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JK Rowling: Profoundly Misunderstood

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Like I said, its psychology

Not only. Also genitalia matter.

Because there are men who aren't interested in trans women, unless they still have the male genitalia.
They are not interested in trans women who had vaginoplasty because they do like male genitalia.
Does that make straight? Bi? Gay?

Why don't you analyze male preferences, as well?

Also lesbians are into ciswomen only because they don't like male genitalia. Or there can be some women who wouldn't date any person, unless they have female genitalia. Whether they are cis or not.
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you believe there are any legitimate reasons for a rape crisis centre to exclude a transwoman with a penis?
No. :) Treating transwomen pre-op or post-op as secret sexual predators when there's no evidence they're more likely to be assaulted by transwomen over other ciswomen (neverminding the breakdown of crime by other demographics commonly used to discriminate such as race and poverty)
is just part of the growing Stochastic terrorism towards transwomen. And why we're seeing huge violence spikes against transwomen in the UK.

Additionally, the crisis centers in question don't actually differentiate between pre-op and post-op, nor is there any language forbidding post-op transmen. Only people identifying as transwomen.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Blaire White is basically the online spokeswomen for the trans community. Far more of us agree with her views than you would know, especially as you're not part of our community and don't hear our internal discussions that we have amongst ourselves. There's the radicals and then there's everyone else. You see this even on echo chambers like Reddit. Arielle Scarcella is a lesbian ally who just speaks a lot of common sense that much of us agree with.
You've spoken at significant length about how you're not involved with the trans community so how would you know?

I'm not part of the trans community, that's true, but I do listen to lots of trans media sent to me largely by the trans friends i have here, not just on pretend centrist right leaning news sources or reddit. (Though I think you probably deeply underestimate leftist trans and nonbinary reddit.)

Also Blaire White, whose claim to fame is as a YouTube content creator, has less subscribers and views as Natalie Wynn Aka Contrapoints who I know you hate. Though if we're being real the largest trans media presence is on tiktok. And you can guess which direction that leans.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Because they're following a certain ideology that throws biological reality out of the window. Many doctors, therapists and "experts" are quacks, you know.

I don't see any evidence that all reputable medical institutions are following a certain ideology rather than science, though. I also don't think it's a tenable position to entirely dismiss medical consensus so simply.

I was asking the question to explore any nuance involved, because I'm not going to dismiss the experiences of trans people like you and @Shadow Wolf but also definitely not just going to chalk up the prevalent medical position to an unevidenced connection to ideology.

Men and women.

I meant non-binary people and others who don't identify with traditional gender norms. For many of them, "men and women" wouldn't be an accurate description, but it also seems that some trans people have genuine concerns about having them grouped under the transgender umbrella.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Of course most don't call themselves transsexuals because it's a deprecated term.

They are, however, transgender. You'll just have to get used to not being the arbiter of what that term means.
So transsexuals are those who have had vaginoplasty, for example?
whereas transgenders are those who identify with their biological genitalia, and are okay with it?
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So transsexuals are those who have had vaginoplasty, for example?
whereas transgenders are those who identify with their biological genitalia, and are okay with it?
Not necessarily. Not all transgender people use the term transsexual at all anymore, regardless of whether they've had hormone replacement or surgery. If you want some very in depth reading about it, the Wiki on the subject is huge. Transsexual - Wikipedia
 

JDMS

Academic Workhorse
So transsexuals are those who have had vaginoplasty, for example?
whereas transgenders are those who identify with their biological genitalia, and are okay with it?

All transsexual people are transgender, but not all transgender people are transsexual.

So a non-binary person could be transgender but not transsexual, or a binary trans man who's had surgeries could be transsexual and transgender if he chooses to use the label transsexual. Edit: technically a non-binary person can call themselves transsexual too, but I don't think most prefer to

That's how I consider it! :oops:
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
All transsexual people are transgender, but not all transgender people are transsexual.

