Jews in the Qur'an.

[Link]

6:92 shows that people who don't guard their prayers for example, they may deceive themselves about believing in heaven and hell, but it's not they actually truly believe in it. If they did, they would guard their prayers.

 

[dybmh]

Here is a verse that shows the conduct of chosen ones can only be righteous:

قَالَ يَا نُوحُ إِنَّهُ لَيْسَ مِنْ أَهْلِكَ ۖ إِنَّهُ عَمَلٌ غَيْرُ صَالِحٍ ۖ فَلَا تَسْأَلْنِ مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِهِ عِلْمٌ ۖ إِنِّي أَعِظُكَ أَنْ تَكُونَ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ | Said He, ‘O Noah! Indeed, He is not of your family. Indeed, it/he is a conduct that is not righteous. So do not ask Me [something] of which you have no knowledge. I advise you lest you should be among the ignorant.’ | Hud : 46

As you probably already know, the Quran, shows Prophets come in groups, and they all have a family chosen for them by God. Nuh (a) misunderstood God but didn't see how he possibly was misunderstanding, so he appealed to God. God responds that Nuh's (a) disbelieving son is not of the family of his he meant by, rather, his family that God meant can only be of people of righteous action.

I do not see anything here that says the "chosen ones" are righteous.

Regarding Noah, if this verse is claiming he is righteous, did you know that is an exact quote from the Torah?

אלה תולדת נח נח איש צדיק תמים היה בדרתיו את־האלהים התהלך־נח׃
These are the generations of Noah; Noah was Tzadik Tahmim ( perfectly righteous) in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
.
The challenge is: find something in Quran which contradicts Torah and something which asserts inerrancy on Muhammad.

This verse does neither.

 

[Link]

I do not see anything here that says the "chosen ones" are righteous.

Regarding Noah, if this verse is claiming he is righteous, did you know that is an exact quote from the Torah?

אלה תולדת נח נח איש צדיק תמים היה בדרתיו את־האלהים התהלך־נח׃
These are the generations of Noah; Noah was Tzadik Tahmim ( perfectly righteous) in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
.
The challenge is: find something in Quran which contradicts Torah and something which asserts inerrancy on Muhammad.

This verse does neither.

This is just one place and it does prove it. There's another thing the word astafa is not just selecting. It means choosing by the best or purest. The word ikhtaar is selecting, but the word astafa is a particular type of selecting, mainly, selecting of the highest tier.

 

[dybmh]

There's many verses:

وَهَٰذَا كِتَابٌ أَنْزَلْنَاهُ مُبَارَكٌ مُصَدِّقُ الَّذِي بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَلِتُنْذِرَ أُمَّ الْقُرَىٰ وَمَنْ حَوْلَهَا ۚ وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْآخِرَةِ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِهِ ۖ وَهُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ | Blessed is this Book, which We have sent down, confirming what was [revealed] before it, so that you may warn the Mother of Cities and those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in it, and they are guards of their prayers. | Al-An'aam : 92

This doesn't say Muhammad is inerrant. This doesn't contradict Torah. This doesn't establish a judgement of non-belief on a Jewish person keeping their covenant with Allah.

Compulsion in this context means God doesn't force people to it neither by sword nor does he manifest his power like the way he will on the day of judgement.

However, the consequences in the next world are there if one doesn't commit to God and his guidance.

That doesn't contradict Torah; it does not require belief in Muhammad as inerrant; it does not establish a judgement of non-belief on a Jewish person who is keeping their covenant with Allah.

Link, have you considered at all that these judgements against those who not hold to your beliefs and to your standards are NOT coming from the Quran and are NOT holy?

 

[dybmh]

This is just one place and it does prove it. There's another thing the word astafa is not just selecting. It means choosing by the best or purest. The word ikhtaar is selecting, but the word astafa is a particular type of selecting, mainly, selecting of the highest tier.

This still doesn't assert inerrancy in n any human being. This becoming shirk. There is only one that is inerrant. Agreed?

