Jews in the Qur'an.

[dybmh]

You are denying that the above is a direct reference to the Qur'an, but you fail to say what it is referring to.

You cropped my post. Do it again and I'm putting you on ignore and I will not ever reply to you again. Unlike you, when I say this, I mean it.

Here's what I posted:

 

[stevecanuck]

I forgot to include this earlier:

Verse 2:65 contains a frequently mischaracterized claim. Some say it calls all Jews apes, but in fact it tells of a specific group of ancient Jews who worked on the Sabbath in defiance of Allah's wishes. As punishment He turned them into apes. Some Muslims therefore, rather than calling Jews apes, instead call them descendants of apes - a distinction without much of a difference.

 

[stevecanuck]

You cropped my post. Do it again and I'm putting you on ignore and I will not ever reply to you again. Unlike you, when I say this, I mean it.

View attachment 84051

Here's what I posted:

View attachment 84052

Yes, you crossed out "[the Qur'an]", which means you don't agree that it refers to the Qur'an. If you're willing to not waste any more of my time by not responding again, all I can say is "HURRAAYYYY". Leave if you want to.

 

[stevecanuck]

Verse 2:98 reiterates the theme of verse 41:28 which defines unbelievers as enemies of Islam - "Whosoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His Messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael - surely Allah is an enemy to the unbelievers". This applies to Jews as much as any other non-Muslim. As stated in many hundreds of verses, simple rejection of Mohamed's claim of prophethood is blasphemy, and to blaspheme is to be an enemy of Allah, Islam, and Muslims.

 

[stevecanuck]

Verses 2:99-105 are more of the same:

- 2:99, "We have sent down to thee [Jews] Manifest Signs [the Qur'an]; and none reject them but those who are perverse".
- 2:100 says Jews can not be trusted to keep their promises to Allah.
- 2:101-103 say Jews ignore Allah's prophets while listening to devils to their detriment.
- 2:105 continues this endless rebuke - "Neither those who disbelieve from the People of the Scripture nor the polytheists wish that any good [the Qur'an] should be sent down to you [Mohamed] from your Lord".

 

[sun rise]

The rebuke of the Jews by the Jewish prophets in Tanach is more harsh than anything I have seen in the Quran.

And if my source is correct, the Talmud says "We don’t see things as they are; we see things as we are."

 

[dybmh]

And if my source is correct, the Talmud says "We don’t see things as they are; we see things as we are."

I think you have this flip-flopped a bit, Sunrise.

There is something I recall about thinking and speaking positive that it has a profound mystical, and literal, effect on reality. In this way, yes, perception effects reality. But in Judaism, it's not a false perception. It's not a "silver lining". It's considered literally true. The Jewish person is a "partner in creation". Thoughts and speech matter in a profound way.

If your "source" is a kabbalah newsletter or something, this is a topic that comes up from time to time. And it can easiy be confused with the Yoga-quote you posted. Naturally, you're going to be inclined to link up Jewish philosophy with Hindu philosophy, and there is some crossover. But Judaism takes it in an opposite direction.

 

[dybmh]

Yes, you crossed out "[the Qur'an]", which means you don't agree that it refers to the Qur'an. If you're willing to not waste any more of my time by not responding again, all I can say is "HURRAAYYYY". Leave if you want to.

It doesn't refer to the entire Quran.

I forgot to include this earlier:

Verse 2:65 contains a frequently mischaracterized claim. Some say it calls all Jews apes, but in fact it tells of a specific group of ancient Jews who worked on the Sabbath in defiance of Allah's wishes. As punishment He turned them into apes. Some Muslims therefore, rather than calling Jews apes, instead call them descendants of apes - a distinction without much of a difference.

Here you have your own evidence that Jews do not need to convert.

We have sent down to thee [Jews] Manifest Signs [the Qur'an]; and none reject them but those who are perverse".

It''s false to add "The Quran" here as well. The context is the signs that were given at Sinai and through the Torah.

