John Macarthur opens church

[Callisto]

Today's church is STILL the biggest safeguard against dictatorship. Shut the church down (as they continue to do in so many countries) is the step that is necessary to keep the dictatorship.

So now it's today's Church. Ok, nice back pedal. You may want to look up the Pope's and the Argentinian church's not so distant complacency during Argentina's Dirty War - or is 30 years ago not recent enough? How about 2010, when Gen. Redondo was brought up on charges for the Dirty War, the Argentine Catholic Church didn't say a word, not one word of regret for its collaboration in those crimes. Is 10 years ago the distant past, too? Or Nicaragua? During the Sandinista revolt throughout the 1970s, the Church sided with the dictator Somoza Debayle. The brutality against the Nicaraguan people ended when Somoza was overthrown (circa 1980).

 

[Polymath257]

Except when it came to the divine rights of kings, Christian era Rome, 19th century France, its non-resistance to facism in Croatia and dubious stance during WWII; curious bedfellows with various Latin America dictators, to name some instances.

Oh, the list is much, much longer.

It seems that the divine right of kings wasn't seriously challenged until the power of the Church was broken and a more secular society was being built.

I wonder why.

 

[Polymath257]

Today's church is STILL the biggest safeguard against dictatorship. Shut the church down (as they continue to do in so many countries) is the step that is necessary to keep the dictatorship.

No, the *biggest* safeguard against dictatorship is an educated populace that is willing to work and fight for the safety and strength of the secular society.

Churches all too often work to keep their 'flocks' ignorant and pliable. This invites dictatorship.

 

[Callisto]

How many places do we lock down and for how long? No one who screams about it ever has an answer. How long?

As long as it takes. The problem is that there is no unified course of action and you have people who are willfully ignoring preventative measures. As a result, no state has managed to get levels of transmission lessened and the virus run out its course. Every time a bit of progress is made someone decides to disregard safety and... another flareup of cases occurs.

Think of it like antibiotics. There is a reason doctors tell you to take it for a full x-number of days, because even after the severity dies down, the infection is still there. It takes those remaining days to ensure it dies off. If you stop before the prescribe time because you feel better, it gives the infection the opportunity to recur. That's one of the reasons why we have superbugs that have become resistant to medication. People would rather do what they want without thinking through the scope of consequences.

 

[Jainarayan]

You realize that the person you're talking to lost his longtime job due to the lockdowns?

Yep, a 23 year career with the same company ended with a 10 minute phone call that included “thank you for your service”. Service that included working overnights and holiday weekends to install and/or upgrade (by myself) I-don’t-remember-how-many mainframe systems. It was an excuse. Most of us (I saw the list) were either long-term employees or *ahem* not right out of college if you get my drift. Done slyly of course. We’re too expensive.

People need to work to make a living in America and if you lose your income, there's no real help coming. Yeah, a lot of people would rather get Covid than to lose their livelihood and home, when it comes down to it. People need to be more understanding of others. This is real life and things are desperate.

Sometimes the worst COVID can do is a blessing for those who lose health insurance and can’t get any. I’ve been through three bait-n-switch “insurance” plans that were either discount plans, not insurance, prescription plans that GoodRx are better than, and allow for two primary care visits per year, no specialists or diagnostic tests, no ER visits or hospitalization. If you’re not 65, even though you’re eligible for Social Security at 63, you can’t get Medicare. The scripts I get monthly, instead of totaling less than $100 with my group insurance are now at least $1,000. Guess what? I’m stopping them. One is chemo... let nature take its course. This is what they want... weed out the weakest and the trash of humanity. I had a group life insurance policy of $360,000. Now have a Colonial Penn for $12,500 that won’t pay for two years. I cannot even die and leave anything.

So believe me, you said a mouthful... two mouthfuls. If anyone thinks I’m pissed off they’re goddam right [heh, filter must be on coffee break ]... it’s their cavalier living in a bottle out of touch reading statistics comments and mentalities. Sometimes living like this is the greater evil. What you said has not fallen on deaf ears. I just can’t do anything about it.

 

[Jainarayan]

As long as it takes. The problem is that there is no unified course of action and you have people who are willfully ignoring preventative measures. As a result, no state has managed to get levels of transmission lessened and the virus run out its course. Every time a bit of progress is made someone decides to disregard safety and... another flareup of cases occurs.

Think of it like antibiotics. There is a reason doctors tell you to take it for a full x-number of days, because even after the severity dies down, the infection is still there. It takes those remaining days to ensure it dies off. If you stop before the prescribe time because you feel better, it gives the infection the opportunity to recur. That's one of the reasons why we have superbugs that have become resistant to medication. People would rather do what they want without thinking through the scope of consequences.

