IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Brian2: no, it specifically designates the chidlren of Abraham, plural. Not one single man.
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Jewish Messiah
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
Much in the bible is poetry. The bible is a library of books, and the Psalms is a list of lyrics for songs. The bible is nothing at all like a single book.
Those are Habbakuk 3:11 and Luke 21:25 you mention. These are two different books, with Luke written centuries after Habbakuk. Therefore Luke could be using imagery from Habbakuk or not. He could also be referring to Psalm 136:8-9 "8 the sun to govern the day, His love endures forever. 9 the moon and stars to govern the night; His love endures forever." To me it seems most likely that Luke is referring to a usage that is also found in Genesis 1:16 "16 God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars." Rather than swords, spears or arrows these to Luke could be the rulers of night and day: the congregation of the righteous perhaps, the judges. These determine what is legal and what isn't. They are far more important than swords or spears which are mere trifles to Christ and are carnal and ineffective weapons.
Incidentally in this chapter you mention Habakkuk 3:13 is an example of "The anointed one" referring to multiple people:
"You came out to deliver your people, to save your anointed one..."
The Christian usages follow this practice, sometimes; such that there are many crowns.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Are you talking about being anointed with oil?
To speak of the oil is to speak of the sword.
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords. Psalm.
To speak of the oil is to speak of the bone.
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
Flesh - Bone - Blood
As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones. Psalm.
To speak of bone is to speak of sword.
As with a sword in my bones, mine enemies reproach me; while they say daily unto me, Where is thy God? Psalm.
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
Flesh - Bone - Blood
The words of Psalms are not poetry. They are very precise in what they are saying.
Look at this list of threes. Can you see the bread is the flesh, and the wine is the blood? Jesus wasnt speaking in poetry either.
I remember one time being impressed with the threes you were showing me. I don't think that I can just substitute flesh for bread or just substitute sword for bone at any time. It depends upon the usage. For example if we were talking about one of the dreams interpreted by Joseph, then your substitution would become very interesting. We perhaps could see how Joseph interpreted the baker's dream in Genesis 40. How did he know that bread eaten by birds meant death?
I am not saying that you aren't on to something with these rotations of three words. They are interesting. I do not think that I am understanding you, however, when you say that to speak of one thing is to speak of another. Its like if we were using a decoder ring from a cereal box?
Brian2
Veteran Member
OK so you are saying that the Jews who claim the servant of Isa 49 is Isaiah are wrong.
You should tell them how wrong they are, I'll be right behind you and back you up.
However it does sound as if you are saying that everything in the servant passages has to have been done by every ahild of Abraham, and everything done to the servant has to have been done to every child of Abraham. After all it specifically designates the children of Abraham, not some of them or even just one.
But you can get around this problem you have by agreeing that the servant can be speaking in places about certain children of Abraham, or even just one of them, and so it can be said that the nation has done something, or something has been done to the nation through this small group or through just this one person.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I am saying that Isaiah himself identifies the servant in his book as Israel. You also have to read in context -- if God speaks to Isaiah and calls him his servant, then obviously he is speaking to whom he is speaking to. But when it comes to the overarching metaphor of the servant in Isaiah, it is the People of Israel.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Bread, oil, and wine is a layer of the law.
Wine is the high. Bread is the low.
And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart. Psalm.
They are as three different levels of height. Just as the stream is higher than the river, and the river is higher than the sea.
Or as the mountain is higher than the hill, and the hill is higher than the valley.
Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain
As you can see in the list the valley is covered in corn, the river flows as oil, and the mountain flows wine.
The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm.
Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel.
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. Amos.
It is why the corn is as the sand of the sea.
And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number. Genesis.
The different levels of sea, river, and stream are different levels of judgement.
But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos.
The word "mighty" is mentioned in the bible 277 times. They all speak top level stuff. Like the mighty stream, the mighty wine, the mighty bow, etc.
Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine. Psalm.
The bows of the mighty men are broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength. Samuel.
There are many layers repeating the same law so the words substitute each other but the positioning remains the same according to the law. That is where people would get confused as the sentences dont make sense unless you know what they are talking about.
So to speak of the oil is to speak of the river, and to speak of the oil is to speak of the hill. It is speaking of the same position.
If you know the positioning then you hear the corn (bread), the oil, and the wine.
And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea.
Brass - Silver - Gold
Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Brian2
Veteran Member
I would not have thought that God spoke to Isaiah in Isa 49 and called him His servant.