2:100 says Jews can not be trusted to keep their promises to Allah.

Not all Jews

2:101-103 say Jews ignore Allah's prophets while listening to devils to their detriment.

Not all Jews

2:105 continues this endless rebuke - "Neither those who disbelieve from the People of the Scripture nor the polytheists wish that any good [the Qur'an] should be sent down to you [Mohamed] from your Lord".

You've added "The Quran" in error. This is a gentle rebuke compared to what is in the Hebrew bible.

"Endless" is nothing but imaginary delusional nonsense. It ended with verse 105. And in verse 112, ALL are included, no one needs to convert.

​

Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.​

​

Whoever.

 

[Link]

Salam

@dybmh I find myself agreeing with @stevecanuck for most of these interpretations. The Quran does not accept disbelief in Mohammad (s) and in fact, I would argue neither does it accept disbelief in Ali (a) so let alone Quran.

 

[dybmh]

Salam

@dybmh I find myself agreeing with @stevecanuck for most of these interpretations. The Quran does not accept disbelief in Mohammad (s) and in fact, I would argue neither does it accept disbelief in Ali (a) so let alone Quran.

Can you show me something in the Quran which contradicts the Torah in a substantial manner? Minor differences in the biblical story do not matter.

Regarding disbelief in Mohammad, that is not a problem, in my opinion. There is a middle ground moderate option, but I doubt you will like it. Is there anything in the Quran which asserts that Mohammad is inerrant? I have looked and found none. Lacking this, there is no problem at all in Judaism considering belief in him as a prophet. Whatever matches the Torah could be considered divine.

 

[stevecanuck]

It doesn't refer to the entire Quran.

That's a pointless quibble. Everybody knows it took 22 years for Mohamed to invent the Qur'an. Clearly he demanded that the Jews embrace the process and follow Islam as it developed. Your deflections are weak and meaningless.

Here you have your own evidence that Jews do not need to convert.

Now that Mohamed has come along with an update known as the Qur'an, of course they do. That is EXACTLY what he is telling them.

It''s false to add "The Quran" here as well. The context is the signs that were given at Sinai and through the Torah.

Again, ADDITIONAL signs - the Qur'an.

Not all Jews
Not all Jews

As I've repeatedly said - those Jews who don't accept Mohamed's additional 'revelations'.

You've added "The Quran" in error. This is a gentle rebuke compared to what is in the Hebrew bible.

"Endless" is nothing but imaginary delusional nonsense. It ended with verse 105. And in verse 112, ALL are included, no one needs to convert.

​

Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.​

​

Whoever.

Yet again, that means to accept this new addition to Allah's revelations.


Okay, you and I are done. I could not be more clear if I tried, and you will never concede the point.

Of course you may flame away as you like, but you will do so on your own. Good bye.

 

[stevecanuck]

Verse 2:109 is noteworthy for two reasons. One, it addresses Muslims in the middle of verses directed at Jews, and two, it could easily be seen to sow the seeds of conflicts to come - "Many Jews and Christians (People of the Book) wish they could cause you (Muslims) to backslide from Islam, but be patient with them until Allah gives His command". What follows after Allah "gives his command" remains to be revealed. Hint: It involves killing.

 

[Link]

Can you show me something in the Quran which contradicts the Torah in a substantial manner? Minor differences in the biblical story do not matter.

Regarding disbelief in Mohammad, that is not a problem, in my opinion. There is a middle ground moderate option, but I doubt you will like it. Is there anything in the Quran which asserts that Mohammad is inerrant? I have looked and found none. Lacking this, there is no problem at all in Judaism considering belief in him as a prophet. Whatever matches the Torah could be considered divine.

There is a different total understanding of the status of a Prophet and their chosen exalted nature in the Quran. I would say the chosen status is in the Bible but there is a contradiction. It emphasis on their sublime nature at the same time negating it when for example Solomon (a) dies a pagan or David (a) essentially sets up one of his commanders to die or Lot (a) sleeps with his daughters, etc.

