Jews, Ezra and Qur'an

[firedragon]

Would you mind Tumah if I asked a completely irrelevant question?

Why do you type G-d instead of God? I have seen another person do so too.

Is there a reason?

 

[firedragon]

So you are saying that this was a group of Jews and not the whole nation?
Then why does the ayah compare them to the Christians who for the most part all believe that Jesus is the son of god? Why doesn't it make clear that this is only a small group? That would be a great answer, but the language that the Qur'an uses, does not indicate what you are saying..

You're right.

 

[Godobeyer]

That's not really an answer is it? The prophets that G-d sent were not because the Jews were rebellious. There are many prophecies that have nothing to do with rebellion. And if G-d sends prophets to the rebellious, then where is the prophet that is correcting ISIS and Ahmaddis and all the rest?

Between the last Jewish prophet and Muhammad 1,000 years past. If the Jews were rebellious, why didn't He send more prophets?

It is very doubtful, because all the Jews know that it is a metaphor, because G-d does not impregnate women. Otherwise we would not have such a big problem with Christianity.

Regardless of all this, my argument still stands, because if this was some time in the past, then why does the ayah condemn the Jews for it instead of praising them for fixing the error?

If there is no verses in Torah did not mention that Jews were rebellious with messangers of God, I would believe you.

Actually God sent many messangers and then being rebellious with ,that's did not consider as favor. on contrary that condemnation.

Story of Uzar, just like story of calf,and sabath ....etc
Read your Torah(corrupted Torah), you will find you that it named Jews, and some messangers, "son of God ", not wonder the Jews consider someone of them as son of God.

EDITED to add

for your comments why God did not send again,ISIS ..;etc

we can't order God what to do, after He sent His messages.

 

[Tumah]

If there is no verses in Torah did not mention that Jews were rebellious with messangers of God, I would believe you.

Actually God sent many messangers and then being rebellious with ,that's did not consider as favor. on contrary that condemnation.

Story of Uzar, just like story of calf,and sabath ....etc
Read your Torah(corrupted Torah), you will find you that it named Jews, and some messangers, "son of God ", not wonder the Jews consider someone of them as son of God.

EDITED to add

That doesn't really answer the question, because you are again falling to the "maybe some of the Jews considered Ezra the son of god." That brings us back to the problem of why did the Qur'an not explain that its only talking about some of the Jews so that people who don't know won't make the mistake of assuming that its all of them? And why did the Qur'an compare them to the Christian the majority of whom believe that Jesus is the son of god? The language is very misleading, to the extent that if someone didn't know any Jewish history, they'd think that all the Jews did so.

for your comments why God did not send again,ISIS ..;etc

we can't order God what to do, after He sent His messages.

Because after Mt. Sinai, G-d doesn't send prophets from the non-Jews or to the non-Jews (with some exception). The information they need is already out there and its up to them to choose to listen or not.

 

[Tumah]

You're right.

Well that's one way to end the debate.

 

[firedragon]

Well that's one way to end the debate.

BTW, I asked you earlier but I dont know how to direct a post at someone.

Why do you say G-d instead of God. I see another member do the same. Is there a reason??

Just an irrelevant query.

 

[Godobeyer]

That doesn't really answer the question, because you are again falling to the "maybe some of the Jews considered Ezra the son of god." That brings us back to the problem of why did the Qur'an not explain that its only talking about some of the Jews so that people who don't know won't make the mistake of assuming that its all of them? And why did the Qur'an compare them to the Christian the majority of whom believe that Jesus is the son of god? The language is very misleading, to the extent that if someone didn't know any Jewish history, they'd think that all the Jews did so.

It's was not about majority or minority or cease not continous ,it's was telling even happened by both.

Read you Torah you will find out the root of that belief/problem is already exist.
(sons of God , some prophets called son of God) ..etc

So obviously it's not accusation.

Because after Mt. Sinai, G-d doesn't send prophets from the non-Jews or to the non-Jews (with some exception). The information they need is already out there and its up to them to choose to listen or not.

God is not ONLY for Jews.

Your belief is may consider Jews are ONLY tribe of human,that God sent prophets to ?

If yes , that different that mind, God sent to all humans prophets. and He sent the last prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to all humans.

Everyone is free to believe or disbelieve.

 

[Tumah]

BTW, I asked you earlier but I dont know how to direct a post at someone.

Why do you say G-d instead of God. I see another member do the same. Is there a reason??

Just an irrelevant query.

You just put a @ before you type the person's name that you want to send it to.

Its just a way of showing honor. Maybe you have the custom or Law not to call your parents by their names but to say, "father" and "mother" out of respect for them. G-d (and All-h) is a translation of one of the Names of G-d that can't be used for mundane reasons, so I guess the custom fell to these words too.

 

[firedragon]

You just put a @ before you type the person's name that you want to send it to.

Its just a way of showing honor. Maybe you have the custom or Law not to call your parents by their names but to say, "father" and "mother" out of respect for them. G-d (and All-h) is a translation of one of the Names of G-d that can't be used for mundane reasons, so I guess the custom fell to these words too.

