John Lennon's Imagine

[doppelganger]

The communist manifesto, that song.

I don't see that. The Communist Manifesto was Karl Marx's vision of an industrial worker's revolution against the Bourgeoisie capitalists in the next of what he believed was an historical chain of economic revolutions. This one, in Marx's view, would result in the control of capital and resources coming into the hands of workers.

A student of Hegel, Marx apparently didn't take very good notes. Hegel taught about cultural conflict or the dialectic in which a thesis comes into conflict with an emerging antithesis and the two change the culture between them into a synthesis.

Claiming to follow a similar idea based on an historical model, Marx claimed that the Industrial Revolution had created a monied capitalist class (thesis) and a huge industrial working class (antithesis) with competing interests, and that the workers were going to win out in this clash and take over the world. What's missing? The synthesis. What actually happened in countries that had a true industrial revolution was the rise of the regulatory state or social democracy, that passed measures to insure workers' rights and safety, protect the environment, regulate commerce and industry and healthcare and whole host of other things. In America this was the age of muckraking, the Progressive movement, the creation of new federal agencies to oversee food and drugs, mine safety, national parks, etc. That process hit a crescendo in FDR's New Deal, which didn't go through without a bitter fight in which we are still partly engaged.

The "communist" countries have been ones where there was no real industrial working class and where violent revolution was brought about not by power of economic forces of workers vs. capitalists but through cults of personality stimulating violence primiarily among impoverished and uneducated peasants. It didn't occur in any sigificantly industrialized nation. All the industrialized nations developed a socialist regulatory state to tend to the interests of its working class, i.e. a synthesis.

In Russia, for example, it was primarily an agricultural peasant revolution, which is why Lenin had to modify Marx. China barely had a functioning economy when Mao seized power. And while that nation's government is certainly totalitarian, it's economy and political structure could scarcely be described as "communist." Fascism is probably more like it.

Lennon's song seems more inspired by the otherworldly idealism of Christian brotherhood (which is also a sense of "communism") than anything resembling the political, historical and economic theories of Karl Marx, and cetainly resembles even less any national government that claimed to follow Marx in becoming "Communist."

 

[retrorich]

In the chorus of that song, John Lennon confessed to being a dreamer. But his dreams were no more fantastic than the concepts of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God; eternal life; Heaven and Hell.

No, John, you were not the only one. There will continue to be others who dream of a world without hatred, greed and hipocrisy. Will we ever see that dream come true? Probably not. But it's a beautiful dream, nonetheless.

R.I.P., John Lennon

 

[Random]

Lennon's song is beautiful and emotive, but he never meant it to be anything other than a paeon to a world which does and can only exist in the imagination.

If there were no religions tomorrow, someone would object and create one. If nobody laboured, we would all die in a few generations. If nobody observed politics of some description, life would be a chaotic dirge of lawless imbalance.

It's just a song. Get real.

 

[Green Gaia]

In the chorus of that song, John Lennon confessed to being a dreamer. But his dreams were no more fantastic than the concepts of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God; eternal life; Heaven and Hell.

No, John, you were not the only one. There will continue to be others who dream of a world without hatred, greed and hipocrisy. Will we ever see that dream come true? Probably not. But it's a beautiful dream, nonetheless.

R.I.P., John Lennon

:jam:

 

[ikitikitembo]

Religion has impacted the world through both extremes. Great, and horrible. We can't live with it...we can't live without it.

I think Lennon was being a bit more hyperbolic than literal.

 

[Buttercup]

You’re right of course, but religion is just one of the things mentioned in the song. It also says no countries, no greed, no hunger. There are many reasons to hate and to kill. The Question is can you imagine a world without them?

No, I cannot imagine a world without them. Hence, the reason man may have made up "heaven". Religious authors couldn't imagine an earth without countries, greed, hunger or war either. So, they had to concoct a place without it. Lennon is just musing like those authors would have. He was a dreamer.

Of course however.....we all should strive for a peaceful, well fed world. But as a realist, I don't think it will ever happen for any great length of time.

 

[may]

I think it's an amazing song. "Imagine...Nothing to kill or die for..." It reflects on just how much man has let himself become sidetracked, if you will, enamored with material things.