So a non-binary person could be transgender but not transsexual, or a binary trans man who's had surgeries could be transsexual and transgender if he chooses to use the label transsexual. Edit: technically a non-binary person can call themselves transsexual too, but I don't think most prefer to

That's how I consider it! :oops:

The law here prescribes that in order for you to change the M into a F in your ID (and vice versa) you need HRT and bottom surgery (at least sterilization, that prevents the production of the hormones of your biological sex).
Why? Because transsexual people cannot be parents, after they transition.
So sterilization is a requirement.
The notion of a woman that is considered a biological father of a child, here it's not allowed.

Surgeries for MtFs are much easier...so I guess that FtMs can have a gender change in the ID even without sterilization. Which the State pays for, by the way.
 

JDMS

Academic Workhorse
Surgeries for MtFs are much easier...so I guess that FtMs can have a gender change in the ID even without sterilization. Which the State pays for, by the way.

State pays the full price? Holy smokes, that's nice. Bottom surgery is very expensive here in the US :(
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
State pays the full price? Holy smokes, that's nice. Bottom surgery is very expensive here in the US :(
Of course.
Not only transsexuals have had the misfortune to be born with the wrong genitalia...the State has a minimum of Christian mercy.

By the way...as for the esthetical surgeries...no, it's the patient who pay for it. Mastoplasty, etc..
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The tweet was critical, not supportive. It was a back handed compliment.

People can find a way to 'problematise' just about anything, so it's basically saying public people cannot have opinion on political issues or they will be misrepresented, most often by bad-faith actors doing so for their own personal benefit.

That's the nature of social media, so I suppose you lie in the bed you make, but I'd put far more blame on those milking the situation to enhance their status.

She was critical of the way he talked about other women, but she still supported his portrayal of "gender identity theory." I don't think she was misrepresented much when it comes to this particular tweet, because it was pretty clear compared to some of her other opinions that leave more room for reasonable discussion.

Public figures can have all of the opinions they want; I'm just saying that they have more responsibility when expressing themselves by sheer virtue of their relatively strong influence and reach. This goes for popular critics of Rowling too, partially because many celebrities and YouTubers have avid fans who could threaten and harass someone else just because their idol criticized them harshly. There have been numerous examples of such incidents over the years (whether targeting trans people or J. K. Rowling herself).

What degree of support did she offer?

All I've seen is she said people shouldn't be fired for saying sex is real, although she may have done more that I'm not aware of.

Do you think people should be able to hold the position sex is real without social sanction?

(Note: MF won her employment tribunal, so JKR was supporting someone who was legally judged to have been the victim of discrimination)

From what I've read, Rowling's support for Maya Forstater wasn't merely in terms of her employment but also in terms of ideology. Bear in mind that I intentionally avoid following J. K. Rowling to any considerable extent, so I don't know how her position on the whole case has developed since, if at all.

I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to by "social sanction," but in general, it seems to me that this varies on a case-by-case basis so much so that no general rule can apply to everyone who holds socially unacceptable views. White supremacism is socially unacceptable, and publicly supporting it is illegal in some countries (and rightfully so, in my opinion, because it's inherently inciting). On the other hand, atheism or, say, Hinduism is socially unacceptable in a lot of countries too, but of course I don't believe it should be illegal. Context matters.

But obviously, sex is real, and most trans people know this. Many of them wouldn't go to great pains in order to have hormone therapy and surgery otherwise; they don't need to be told that "sex is real" when they have gender dysphoria, for example. It's just that when some of the anti-trans ideologues say "sex is real," it's meant as a dismissal of the medical consensus that gender and sex are not synonymous and that gender isn't just a binary category, which is the position I gathered from Rowling's continual criticism of "gender identity theory."

What would you expect a disproportionate number of rapists to 'transition' rather than spend time in a men's prison where bored psychopaths spend their hours thinking of ingenious ways to maim sex offenders?

Scottish ministers say they did not know trans rapist was put in women’s jail

I wouldn't know what a disproportionate number would be without knowing the overall numbers of prisoners in general and trans prisoners in particular. This isn't something that intuition can answer.

Either way, though, I see this as a much more complex issue than a blanket allowance or blanket ban would imply. The position that all trans women who haven't medically transitioned should be banned from women's prisons is unnuanced and fails to take into account the vast majority who don't transition specifically to exploit the system. Similarly, I don't believe the law should allow for a rapist to just "identify" as a woman in order to avoid going to a men's prison either.

