd like to know where they are. But of course, if someone follows the Judaic attributes instead of those invented by the gospel authors, they wouldn't be Christians.

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize

Learn about and revise key Jewish beliefs with BBC Bitesize Religious Studies - AQA.

www.bbc.co.uk

there are 40,000 + denominations of christianity alone. christians are like jews, they don't agree wholly on everything.

 

[Firenze]

there are 40,000 + denominations of christianity alone. christians are like jews, they don't agree wholly on everything.

And yet I am constantly reminded that all these denominations agree on the most important topics - how to recognize the Messiah clearly being near the top. So, on what authority did the gospel authors reject the attributes they presumably grew up with and make up their own - while purposely misrepresenting OT scripture? Isaiah 7:14 being just the most glaringly fraudulent, we also have the invented claim that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem - even though the OT verse refers to a people, not a place. Further, the spurious claim that the Messiah would be from Nazareth because..... of Nazarites. Yikes. None of these verses were ever considered to be Messianic to anyone but disaffected Jews and the early church that invented their new religion but lacked the integrity not to plagiarize what is ostensibly a completely different religion.

 

[Fool]

I think it clearly is. Jewish eschatology derived from the prophets gives a clear delineation of the attributes of the Messiah. It does not include:
- a virgin birth
- a crucifixion
- a resurrection
- a second coming
- any divine attributes

If you know any Christians that actually respect the attributes of the Messiah assigned by the undisputed experts on the subject - the Jews that wrote it- I'd like to know where they are. But of course, if someone follows the Judaic attributes instead of those invented by the gospel authors, they wouldn't be Christians.

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize

Learn about and revise key Jewish beliefs with BBC Bitesize Religious Studies - AQA.

www.bbc.co.uk

as someone has already mentioned in this thread the essenes didn't jive with the mainstream judaism 2000 yrs ago, let alone that of today. neither did the gnostics. but a savior of this world can never be accepted if it solely aligned with a race. it has to transcend the worldly differences in order to meet the spiritual ideal. otherwise it fails. there is nothing to a label except as a covering. a predator will do anything and everything it can to hide it's actions/behavior.



What was their expectation of what would happen?
A Portrait Of Jesus' World - The Essenes And The Dead Sea Scrolls | From Jesus To Christ - The First Christians | FRONTLINE | PBS
The Qumran Scrolls reveal a variety of scenarios for the end of days. The most conspicuous one or the best known one perhaps, is the scroll called the War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness. Where the Sons of Light, of course, is short-[hand]... for themselves. The group itself clearly consists of the Sons of Light... the Sons of Darkness are everybody else, apparently - Jews, gentiles, priests, plain people, all alike, lumped together, under the category of the Sons of Darkness, and at some point there will be a major battle, a cataclysmic struggle, not just between people, not just between the bad guys and the good guys, as we would say in America, but also between cosmic forces, the cosmic forces of evil and the cosmic forces of good. And, in this gigantic struggle, the angels will fight along side the Sons of Light, against the Sons of Darkness and the forces of evil. And, needless to say, this will end with a victory for the Sons of Light.... What will happen after the victory, the Scroll does not clearly spell out as carefully as or clearly as we might have liked. Other scrolls have different scenarios or different pictures, which downplay or minimize this battle aspect and play up instead other aspects.

 

[Colt]

There is a false premise that the Israelites understanding of the coming deliverer or "Messiah" was the only right understanding. The problem wasn't the incarnation of the son of God seen by seers for thousands of years, rather it was the rather Israelitish concept of the form and function of the deliverer would be.

 

[Firenze]

There is a false premise that the Israelites understanding of the coming deliverer or "Messiah" was the only right understanding. The problem wasn't the incarnation of the son of God seen by seers for thousands of years, rather it was the rather Israelitish concept of the form and function of the deliverer would be.

The Israelites literally wrote the book on the subject. Their understanding of the attributes of the Messiah is the only one that matters.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I never was sure about it, but there are some verses which give rise to this idea. Psalm 2 comes to mind, and bits of this about the 'Rod of iron' are quoted in Revelation: a book which many take to be quite literal in parts. Some take the 'Lake of fire' literally. Some take the two witnesses literally. Some take the rod of iron in a particular way.

Does Jesus talk about another man who will come with a rod of iron?
Or is he talking about himself?

In Revelation it seems like Jesus is talking about someone else who has the rod of iron.