“As long as it takes”. Parroted bull****. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Live our lives... those who’ve lost their careers and benefits because companies took advantage of this. Please do not hand me this line of ****. I’m not having it. “As long as it takes”. I don’t usually wish ill on people but I wish that every person who so cavalierly says “as long as it takes” loses everything the way so many of us have, are losing and will lose. Then I want to hear a different song.

 

[Callisto]

“As long as it takes”. Parroted bull****. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Live our lives... those who’ve lost their careers and benefits because companies took advantage of this. Please do not hand me this line of ****. I’m not having it.

Shovel your own myopic ****e. You won't have a life to live or a job to go to as long as the disease runs rampant. So what's your solution?

 

[Jainarayan]

Shovel your own myopic ****e. You won't have a life to live or a job to go to as long as the disease runs rampant. So what's your solution?

I don’t have a job anymore. I’m not likely to find a job. I don’t have a life because I have almost no income. I will not have a life because I can’t get medications I need to stay alive. Ironically, my death and others like me will be reported as covid related. The universe does indeed have a sense of humor worthy of me.

 

[Kenny]

So now it's today's Church. Ok, nice back pedal. You may want to look up the Pope's and the Argentinian church's not so distant complacency during Argentina's Dirty War - or is 30 years ago not recent enough? How about 2010, when Gen. Redondo was brought up on charges for the Dirty War, the Argentine Catholic Church didn't say a word, not one word of regret for its collaboration in those crimes. Is 10 years ago the distant past, too? Or Nicaragua? During the Sandinista revolt throughout the 1970s, the Church sided with the dictator Somoza Debayle. The brutality against the Nicaraguan people ended when Somoza was overthrown (circa 1980).

You can call it back-peddling in you want... but it was the intent.

Did Cuba close churches? Did China close churches? Did Russia close churches? Or do you want to just argue for argument sake

 

[Kenny]

No, the *biggest* safeguard against dictatorship is an educated populace that is willing to work and fight for the safety and strength of the secular society.

Churches all too often work to keep their 'flocks' ignorant and pliable. This invites dictatorship.

I don't think so... education in many of our colleges is anti-freedom of speech--a dictatorship necessity.

 

[Polymath257]

I don’t have a job anymore. I’m not likely to find a job. I don’t have a life because I have almost no income. I will not have a life because I can’t get medications I need to stay alive. Ironically, my death and others like me will be reported as covid related. The universe does indeed have a sense of humor worthy of me.

Blame this on those who ignore the masks, the social distancing, and the lockdowns. They are the ones that have kept this crisis going for so long.

If people had actually locked down for a few weeks back in MARCH, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now. But, no, they got tired of it and went back to 'normal', thereby prolonging and deepening the pain.

If we didn't have a president that has consistently done little to nothing about this crisis, we could be in a MUCH better shape than we are now. But no, no real organized federal program has been proposed, let alone put into action.

The economy isn't going to recover until we get this under control one way or another. We *could* have done it months ago, but we simply didn't have the discipline to carry through with it. Now, things are worse because of that lack.

At this point, there is not much left to do that wear a mask, keep social distance, and hope for an effective vaccine early that will be distributed quickly.

 

[Polymath257]

I don't think so... education in many of our colleges is anti-freedom of speech--a dictatorship necessity.

Frankly, that is more lack of education than real education.

I'd note that most churches are very anti-freedom of speech for those who disagree with the church.

 

[Polymath257]

You can call it back-peddling in you want... but it was the intent.

Did Cuba close churches? Did China close churches? Did Russia close churches? Or do you want to just argue for argument sake

Did Louis Phillipe open churches? Yes.

Did Nazi Germany open churches? Yes.

Did Pinochet open churches? Yes.

Did Franco open churches? Yes.

Some dictators fight churches. Others use them to support their power. In neither case, do churches actually help prevent dictatorship.

 

[Jainarayan]

Blame this on those who ignore the masks, the social distancing, and the lockdowns. They are the ones that have kept this crisis going for so long.

If people had actually locked down for a few weeks back in MARCH, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now. But, no, they got tired of it and went back to 'normal', thereby prolonging and deepening the pain.

If we didn't have a president that has consistently done little to nothing about this crisis, we could be in a MUCH better shape than we are now. But no, no real organized federal program has been proposed, let alone put into action.

The economy isn't going to recover until we get this under control one way or another. We *could* have done it months ago, but we simply didn't have the discipline to carry through with it. Now, things are worse because of that lack.

