Jews: Why do they not accept Jesus as Messiah

[kjw47]

۩~Thomas Paine 'The Age of Reason'~۩​

These are words of a very respectable person and when reading this spectacular piece of literature I felt compelled to ask this question.

What are the specific key issues that make Jesus a unfulfillment of the Messiah? What are exactly the major blunders?

The Pharisees and saducees were looking for the messiah to be a mighty king right then and there and to defeat the romans right then and there. Also they looked down on the common ones as -Amharets--means like giving scraps( spiritual) to the dogs) Here comes a mere carpenters son trying to tell them they are wrong on many teachings, they tried to say his power was from satan--they hated Jesus . If they were humble they would have made corrections. They rejected Gods son, the one whom they expected on the scene about then as well.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm aware of their arguments, and yours. Present the first one you're prepared to defend.

To begin with there is Ezekiel 34:4

You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally.

It is a scathing rebuke to most Christians everywhere and proof positive that everything is not OK. Here's one that hits the preachers and ministers hard:

You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock.

Now then Ezekiel says the LORD promises Israel better things would happen, but they haven't happened through Christians, through the church which is the body of Christ. Instead there have been pogroms, leaving one of the most savored prophecies unfulfilled:

I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another.

So there are clearly things that Jesus has not done, yet, which messianic prophecies imply will happen.

 

[Sleeppy]

To begin with there is Ezekiel 34:4
It is a scathing rebuke to most Christians everywhere and proof positive that everything is not OK. Here's one that hits the preachers and ministers hard:
Now then Ezekiel says the LORD promises Israel better things would happen, but they haven't happened through Christians, through the church which is the body of Christ. Instead there have been pogroms, leaving one of the most savored prophecies unfulfilled:
So there are clearly things that Jesus has not done, yet, which messianic prophecies imply will happen.

All of that was fulfilled in the time it was said, and before it.

 

[Shermana]

To begin with there is Ezekiel 34:4
It is a scathing rebuke to most Christians everywhere and proof positive that everything is not OK. Here's one that hits the preachers and ministers hard:
Now then Ezekiel says the LORD promises Israel better things would happen, but they haven't happened through Christians, through the church which is the body of Christ. Instead there have been pogroms, leaving one of the most savored prophecies unfulfilled:
So there are clearly things that Jesus has not done, yet, which messianic prophecies imply will happen.

This is what I'm talking about when I say that anyone can make any verse into a Messianic prophecy and interpret it however they want, thus setting an arbitrary straw man of which to apply it to.

How do you know Ezekiel is not just referring to the time period between the Babylonian exiles until the Selucid Greeks?

How do you know that the time between the Messiah and the Age of Peace won't involve Tribulations?

 

[Levite]

Also they looked down on the common ones as -Amharets--means like giving scraps( spiritual) to the dogs)

First of all, the Perushim (Pharisees) in no way, shape, or form looked down on the common folk of the Jewish People. Their whole philosophy of law, exegesis, and Torah study revolves around making Torah accessible knowledge, making the commandments easily understandable and doable, for the average common person.

The majority of the Rabbis of the Talmud (who were Perushim and students of Perushim) were themselves common people. Hillel, for example, was a wood cutter; Shammai was a builder; Shimon ben Shetach and Rav Sheshet were porters; Rabbi Yitzchak was a blacksmith; Rabbi Chanina, Rabbi Yochanan ha-Sandlar, and Rav Oshaya Raba were shoemakers; Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish was an orchard guard; Rabbi Yehudah was a tailor; Rav Yosef was a miller; Rabbi Yossi ben Chalafta was a tanner; Rabbi Abin was a carpenter; Rabbi Nechemyah was a potter; Rav Chisda and Rav Papa were brewers and distillers; and so on.

Second of all, the term am ha-aretz has nothing to do with giving scraps to dogs-- spiritual or otherwise. It literally means "a nation of the earth," and it was idiomatically used in those times to refer to any common person or to the common ways and customs of secular society, or to refer to a generic non-Jewish nation or person.