Oh. Thank you so much.

I used to always wonder. I asked another person but never got an answer.

Thanks again for taking the time.

Cheers.

 

[Tumah]

It's was not about majority or minority or cease not continous ,it's was telling even happened by both.

Read you Torah you will find out the root of that belief/problem is already exist.
(sons of God , some prophets called son of God) ..etc

So obviously it's not accusation.

I think you should read the passage over again, because the entire surah is clearly dedicated to accusing various people of things. Ayat 30-35 are clearly a bunch of accusations culminating in the punishment that awaits them in Jahannam. Come on. What do you take me for?

God is not ONLY for Jews.

I didn't say that He was. G-d is the G-d of everyone and everything. What's that got to do with anything?

Your belief is may consider Jews are ONLY tribe of human,that God sent prophets to ?

From the time we received the Torah and onward, yes. Although it depends on what you mean by "sent prophets to". The Jews already had prophets and G-d just gave some of those prophets messages that were relevant to all the people.

If yes , that different that mind, God sent to all humans prophets. and He sent the last prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to all humans.

But it was kind of a waste really. The Jews were already doing all the things that Muslims do + a lot more. So Muhammad didn't really add anything to that. Unless you want to say that Islam says that Muhammad was sent to everyone except the Jews.

Everyone is free to believe or disbelieve.

That is true.

 

[Godobeyer]

I think you should read the passage over again, because the entire surah is clearly dedicated to accusing various people of things. Ayat 30-35 are clearly a bunch of accusations culminating in the punishment that awaits them in Jahannam. Come on. What do you take me for?

Accusation for people whom did that.
as whom breaking sabath law, and worship the caft....etc

I didn't say that He was. G-d is the G-d of everyone and everything. What's that got to do with anything?


From the time we received the Torah and onward, yes. Although it depends on what you mean by "sent prophets to". The Jews already had prophets and G-d just gave some of those prophets messages that were relevant to all the people.

You reject Jesus (pbuh). and you are in waiting of Messiah.

(for Islam view) the Jews were rebellious.

But it was kind of a waste really. The Jews were already doing all the things that Muslims do + a lot more. So Muhammad didn't really add anything to that. Unless you want to say that Islam says that Muhammad was sent to everyone except the Jews.


That is true.

Because Torah is correpted its contains some fatal errors and insults about God and insults of Prophets. which may God will reject your belief.

The eartly Jews didnot preach the message of God to humanity.

and reject messangers of God, according to Islam view, Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh).

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The eartly Jews didnot preach the message of God to humanity.

They weren't told to! How many times does this need to be said?

 

[Tumah]

Accusation for people whom did that.
as whom breaking sabath law, and worship the caft....etc

Please try again in English.

You reject Jesus (pbuh). and you are in waiting of Messiah.

(for Islam view) the Jews were rebellious.

You are waiting for the Mahdi, and for you Jesus was just a prophet.

Because Torah is correpted its contains some fatal errors and insults about God and insults of Prophets. which may God will reject your belief.

and reject messangers of God, according to Islam view, Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh).

Let's try this. Your father wants you to take a shower before you go to mosque. He asks your brother to go to tell you to take a shower before you go to the mosque. You don't believe your father sent your brother, but you know anyway that your father wants you to take a shower before you go to the mosque so you take one.
What is the problem?

The eartly Jews didnot preach the message of God to humanity.

Neither do the later Jews. If G-d wants humanity to know about Him, He can send them prophets!

 

[Godobeyer]

Please try again in English.

I tried it before , but you did not convinced
You just keep insist it's talk about ALL Jews,and it's talked about ALL Christains .

that's totally wrong.

You are waiting for the Mahdi, and for you Jesus was just a prophet.

I am NOT waiting for Mahdi , and Mahdi for me and may others is not a prophet.

Let's try this. Your father wants you to take a shower before you go to mosque. He asks your brother to go to tell you to take a shower before you go to the mosque. You don't believe your father sent your brother, but you know anyway that your father wants you to take a shower before you go to the mosque so you take one.
What is the problem?

I don't know what this post is relate to my previous post about the insults to God and His prophets !

Anyway everyone will judge for his deeds and his beliefs.

Neither do the later Jews. If G-d wants humanity to know about Him, He can send them prophets!

He already sent,anywas just Jews conserved bit.

and Muslims take the duty now.

 

[Godobeyer]

They weren't told to! How many times does this need to be said?

I am talking about Islam view, I don't take Jewish view in this issue.

 

[Tumah]

I tried it before , but you did not convinced
You just keep insist it's talk about ALL Jews,and it's talked about ALL Christains .

that's totally wrong.

So prove it already from the ayat of that surah. That's all I'm waiting for. You keep telling me that its not true and giving me reasons why its not true. But you don't show me from the surah that its not true.

I am NOT waiting for Mahdi , and Mahdi for me and may others is not a prophet.