 

[Link]

Verse 2:109 is noteworthy for two reasons. One, it addresses Muslims in the middle of verses directed at Jews, and two, it could easily be seen to sow the seeds of conflicts to come - "Many Jews and Christians (People of the Book) wish they could cause you (Muslims) to backslide from Islam, but be patient with them until Allah gives His command". What follows after Allah "gives his command" remains to be revealed. Hint: It involves killing.

This one translation, "God comes with his command/authority/affair/matter", I put all these translations. Else where, we see God coming with his authority refers to the day of judgment, it's called also "the day of truth" and "The day no soul controls regarding any soul and the authority/matter is with God".

In this case, it's probably referring to day of judgment.

 

[dybmh]

There is a different total understanding of the status of a Prophet and their chosen exalted nature in the Quran. I would say the chosen status is in the Bible but there is a contradiction. It emphasis on their sublime nature at the same time negating it when for example Solomon (a) dies a pagan or David (a) essentially sets up one of his commanders to die or Lot (a) sleeps with his daughters, etc.

I asked specifically for Quran verses which contradict Torah and verses which assert inerrancy on Muhammad.

Lacking this, what justification from Allah is there to agree with Steve Canuck's interpretation?

 

[Link]

I asked specifically for Quran verses which contradict Torah and verses which assert inerrancy on Muhammad.

Lacking this, what justification from Allah is there to agree with Steve Canuck's interpretation?

This is would be a thing to miss the forest for the trees.

 

[Link]

Here is a verse that shows the conduct of chosen ones can only be righteous:

قَالَ يَا نُوحُ إِنَّهُ لَيْسَ مِنْ أَهْلِكَ ۖ إِنَّهُ عَمَلٌ غَيْرُ صَالِحٍ ۖ فَلَا تَسْأَلْنِ مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِهِ عِلْمٌ ۖ إِنِّي أَعِظُكَ أَنْ تَكُونَ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ | Said He, ‘O Noah! Indeed, He is not of your family. Indeed, it/he is a conduct that is not righteous. So do not ask Me [something] of which you have no knowledge. I advise you lest you should be among the ignorant.’ | Hud : 46

As you probably already know, the Quran, shows Prophets come in groups, and they all have a family chosen for them by God. Nuh (a) misunderstood God but didn't see how he possibly was misunderstanding, so he appealed to God. God responds that Nuh's (a) disbelieving son is not of the family of his he meant by, rather, his family that God meant can only be of people of righteous action.

 

[dybmh]

This is would be a thing to miss the forest for the trees.

Lacking verses from the Quran, what is the justification for these judgements of "non-belief".

This has become compulsion to Islam. So not only is th judgement lacking support from the Quran, it is becoming a violation of the Quran.

Where is this forest? Where is this judgement coming from? How do you know it is holy?

 

[Link]

Lacking this, what justification from Allah is there to agree with Steve Canuck's interpretation?

There's many verses:

وَهَٰذَا كِتَابٌ أَنْزَلْنَاهُ مُبَارَكٌ مُصَدِّقُ الَّذِي بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَلِتُنْذِرَ أُمَّ الْقُرَىٰ وَمَنْ حَوْلَهَا ۚ وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْآخِرَةِ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِهِ ۖ وَهُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ | Blessed is this Book, which We have sent down, confirming what was [revealed] before it, so that you may warn the Mother of Cities and those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in it, and they are guards of their prayers. | Al-An'aam : 92

 

[Link]

Lacking verses from the Quran, what is the justification for these judgements of "non-belief".

This has become compulsion to Islam. So not only is th judgement lacking support from the Quran, it is becoming a violation of the Quran.

Where is this forest? Where is this judgement coming from? How do you know it is holy?

Compulsion in this context means God doesn't force people to it neither by sword nor does he manifest his power like the way he will on the day of judgement.

However, the consequences in the next world are there if one doesn't commit to God and his guidance.