 

[allright]

Why would anyone expect the Jews to recognize and accept the real Messiah when the whole Old Testament is them rejecting, persecuting and even killing the prophets God sent to them resulting in God sending them into exile again and again

 

[Brickjectivity]

This is what I'm talking about when I say that anyone can make any verse into a Messianic prophecy and interpret it however they want, thus setting an arbitrary straw man of which to apply it to.

How do you know Ezekiel is not just referring to the time period between the Babylonian exiles until the Selucid Greeks?

How do you know that the time between the Messiah and the Age of Peace won't involve Tribulations?

I see what you mean about straw men now. Then Matthew and the other writers of the gospels could do the same. They could set up any straw-man they liked and say it proved Jesus must have been the messiah. Rather than do so they seemed to prefer making him a virtual-messiah.

 

[Brickjectivity]

All of that was fulfilled in the time it was said, and before it.

Psalm 119:152 Long ago I learned from your statutes that you established them to last forever.

Ezekiel 34:23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. <--- hasn't happened if we are taking it literally

 

[Sleeppy]

Psalm 119:152 Long ago I learned from your statutes that you established them to last forever.

Ezekiel 34:23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. <--- hasn't happened if we are taking it literally

If you wanted to take it literally, what would be the prerequisites?.. The resurrection of David? Or a legal lineage?

 

[Shermana]

I see what you mean about straw men now. Then Matthew and the other writers of the gospels could do the same. They could set up any straw-man they liked and say it proved Jesus must have been the messiah. Rather than do so they seemed to prefer making him a virtual-messiah.

I do not discount the possibility that certain claims of fulfilling Messianic passages in the Gospels are later interpolations.

 

[Brickjectivity]

So...taking it literally it hasn't happened.

 

[Shermana]

So...taking it literally it hasn't happened.

How do you know that verse isn't referring to an Exilarch in between the aforementioned time periods?

Exilarch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Avi1001]

First of all, the Perushim (Pharisees) in no way, shape, or form looked down on the common folk of the Jewish People. Their whole philosophy of law, exegesis, and Torah study revolves around making Torah accessible knowledge, making the commandments easily understandable and doable, for the average common person.

The majority of the Rabbis of the Talmud (who were Perushim and students of Perushim) were themselves common people. Hillel, for example, was a wood cutter; Shammai was a builder; Shimon ben Shetach and Rav Sheshet were porters; Rabbi Yitzchak was a blacksmith; Rabbi Chanina, Rabbi Yochanan ha-Sandlar, and Rav Oshaya Raba were shoemakers; Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish was an orchard guard; Rabbi Yehudah was a tailor; Rav Yosef was a miller; Rabbi Yossi ben Chalafta was a tanner; Rabbi Abin was a carpenter; Rabbi Nechemyah was a potter; Rav Chisda and Rav Papa were brewers and distillers; and so on.

Levite, thank you for this info., I was not aware that the Talmudic Rabbis were essentially tradesmen. When did the culture develop that they became full time Rabbis and teachers ?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I do not discount the possibility that certain claims of fulfilling Messianic passages in the Gospels are later interpolations.

I said "making him" but I'm not assuming it thought the claims seem very timey wimey. The temple's destruction might have driven many people to great extremes of emotion and introspection. Look at what happened at Masada for example.

 

[Sleeppy]

So...taking it literally it hasn't happened.

You'd need to know the potential literal outcomes, according to law. There's a lot of wiggle room.

 

[Brickjectivity]

How do you know that verse isn't referring to an Exilarch in between the aforementioned time periods?

Exilarch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know that it isn't. Presuming that Sleeppy is looking at Ezekiel as a prophet whose words are inviolate and Ezekiel 34 as a block of text that is a package speaking about a single linear line of events, then it doesn't depend upon an interpretation of whether its about David or his dynasty since the verse 34:28 says "they will live in safety and no one will make them afraid." That is not the case nor has it been since before Ezekiel was born. Every bit of history about them is about them being oppressed or pillaged and always struggling. The brief period in which they had a king (following the Persian and Seleucid empires), was the tumultuous Maccabees period.