So I guess Muhammad did a good job making sure that All-h's words are perfectly clear so that no Muslim will ever interpret the Qur'an the wrong way...

I don't know what this post is relate to my previous post about the insults to God and His prophets !

Anyway everyone will judge for his deeds and his beliefs.

Because it demonstrates that disbelief in the messenger is irrelevant if the actual requirement are being kept anyway.

He already sent,anywas just Jews conserved bit.

and Muslims take the duty now.

Conserved?
Why didn't All-h send every nation their own prophets? Why did He only send Muhammad at the end, who He knew most people wouldn't believe? Can you name any prophets from the time period between Musa and Isa that were sent to the nations?

 

[Godobeyer]

So prove it already from the ayat of that surah. That's all I'm waiting for. You keep telling me that its not true and giving me reasons why its not true. But you don't show me from the surah that its not true.

I proved it.but you don't convinced.

So I guess Muhammad did a good job making sure that All-h's words are perfectly clear so that no Muslim will ever interpret the Qur'an the wrong way...

This is has nothing to do with Mahdi issue.

Because it demonstrates that disbelief in the messenger is irrelevant if the actual requirement are being kept anyway.

In Islam view it's not allow to insult God or His messangers.

Conserved?
Why didn't All-h send every nation their own prophets? Why did He only send Muhammad at the end, who He knew most people wouldn't believe? Can you name any prophets from the time period between Musa and Isa that were sent to the nations?

That's the problem of earlie Jewsthey failed,and plus of that they fake it.

You can't suggest to God what to send and when .

Edited to add:
Just curious question
Can you name any prophet sent to non-Jews (told in Torah) ?

 

[Tumah]

I proved it.but you don't convinced.

From the Qur'an or from your logic?

This is has nothing to do with Mahdi issue.

That's true. Its just hard to know which type of Muslim views is the one that All-h intended when he sent Muhammad.

In Islam view it's not allow to insult God or His messangers.

That's besides the point. The point is that Muhammad didn't add anything for the Jewish people. So I wonder if maybe Muslims believe he was sent for everyone but the Jews.

That's the problem of earlie Jewsthey failed,and plus of that they fake it.

The problem of earliest Jews or the problems of earliest prophets? None of the Jewish prophets said to preach to the nations and they themselves didn't either.

You can't suggest to God what to send and when .

But I can question.

Edited to add:
Just curious question
Can you name any prophet sent to non-Jews (told in Torah) ?

Noah, Shem, Abraham, Balaam, Be'or, Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zopher, Elihu (he was from Abraham's family, but he prophecied for others).

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I am talking about Islam view, I don't take Jewish view in this issue.

Which doesn't mean much because you're retroactively applying your own claims to Jewish scripture and trying to force it to fit.

In Islam view it's not allow to insult God or His messangers.

Are you equating disbelief in a prophet's claims with insulting them or God?

That's the problem of earlie Jewsthey failed,and plus of that they fake it.

The problem with confirmation bias is that once you've arrived at a conclusion, you'll try literally anything (including reading a meaning into scripture that was never there to begin with) in order to prove you're right - even if the evidence flies in your face. Don't you think that if the Jews, being a pretty religious bunch, were told to go and proselytise to the non-Jewish societies around them that they'd have done that? Oh wait, no you probably don't. Because it's far more likely that they corrupted their own scripture so that the Muslim one didn't match it and don't really believe in God because they reject Muhammad and (the Muslim version of) Jesus's claims of prophethood than Islamic claims about the Jews are wrong

 

[Tumah]

The problem with confirmation bias is that once you've arrived at a conclusion, you'll try literally anything (including reading a meaning into scripture that was never there to begin with) in order to prove you're right - even if the evidence flies in your face. Don't you think that if the Jews, being a pretty religious bunch, were told to go and proselytise to the non-Jewish societies around them that they'd have done that? Oh wait, no you probably don't. Because it's far more likely that they corrupted their own scripture so that the Muslim one didn't match it and don't really believe in God because they reject Muhammad and (the Muslim version of) Jesus's claims of prophethood than Islamic claims about the Jews are wrong

Don't let the cat out of the bag!
This past Wednesday we fasted from 5:30pm to 6:30 pm (some until ~7:30 pm) the next day - no food, water or any type of bathing or washing- and prayed in the synagogue for about a total of ~12 hours during that period (including 3 hours straight at the end of the day), because we don't believe in G-d. That's 8 days after the previous fast which itself came immediately after two days of prayer (~8 hours per day) on the New Year. Of course then goes the holiday that begins tonight (of which I personally spent ~$500 of money that I don't have to spare for necessary religious items), where we're not going to eat or sleep outside of very comfortable hut for a week. It does get a little chilly at night, and its kind of rough having to always make sure there's one available every time you want to eat a little snack. But hey, I'd rather do all that than believe in G-d.

You see, if we really believed in G-d, we wouldn't do all that. Instead we'd believe in Muhammad and eat lobster and not corrupt our Torah to make it say that we need to do all those other things.