But yes the overarching metaphor seems to be that the servant is the people of Israel even though imo "the people of Israel" does not mean all the people doing everything and everything being done to all the people, and one person could be the servant for the rest of the people in places, but it could be still classed as the people having done it.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Nope that doesn't work at all. The People of Israel are many, not one.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Isa 53 cannot be applied to every Jew, so it can apply in general for the whole nation even though not every Jew did what is said or has had that done to them.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It applies to the remnant who are faithfully obedient, the tzaddikim.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity, would it not be: Hebrews = Canaanite’s, Israelites = Samaritans, and Jews = Judeans? Scripture seems to be quick to say that there are distinct differences.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
How was Jesus not a fiasco? His “Temple Tantrum” as I call it appears to prime the plot for the destruction of the Temple.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Hebrews would refer to the people in an early stage. Abraham and his followers were known as Ivrim (Hebrews). Israelites (as an imperfect English word) could refer to the entire children of Israel, or the northern kingdom of Israel. The term "house of Israel" also refers to the common caste of Jews. "Jew" would refer (at different times and contexts) to someone of the tribe of Judah, or of the kingdom of Judah or of the religion which associated with the kingdom.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Nope. Hebrews=Israelites=Jews
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
You said earlier that Revelation is a Christian writing about Christians. You also say some take Revelation literally, and you say much of the bible is poetry.
I think that could cause a lot of confusion and division. Being literal, or not literal, and being poetry could have an unlimited amount of different interpretations.
Like you might be familiar with the Christian saying in revelation "The marriage of the lamb".
If it is literal then is it about someone marrying a sheep rather than another human. If it is poetic then it could be about anything.
But if you are now understanding what Im talking about how words can be substituted then you should be able to understand this:
I have explained a bit about the bread, oil, and wine. To explain the marriage of the lamb I will add the cattle, goat, sheep layer.
Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Have a look at the list so when I show you this verse you might understand the Christian writing of marrying a sheep.
Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table. Psalm.
As you can see in the list if the wife is truly the grape vine, then the wife is also the sheep.
As God is the husband:
For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
The book of revelation was definitely not from Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, I understand:
- The Book of Revelation was written sometime around 96 CE in Asia Minor. The author was probably a Christian from Ephesus known as "John the Elder." According to the Book, this John was on the island of Patmos, not far from the coast of Asia Minor, "because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 1.10).
Book Of Revelation | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE - PBS
PBS
https://www.pbs.org › apocalypse › revelation › whiteJohn the Apostle
John of Patmos - Wikipedia
wikipedia.org
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › John_of_Patmos
What language was the book of Revelations originally written in?
Book of Revelation / Original language
Greek is an independent branch of the Indo-European family of languages, native to Greece, Cyprus, Italy, southern Albania, and other regions of the Balkans, the Black Sea coast, Asia Minor, and the Eastern Mediterranean.
Wikipedia
- Search for: What language was the book of Revelations originally written in?
- Is John the Baptist and John the Apostle the same person?
When John the Apostle does refer to himself, he almost never says “I” or “me” or even “John,” but he calls himself “the disciple whom Jesus loved”1 or the “other disciple.” John the Apostle was a follower of John the Baptist before the Savior began His ministry. So were some of the Lord's other Apostles.Jan 18, 2023
Keeping track of John and John.
churchofjesuschrist.org
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org › inspiration › keepi...
- What language did Jesus speak?
Aramaic
Aramaic is best known as the language Jesus spoke. It is a Semitic language originating in the middle Euphrates. In 800-600 BC it spread from there to Syria and Mesopotamia. The oldest preserved inscriptions are from this period and written in Old Aramaic.
Aramaic – the language of Jesus
coe.int
https://pace.coe.int › files › html- Which disciple did Jesus loved the most?
Disciple whom Jesus loved - Wikipedia
wikipedia.org
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Disciple_whom_Jesus_l...
Right?
Regards
Attachments
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Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Canaanites
Ammonites
Amorites
Edomites
Israelites
Phoenicians (and in extension Carthaginians)
Moabites
Cultural Canaanites
Ekronites (originally Philistine, adopted Canaanite customs over time)
Hyksos (maybe)
Suteans (maybe)
Israelites
Kingdom of Israel (North)
Kingdom of Judah (South)
...
With the destruction of the Northern Kingdom the Southern Kingdoms population sky-rockets (Northern refugees) and the non-Jerusalem centric cult dies out, Judah becomes the sole Israelite Nation
...
During the Babylonian Exile the exiled elite (most likely consisting of Northerners and Southerners) begins to see themselves as Yehudi and implants that identity on the commoners who had remained in Judea when they return.
Yehudi (HE) -> Ioudaîos (GR) -> iudaeus (LA) -> juiu (FR) -> Jew (EN)
...
Samaritans are most likely Israelites, the idea that they are foreign occupants makes no sense, they are most likely the remnant of the North which denied the new Jewish identity.
Hebrews is simply another word for Israelites in a I'd say more religious manner for the mythical pre-Kingdoms era.
Though it is sometimes used by Christians in a questionable manner, especially because of their "Book of Hebrews".
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
The speech of the prophets is a sign language. Their words are symbols and with the symbols they are doing signs.
"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word". John.
When you can see the signs then you can hear the speech is true.
Like it is exactly as the prophet Isaiah says: the wolf is with the lamb, the leopard is with the kid goat, and the lion eats straw with the Ox.
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Bear - Deer - Horse
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Prophecy is fulfilled the moment it is spoken. So their signs can be verified at any time.
Brian2
Veteran Member
And yes I would not be surprised if the prophecy has a double meaning. However for me it applies to the Messiah and I have read comments from rabbis who see it as Messianic also.