As long as there are people in the world who will allow themselves to be so caught up in an 'I, me, mine' attitude, whether in religion, politics, or otherwise, I fail to see how it would be possible. However, one can do his part (however small), and continue to hope.



Ultimately, religion has been another one of those things that man has exploited for his own cause, and its' nature is one that is, in fair part, subject to its' practitioner(s). Thus, in certain aspects, I feel religion has helped to make the world a better place, and in others, not so much.--I think that whatever your answer, religion can be said to have made the world a more interesting place, at least.



Actually, Lennon's 'Imagine' was inspired by Yoko Ono, and her childhood experiences during the second world war.

yes i also like this song , imagine a world without war ............. this is what the bible promises ,and there will come a time when war will be no more, in fact there are even now some people who are nolonger learning war anymore , they have beaten their weapons into plowshares ,and the bible promises that the whole earth will learn war no more
He (God)is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. psalm 46;9

(Isaiah 11:9) They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.​

(Micah 4:3) And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore........... when people are taught by the Almighty God Jehovah they do not learn war any more.
And all your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah, and the peace of your sons will be abundant isaiah 54;13

But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,​

And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of PEACE. psalm 37;11

 

[gnostic]

The reason is I like having my own nation because I believe and hope my own nation will do everything in its power to do what's best for me, its citizen. If we were a 100% globalized world then I fear there would be people on the other side of the world that know or understand little about me making decisions for me - decisions I may not agree with.

I think Lennon would be rolling in his grave in disgust because of the globalisation we are heading to, today.

 

[gnostic]

I always find it annoying to be lectured about possessions by people who own several apartments on Central Park West.

I didn't say I was a fan of John Lennon. Nor am I fan of the Beatles. I always thought Lennon was too arrogant and quite a match for Elvis in arrogance.

I always thought he was the hypocrite. I have seen his (music) video of him. He had a large mansion and he was playing a white grand piano. The piano itself was probably worth more than all that I possessed, so when he hear that verse,

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger

...I do think he is a hypocrite.

Nevertheless, I am less interested in the man himself, and more interested in the message of his song.

Everyone seems to be so hung up on getting out of this world or surviving this world, that they don't seem to understand what it means to "be here now". Maybe I'm stupid though.

Imagine all the people
Living for today...

I seemed to think that people who believe in the afterlife, such as Christians and Muslims think too much of rewards in heaven that they lose sight that they need to live here now.

BTW: You youngsters do understand that Lennon's "Imagine" is an lsd inspired utopia, right?

Perhaps he was, YmirGF. LOL :biglaugh:

 

[lilithu]

Can there be peace and fellowship for all, without religion or politics?

It does seem to be only a dream. But has religion really help?

The second verse does strike a chord. Religion has kept us divided, and there have been killing in the name of religion and people dying for religion, just as much for political reason.

What keeps us divided is people thinking there's something wrong with other people who think differently from them. Whether it's because they hold a different religion, no religion, or because they're anti-religionists who want to get rid of something near and dear to billions of people.


The second verse strikes a chord with you. Why not the third? Methinks you have to take the song as a whole.

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

What Lennon was singing about was breaking down the boundaries that divide "us" versus "them." All of the boundaries, not just religious and political. As a UU I would call it recognizing the interdependant web of existance (of which we are a part).

 

[darkpenguin]

to listen to and understand fully lennons song is true freedom of mind, body and spirit! the song is the greatest song ever bar none!if only it could happen, if only!

 

[lilithu]

In the chorus of that song, John Lennon confessed to being a dreamer. But his dreams were no more fantastic than the concepts of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God; eternal life; Heaven and Hell.

No, John, you were not the only one. There will continue to be others who dream of a world without hatred, greed and hipocrisy. Will we ever see that dream come true? Probably not. But it's a beautiful dream, nonetheless.

R.I.P., John Lennon

You have to believe that it will come true. That which we can imagine and believe in, we might be able to create. (No guarantees.) Whereas if we believe that it's a fantasy we doom it to staying a fantasy from the outset. Yes, I'm asking the atheist (and all others) to have faith, not in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God or eternal life, but in the Beloved Community. Heaven on earth. Because the alternative is Hell on earth, which is pretty much where we're at now.