 

[Link]

وَقَالُوا اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَٰنُ وَلَدًا ۗ سُبْحَانَهُ ۚ بَلْ عِبَادٌ مُكْرَمُونَ | They say, ‘The All-beneficent has taken offsprings.’ Immaculate is He! Indeed, they are [His] honoured servants. | Al-Anbiyaa : 26

لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ وَهُمْ بِأَمْرِهِ يَعْمَلُونَ | They do not venture to speak ahead of Him, and they act by His command. | Al-Anbiyaa : 27

يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يَشْفَعُونَ إِلَّا لِمَنِ ارْتَضَىٰ وَهُمْ مِنْ خَشْيَتِهِ مُشْفِقُونَ | He knows that which is before them and that which is behind them, and they do not intercede except for someone He approves of, and they are apprehensive for the fear of Him. | Al-Anbiyaa : 28

 

[dybmh]

6:92 shows that people who don't guard their prayers for example, they may deceive themselves about believing in heaven and hell, but it's not they actually truly believe in it. If they did, they would guard their prayers.

Irrelevant, bro. It has nothing to do with the topic.

Have you considered that these judgements are not in the Quran for a reason? How do you know they are holy?

 

[dybmh]

وَقَالُوا اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَٰنُ وَلَدًا ۗ سُبْحَانَهُ ۚ بَلْ عِبَادٌ مُكْرَمُونَ | They say, ‘The All-beneficent has taken offsprings.’ Immaculate is He! Indeed, they are [His] honoured servants. | Al-Anbiyaa : 26

لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ وَهُمْ بِأَمْرِهِ يَعْمَلُونَ | They do not venture to speak ahead of Him, and they act by His command. | Al-Anbiyaa : 27

يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يَشْفَعُونَ إِلَّا لِمَنِ ارْتَضَىٰ وَهُمْ مِنْ خَشْيَتِهِ مُشْفِقُونَ | He knows that which is before them and that which is behind them, and they do not intercede except for someone He approves of, and they are apprehensive for the fear of Him. | Al-Anbiyaa : 28

None of this is inerrancy conferred on a human. This is becoming shirk. There is only one that is inerrant, agreed?

 

[Link]

Irrelevant, bro. It has nothing to do with the topic.

Have you considered that these judgements are not in the Quran for a reason? How do you know they are holy?

You are ignoring the obvious here. It's not irrelevant, because it shows people can deceive themselves about believing in the next world. For example, a person might tell himself he believes in God and next world, but Quran shows if you do not safeguard your prayers, you don't truly believe in the next world. Same with believing in the Quran. Those who believe in the next world, believe in the Quran.

 

[dybmh]

You are ignoring the obvious here

No dude. Listen.

If the metric is "believe in the Quran which was revealed to Muhammad" then it is completely wrong to demand that belief in WHAT IS NOT IN THE QURAN.

It is a bait and switch. Do you have that where you are? It's a con, a sham. That's not you, is it? That's not Islam is it?

"Believe in the Quran, it teaches X, Y, Z"

"Ok, where is X, Y, Z in the Quran?"​

"It's not in the Quran"

"Didn't you just ask me to believe in the Quran?"​

"Yes. Believe in the Quran, it teaches X, Y, Z"

"Ok, where is X, Y, Z in the Quran?"​

"It's not in the Quran."

"Ok, so when you told me it teaches X, Y, Z, that wasn't true, and believe in the Quran, doesn't really mean believe in the Quran?"​

"Right. The Quran teaches X, Y, Z, but it's not written in the Quran. To believe in the Quran, you have to submit to me too."

"Ok, where in the Quran does it say to submit to you? I only submit to Allah."​

"Yes, I am inerrant, and I am the Quran. Submit to me."

"Bye dude, you're Looney-Tunes. I'll stick with what's written in the Quran." Says the believer​

 

[stevecanuck]

This one translation, "God comes with his command/authority/affair/matter", I put all these translations. Else where, we see God coming with his authority refers to the day of judgment, it's called also "the day of truth" and "The day no soul controls regarding any soul and the authority/matter is with God".

In this case, it's probably referring to day of judgment.

That doesn't make sense. It doesn't say to 'be patient with them, and I will deal with them on Judgement Day'. It clearly says to 'hold off making a response until I give an order'. It logically follows that after said order is given that Muslims will therefore be told how to respond. It's obvious. Many verses are to come that order Muslims to kill.

 

[stevecanuck]

The challenge is: find something in Quran ... which asserts inerrancy on Muhammad.

Verse 68:4. However, the only perfection requirement of Mohamed is that he transmit the Qur'an properly.



Sahih International: And indeed, you are of a great moral character.

Pickthall: And lo! thou art of a tremendous nature.

Yusuf Ali: And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character.

Shakir: And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality.

Muhammad Sarwar: You have attained a high moral standard.

Mohsin Khan: And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character.

Arberry: surely thou art upon a mighty morality.