In order to prevent such ad hoc "transitions," perhaps the law could require a minimum amount of time of legally identifying as a specific gender before a person could be sent to the corresponding prison, which would render on-the-spot "transitions" useless as a means of avoiding men's prisons. I haven't thought long enough about this to know whether it could also have loopholes or other issues of its own, though.

Do you think that there are differences between ciswomen and transwomen that, in some cases, may justify different treatment?

Yes. Sports are a prime example. However, most of the examples I have seen are far blurrier than that of sports, and even different treatment in sports varies based on the nature of the sport itself (e.g., contact sports versus, say, swimming or running). Some people also present specific situations as warranting different treatment when they don't, such as those who argue that trans people should be identified by pronouns matching their sex rather than their gender.

If so, where would you draw the line, and what is an acceptable range of latitude around this 'line' that people may disagree on without being "transphobes" or bigots?

That almost entirely depends on context and on the specific situation in question. I also realize that some people may cross a line typically crossed by bigots without necessarily being bigots themselves. Many people are genuinely uninformed but not prejudiced—or at least not consciously and intentionally prejudiced—and this applies to all sorts of issues, not just trans-related ones.
 
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Treating transwomen pre-op or post-op as secret sexual predators when there's no evidence they're more likely to be assaulted by transwomen over other ciswomen

There is plenty of evidence that they are more likely to be assaulted by those born with a penis though.

And I can imagine that some women who had recently been assaulted might find this intimidating so that it no longer feels like a safe space.

Would you consider such a response as unacceptable bigotry?


Stochastic terrorism

Do you consider much of the vitriol aimed at JKR as “stochastic terrorism” too?
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There is plenty of evidence that they are more likely to be assaulted by those born with a penis though.
There's plenty of evidence that they're more likely to be assaulted by church clergymen, too. But taking that statement at face value and then monolithically applying it isn't constructive and is prejudicial.

Statistically transwomen are far nore likely to be the abused than the abuser.
And I can imagine that some women who had recently been assaulted might find this intimidating so that it no longer feels like a safe space.

Would you consider such a response as unacceptable bigotry?
I can imagine that some women who have recently been assaulted by a lesbian woman, or a person of a particular nationality or ethnic background, or under the influence of drugs, or with a visible mental illness, might have discomfort all the way to panic triggers and feel unsafe around those people recently post crisis.

Should then members of those groups be excluded based on the real lived experience of people who went through those ordeals? Because that's not how any crisis center I've been to before works. And I'll note here that I am also a rape survivor.
Do you consider much of the vitriol aimed at JKR as “stochastic terrorism” too?
"Much" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. There are absolutely people who have gone way overboard with vitriol against JK, up to and including death threats which are absolutely despicable.

Doesn't change TERF groups JK has allied with use of stochastic terrorism to malign transwomen as secret sexual predators and transmen as mentally ill women who need to be saved from themselves and the 'gender ideology.' (literally up to and including armchair diagnosing transmen as 'unconventionally feminine women and girls with autism who have been influenced by trans activism out of womanhood' in JK's 2020 'TERF Wars' piece.)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I was asking the question to explore any nuance involved, because I'm not going to dismiss the experiences of trans people like you and @Shadow Wolf but also definitely not just going to chalk up the prevalent medical position to an unevidenced connection to ideology.
I'm not dismissing anyone. I'm saying there's a difference between someone like me and someone who is nonbinary or someone like a drag queen. Drag is a performance art so I have no idea why we get dragged onto the drag book reading things. Nonbinaries are doing something entirely different. Crossdressers are doing something different.
That's why we used to be in individual groups and not lumped together. I feel that works better because we are going through different things, have different experiences, and have different needs.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I think the facepalm more come from - are you a lesbian? If not, perhaps don't speak on who they like and why. I know a few cisgender lesbians in relationships with transwomen.
I posted a couple of videos that show that some lesbians clearly state that they are into female genitalia, and they don't want to date trans women. Period.

I would like people here to address the content of the evidence posted. Because that would be equivalent to denying the evidence, with all due respect.
I never said all lesbians.

 
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