 

[spacemonkey]

i dont think a true communist state was ever achieved george Orwells "animal farm" springs to mind

Four legs good, two legs bad.

 

[spacemonkey]

I don't see that. The Communist Manifesto was Karl Marx's vision of an industrial worker's revolution against the Bourgeoisie capitalists in the next of what he believed was an historical chain of economic revolutions. This one, in Marx's view, would result in the control of capital and resources coming into the hands of workers.

A student of Hegel, Marx apparently didn't take very good notes. Hegel taught about cultural conflict or the dialectic in which a thesis comes into conflict with an emerging antithesis and the two change the culture between them into a synthesis.

Claiming to follow a similar idea based on an historical model, Marx claimed that the Industrial Revolution had created a monied capitalist class (thesis) and a huge industrial working class (antithesis) with competing interests, and that the workers were going to win out in this clash and take over the world. What's missing? The synthesis. What actually happened in countries that had a true industrial revolution was the rise of the regulatory state or social democracy, that passed measures to insure workers' rights and safety, protect the environment, regulate commerce and industry and healthcare and whole host of other things. In America this was the age of muckraking, the Progressive movement, the creation of new federal agencies to oversee food and drugs, mine safety, national parks, etc. That process hit a crescendo in FDR's New Deal, which didn't go through without a bitter fight in which we are still partly engaged.

The "communist" countries have been ones where there was no real industrial working class and where violent revolution was brought about not by power of economic forces of workers vs. capitalists but through cults of personality stimulating violence primiarily among impoverished and uneducated peasants. It didn't occur in any sigificantly industrialized nation. All the industrialized nations developed a socialist regulatory state to tend to the interests of its working class, i.e. a synthesis.

In Russia, for example, it was primarily an agricultural peasant revolution, which is why Lenin had to modify Marx. China barely had a functioning economy when Mao seized power. And while that nation's government is certainly totalitarian, it's economy and political structure could scarcely be described as "communist." Fascism is probably more like it.

Lennon's song seems more inspired by the otherworldly idealism of Christian brotherhood (which is also a sense of "communism") than anything resembling the political, historical and economic theories of Karl Marx, and cetainly resembles even less any national government that claimed to follow Marx in becoming "Communist."

I don't think she meant litarally, just that Lennon's song is heavily slanted toward the communist ideology.

 

[retrorich]

Religion has impacted the world through both extremes. Great, and horrible. We can't live with it...we can't live without it.

I can--and do--live without religion quite nicely.

 

[ikitikitembo]

I can--and do--live without religion quite nicely.

lol. We, referring to the majority of human beings on earth.

 

[indecisive cookies!!!]

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[Valjean]

You have to believe that it will come true. That which we can imagine and believe in, we might be able to create. (No guarantees.) Whereas if we believe that it's a fantasy we doom it to staying a fantasy from the outset. Yes, I'm asking the atheist (and all others) to have faith, not in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God or eternal life, but in the Beloved Community. Heaven on earth. Because the alternative is Hell on earth, which is pretty much where we're at now.

Well put.

Why is "airy headed idealist" a term of derision rather than respect? Sure, our reach is likely to exceed our grasp, but if we just sit there with our arms folded no progress will be made at all.
Social progress has always been carried foreward by 'impractical' idealists; those who could and did imagine Lennon's brotherhood of man.




(hmmmm...did he say 'Lennon's', or 'Lenin's'...) :sarcastic

 

[lilithu]

Why is "airy headed idealist" a term of derision rather than respect? Sure, our reach is likely to exceed our grasp, but if we just sit there with our arms folded no progress will be made at all.
Social progress has always been carried foreward by 'impractical' idealists; those who could and did imagine Lennon's brotherhood of man.

A while back I heard Rabbi Michael Lerner talk to promote his book, "The Left Hand of God." And one of things he said that struck me the most was "Realism is an idolatry."

We have come to "worship" reality, hold it up as if what is is what should be. As you said, social progress has always been made by the idealists, those who refuse to be satisfied with what is.

 

[gnostic]

The song is without doubt, very inspiring, though I don't see it happening in reality any time soon.

I'd suppose that we can reach as close as we can possibly get, and that's all we can do - to do our best.

I thought we were getting close over 6 years ago. But people like Bush, Sharon and bin Laden set right us back to the time of Cold War.