 

[Levite]

Levite, thank you for this info., I was not aware that the Talmudic Rabbis were essentially tradesmen. When did the culture develop that they became full time Rabbis and teachers ?

If you mean when did "rabbi" become a paid position, it was much later. Obviously, there were a few Rabbis of the Talmud who were able to essentially be paid teachers of Torah and halachic judges, full-time, but mostly they were limited to the Roshei Yeshivah (heads of the academies) of the very largest yeshivot, or halachic judges for the very largest and wealthiest Jewish communities in the world at that time. Most of them, even the greatest of them, made their living otherwise, if they were not lucky enough to be born wealthy (and most weren't). This was true far past the time of the Talmud, through the Middle Ages-- for example, Rashi was a vintner, Rambam was a physician, etc.-- and beyond-- for example, the Baal Shem Tov was a melamed (a children's teacher) and a digger and seller of clay, fuller's earth, and lime.

Rabbis who are paid by the community purely to be the communal spiritual leader, halachic judge, pastoral counselor, and advanced teacher of Torah, and have no other career or primary source of income, don't become at all common occurrences until probably the 1500s or 1600s, and don't become the universal norm until probably the 18th or even 19th century.

 

[Avi1001]

If you mean when did "rabbi" become a paid position, it was much later. Obviously, there were a few Rabbis of the Talmud who were able to essentially be paid teachers of Torah and halachic judges, full-time, but mostly they were limited to the Roshei Yeshivah (heads of the academies) of the very largest yeshivot, or halachic judges for the very largest and wealthiest Jewish communities in the world at that time. Most of them, even the greatest of them, made their living otherwise, if they were not lucky enough to be born wealthy (and most weren't). This was true far past the time of the Talmud, through the Middle Ages-- for example, Rashi was a vintner, Rambam was a physician, etc.-- and beyond-- for example, the Baal Shem Tov was a melamed (a children's teacher) and a digger and seller of clay, fuller's earth, and lime.

Very cool, Rabbi, thanks. I did not realize there was such a long tradition of the Rabbi / tradesman. Although I think the combination embodied by Maimonides, the Rabbi / physician, begins to look more like a "Professional Rabbi".

Rabbis who are paid by the community purely to be the communal spiritual leader, halachic judge, pastoral counselor, and advanced teacher of Torah, and have no other career or primary source of income, don't become at all common occurrences until probably the 1500s or 1600s, and don't become the universal norm until probably the 18th or even 19th century.

What are your thoughts about the notion of the "Professional Rabbi", that is the full time, paid, Rabbi / teacher ?

In some ways, I think the Rabbi / tradesman can relate better to the folks. But on the other hand, a leader, in some ways must be different from the folks.

Do you think it would be better if Rabbis were volunteer community leaders and teachers, thus requiring that they have a separate, successful vocation ?

 

[Flankerl]

The majority of the Rabbis of the Talmud (who were Perushim and students of Perushim) were themselves common people. Hillel, for example, was a wood cutter; Shammai was a builder; Shimon ben Shetach and Rav Sheshet were porters; Rabbi Yitzchak was a blacksmith; Rabbi Chanina, Rabbi Yochanan ha-Sandlar, and Rav Oshaya Raba were shoemakers; Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish was an orchard guard; Rabbi Yehudah was a tailor; Rav Yosef was a miller; Rabbi Yossi ben Chalafta was a tanner; Rabbi Abin was a carpenter; Rabbi Nechemyah was a potter; Rav Chisda and Rav Papa were brewers and distillers; and so on.

I think it would be good to have this situation again.

To me it really feels weird when i think about the weird personality cult of some Rabbis.

 

[Galen.Iksnudnard]

The Short answer is that Jesus probably wasn't the Messiah.

It's very possible that Jesus was a great thinker, probably in the same league as say Plato, Socrates or Maimonedes, but that alone did not make him the Messiah as he did not fulfill A SINGLE ONE of the Old-Testament prophecies.