At this point, there is not much left to do that wear a mask, keep social distance, and hope for an effective vaccine early that will be distributed quickly.

Wrong, save the sermon. NJ did what was ordered in March and April and flattened the curve by May. We were told by Horsetooth that if this happened the restrictions would be eased. This happened, but the ******* tightened the restrictions and has been extending the “health crisis” month by month by month. We were so cooperative we have an average 14-16% unemployment rate. Which I admit is dropping because benefits are running out for people. So save the bull**** propaganda sermons.

And if you need the President, who has no constitutional authority to do anything about this, or tell you what to do we have bigger problems. Now, please explain this...



So cut the sanctimonious crap.

 

[Kenny]

Frankly, that is more lack of education than real education.

I'd note that most churches are very anti-freedom of speech for those who disagree with the church.

But that is the "education" that is for today.

And you can always start your own church

 

[Polymath257]

Wrong, save the sermon. NJ did what was ordered in March and April and flattened the curve by May. We were told by Horsetooth that if this happened the restrictions would be eased. This happened, but the ******* tightened the restrictions and has been extending the “health crisis” month by month by month. We were so cooperative we have an average 14-16% unemployment rate. Which I admit is dropping because benefits are running out for people. So save the bull**** propaganda sermons.

And the simple fact that *others* did not lack down is why this was required. Unfortunately. We should have had a *coordinated*, nationwide lockdown. Instead we got tentative measures some places, too harsh of measures other places, and NOTHING worked.

And if you need the President, who has no constitutional authority to do anything about this, or tell you what to do we have bigger problems.

Yes, the President has authority to do exactly this. Other presidents have, successfully. This one failed.

Now, please explain this...

View attachment 45361

So cut the sanctimonious crap.

And if we had done some basic measures back in January, Fauci would likely have been right. Two months later, though, that opportunity had passed.

 

[Kenny]

Did Louis Phillipe open churches? Yes.

Did Nazi Germany open churches? Yes.

Did Pinochet open churches? Yes.

Did Franco open churches? Yes.

Some dictators fight churches. Others use them to support their power. In neither case, do churches actually help prevent dictatorship.

???

Nazi Germany - "In this year, Hitler and the Catholic Church signed an agreement that he would not interfere with the Catholic Church while the Church would not comment on politics. However, this only lasted until 1937, when Hitler started a concerted attack on the Catholic Church arresting priests etc."

https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi-germany/the-church-in-nazi-germany/

You will have to give better support than just "saying".

Did Castro close churches? Yes. Did China close churches? still does Did Russia close churches? Yes.

I would suppose that if a dictator opened state-sponsored churches... you could say "they opened churches" -- but that would be twisting the truth.

 

[Polymath257]

But that is the "education" that is for today.

And you can always start your own church

And why? Because too many places are too hesitant to *really* teach kids how to think. It goes against too many religious principles and nationalistic goals.

We have been battling to get good science taught in the schools for decades. But there are too few teachers who are able to do it, and too many parents who complain when little Johnny actually has to think. And, when it comes to some things like evolution, there are even state legislatures that try to step into the act.

We also fail to teach basic civics. How many people (even elected representatives) don't know the three branches of government nor can name their Senators or Representatives? How many people can't name a Supreme Court Justice? How many people complain about socialism, but if it means their farm subsidy or disability check doesn't arrive, they wail and moan?

Let's face it. We get the education we pay for. And we aren't paying for a good one. Never have (except briefly after Sputnik).

 

[Polymath257]

???

Nazi Germany - "In this year, Hitler and the Catholic Church signed an agreement that he would not interfere with the Catholic Church while the Church would not comment on politics. However, this only lasted until 1937, when Hitler started a concerted attack on the Catholic Church arresting priests etc."

https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi-germany/the-church-in-nazi-germany/

You will have to give better support than just "saying".

Did Castro close churches? Yes. Did China close churches? still does Did Russia close churches? Yes.

I would suppose that if a dictator opened state-sponsored churches... you could say "they opened churches" -- but that would be twisting the truth.

And Franco? And Pinochet?

Religion is *one* of the ways that dictators control the masses.

 

[Jainarayan]

And the simple fact that *others* did not lack down is why this was required. Unfortunately. We should have had a *coordinated*, nationwide lockdown. Instead we got tentative measures some places, too harsh of measures other places, and NOTHING worked.


Yes, the President has authority to do exactly this. Other presidents have, successfully. This one failed.



And if we had done some basic measures back in January, Fauci would likely have been right. Two months later, though, that opportunity had passed.

Federalism? Tenth Amendment? Stop, please just stop. An answer for everything, a backstroke for all occasions.