Here it is with some context:
"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
And I will give him the morning star". Revelation 2:26-28


So that could mean this other verse is not about Jesus either and is also about the man who Jesus is talking about.

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." Revelation 19:15


But I dont know the reasoning of how these bible verses about the man with a rod of iron have been understood as being about Jesus.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Does Jesus talk about another man who will come with a rod of iron?
Or is he talking about himself?

The topic Jesus unfolds like origami, however the mystery appears to be that God will be all and in all, and that is Paul's interpretation explaining several things. He alludes to the vision of the Law being in the heart instead of something which must be learned. The measuring rod is iron, meaning its length will not change, and this is accomplished when the Law is in every heart. Only then is the measuring rod final, and so Paul is talking about this when he talks about "All and in all."

Jesus alludes to this same event in his prayers. He prays God's will to be done. He also prays we are all one just like he and the Father. This is the rod of iron, not some stick in some man's hand. If this never happens then all is failure, and there is no rod of iron but a succession of adjustments, a bit of chaos mixed in with law.

The sharp sword out of Jesus mouth is the revelation directly from God to each person. Explaining this is difficult on a smart phone, however it is explicable from James and Hebrews among others. Finally: Peace on earth and goodwill between all, and may it be so.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I commonly read Christians posting on here saying something like: 'The Jews expected a warrior messiah who would be a king..' etc. etc. So I ask the Christians now: why do you think the Jews expected and/or expect this? Could you cite any verses in the Tanakh to this effect? If the Jews were near uniformly expecting such a messiah this belief must be backed up with something. What is that something?

Aren't there verses in Torah that days Messiah comes with sword?
Also, some of the Jews believed Messiah will conquer east and west. No?

 

[Rival]

Aren't there verses in Torah that days Messiah comes with sword?
Also, some of the Jews believed Messiah will conquer east and west. No?

Please quote the verses you believe say this. I do think there are some, but I want to see what you quote.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Also where do you get the idea that the Essenes were waiting for a military figure?
Archaeology suggests that they were quite pacifist.

Could you elaborate?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The topic Jesus unfolds like origami, however the mystery appears to be that God will be all and in all, and that is Paul's interpretation explaining several things. He alludes to the vision of the Law being in the heart instead of something which must be learned. The measuring rod is iron, meaning its length will not change, and this is accomplished when the Law is in every heart. Only then is the measuring rod final, and so Paul is talking about this when he talks about "All and in all."

Jesus alludes to this same event in his prayers. He prays God's will to be done. He also prays we are all one just like he and the Father. This is the rod of iron, not some stick in some man's hand. If this never happens then all is failure, and there is no rod of iron but a succession of adjustments, a bit of chaos mixed in with law.

The sharp sword out of Jesus mouth is the revelation directly from God to each person. Explaining this is difficult on a smart phone, however it is explicable from James and Hebrews among others. Finally: Peace on earth and goodwill between all, and may it be so.

Ok so the reasoning is you say even though Jesus is talking about someone else having a rod of iron he is actually talking about himself as in an "all in all" concept. I could accept that as logical as long as it remains absolute and is not selective. So every single person that is mentioned in the bible was also actually Jesus or that logic falls apart.

Where exactly does the idea come from that the rod of iron is the measuring rod and it is a rod of iron meaning its length doesnt change? What is the thought process to arrive at that.

This is what I think a rod of iron is. In Numbers 31:21-22 it states six different metals according to the law commanded to Moses. It is listed as being gold down through to lead, highest to lowest. There are three metals above iron - being the brass, silver, and gold. And there are two metals below the iron being the tin and the lead.

These are the six metals mentioned. Notice the positioning of iron.
Lead - Tin - Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold

In Deteronomy 28:23 it states the heaven above is the brass, while the Earth under it is the iron.
"And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron".

This connection shows the Earth and the heavens were possibly made into six different metals according to the law, just as the earth and the heavens were made in six days.

So a rod of iron would be a rod that is Earthly because iron represents the earth according to the law.


In Revelation it seems to state the man with a rod of iron smashing vessels rather than measuring them.
"And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father".

Like beating with "the rod of correction" mentioned in Proverbs.
"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him". Proverbs
"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die". Proverbs


Hence that is why I think a man with a rod of iron would be someone who has a rod of correction which is Earthly because it is of iron.

Rod of iron = Earthly correction.

And maybe the sword that comes out of his mouth is the correct sword that is spoken of throughout the Bible over 400 times.