 

[dybmh]

Verse 68:4. However, the only perfection requirement of Mohamed is that he transmit the Qur'an properly.



Sahih International: And indeed, you are of a great moral character.

Pickthall: And lo! thou art of a tremendous nature.

Yusuf Ali: And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character.

Shakir: And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality.

Muhammad Sarwar: You have attained a high moral standard.

Mohsin Khan: And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character.

Arberry: surely thou art upon a mighty morality.

That is not inerrancy. The very best of character wouud never assert their own inerrancy. They would always allow for the possibility that they could be wrong.

 

[stevecanuck]

That is not inerrancy. The very best of character wouud never assert their own inerrancy. They would always allow for the possibility that they could be wrong.

Correct. As I said earlier, the only perfection requirement of Mohamed is that he transmit the Qur'an properly.

As to his character, he is held up as the best example to follow, but that in and of itself does not translate to inerrancy or perfection - only as good as it gets when it comes to humans.

 

[stevecanuck]

That is not inerrancy. The very best of character wouud never assert their own inerrancy. They would always allow for the possibility that they could be wrong.

Here's one that comes closer: 53:2 - "Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred.

 

[dybmh]

Here's one that comes closer: 53:2 - "Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred.

OK. That's a good one especially in context.

Did you read the entire Surah? It's rather clear what it means to be a believer.

 

[Link]

@dybmh, the verse says those who believe in the next world believe in the Quran. I don't know how I can make you perceive that except by quoting which I did.

 

[Link]

That doesn't make sense. It doesn't say to 'be patient with them, and I will deal with them on Judgement Day'. It clearly says to 'hold off making a response until I give an order'. It logically follows that after said order is given that Muslims will therefore be told how to respond. It's obvious. Many verses are to come that order Muslims to kill.

Meh, it's not that relevant to this thread. I don't want to derail.

 

[dybmh]

@dybmh, the verse says those who believe in the next world believe in the Quran. I don't know how I can make you perceive that except by quoting which I did.

Believing in the next world does not require any conversion of any kind.

Let's roll this back. 2 questions. Please answer these 2 questions directly.

Steve Canuck is claiming that someone is an unbeliever deserving of all the punishments described in the Quran if they do not convert to Islam. You said you agree with that interpretation. Do you? Do you actually agree that conversion is required for everyone?

If it is not written in the Quran, why are you asking me to believe it?

 

[Link]

Believing in the next world does not require any conversion of any kind.

Let's roll this back. 2 questions. Please answer these 2 questions directly.

Steve Canuck is claiming that someone is an unbeliever deserving of all the punishments described in the Quran if they do not convert to Islam. You said you agree with that interpretation. Do you? Do you actually agree that conversion is required for everyone?

If it is not written in the Quran, why are you asking me to believe it?

It's clearly written in the Quran and it's an implication of what I quoted, however, I'm really tired of people denying what it is clearly in there (for example Bahais denying the day of judgment), so I don't feel like quoting the hundreds of verses supporting what I'm saying. However, I take a middle ground between you and @stevecanuck . There are a concept of those who neither disbelieve nor believe because they haven't attained to the proof for legitimate reasons. Not out of desire of the Dunya, but legitimately not having a way to affirm the truth. They don't attain reward of the righteous. In fact, it's said the highest heaven and second highest is for believers, while the rest is for mankind that had no hatred towards the truth and no hatred towards believers. There is also those who mix good and evil and are awaiting God's Authority to judge them. They aren't believers nor disbelievers nor hypocrites, but struggling humans trying to be good but succumbing to evil. At the end, they will be tried with their deeds, if their good outweighs their bad, they will enter paradise.

I will give you a little more to support what @stevecanuck is saying. Verse 4:59 says that all disputes and differences should be referred to God and the Messenger if we believe in God and the last day. The "if we believe..." says we won't be divided from the rope of God regarding ANY matter of dispute within the community, that means, as sectarian as this sounds, only the people who refer to Quran and Sunnah properly for all disputes are truly believes in God and the last day. So this regarding the fact all sects other then the ones guided to the truth are not truly believers. This is even verified in Surah 2 (Baqara) that after disputes and differences arose to none but those who were revealed the scriptures every time Prophets were risen, that God guided the believers to what they differed and then affirms God guides the believers to a straight path.

So this means even within Twelver Shia community, those who don't refer disputes back to Quran and Sunnah, and follow their caprice don't truly believe in God and the last day. So how so, then for those who don't affirm the family of Mohammad (s), and how so more for those who don't affirm the Quran.