John Oliver Rakes Televangelists over the Coals

[Shadow Wolf]

But atheism does not even have a position on the origin of life, the atheistic view is to disbelieve in God - nothing to do with science.

I said nothing of the origin of life.I was referring to those atheists who use contemporary science as a means to justify their atheism. Of course the two are not mutually exclusive, but nevertheless their are many atheists who uphold science - an ultimately limited view - as a means of justifying why they are atheist.
Whether or not you realize it, or just want to admit it, there is no short supply of atheists who view themselves as "better" because they are atheists, those who ridicule those who aren't atheists, and those who put so much faith into their ultimately limited and flawed views (based on science) of the world that I do not see how the term "fundamentalism" can be applied to them.

 

[Thana]

What is the issue? I gave an honest response to your comment. What attack?

You've really got playing the victim down pat, don't you? I kind of admire your skill tbh.

Well if you won't acknowledge fault then I guess I 'lose'
Good thing that I'm okay with losing a debate that is essentially a 'He said, she said' with a stranger over the internet.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The USSR was statism, the worship of the state.

Worship of the state? Nazi Germany, maybe, but USSR was an atheist state. If you want to see worship of the state, look at America, where people are convinced that the USA is God's country. Maybe if you look solely at the violent and paranoid Stalin, maybe by a stretch, but USSR definitely did not have this "worship of the state."
By those standards, you may as well say that those of ancient Athens worshiped the state, but clearly they did not.

 

[Bunyip]

I said nothing of the origin of life.I was referring to those atheists who use contemporary science as a means to justify their atheism.

What? Why on earth would anyone want to do that? Atheism is justified by the absence of evidence for gods. It needs no further justification.

Of course the two are not mutually exclusive, but nevertheless their are many atheists who uphold science - an ultimately limited view - as a means of justifying why they are atheist.

I really don't know why, or who - or how that is relevant. But oerhaps an example would help?

Whether or not you realize it, or just want to admit it, there is no short supply of atheists who view themselves as "better" because they are atheists, those who ridicule those who aren't atheists, and those who put so much faith into their ultimately limited and flawed views (based on science) of the world that I do not see how the term "fundamentalism" can be applied to them.

Atheism demands no faith, and plenty of believers have a sense of superiority also - so how is that relevant?
Fundamentalism refers to literal interpretations of scripture, not forms of bad behaviour.

 

[Bunyip]

Worship of the state? Nazi Germany, maybe, but USSR was an atheist state. If you want to see worship of the state, look at America, where people are convinced that the USA is God's country. Maybe if you look solely at the violent and paranoid Stalin, maybe by a stretch, but USSR definitely did not have this "worship of the state."
By those standards, you may as well say that those of ancient Athens worshiped the state, but clearly they did not.

What? The NAZI were a formally Christian organisation, Germany was a Christian state.
Stalin did indeed initiate a form of statism, he was raised a Christian, educated in a seminary, trained as a priest and later established the Russian Orthodox Church. I think you are confusing 'communism' with 'militant atheism'. The ancient Athenians were polythiests I thought.

 

[Bunyip]

You've really got playing the victim down pat, don't you? I kind of admire your skill tbh.

Well if you won't acknowledge fault then I guess I 'lose'
Good thing that I'm okay with losing a debate that is essentially a 'He said, she said' with a stranger over the internet.

Victim over what? You seem pretty paranoid - let's leave it there.

 

[Bunyip]

Shadow Wolf
No offence meant, but this thread was about John Oliver's attack on TV evangelists. You and Thana have thrown a great many criticisms of atheism in there - but atheism is not actually the topic. Oliver is not speaking as a representative of atheism.
How do you feel about Oliver's comments on TV evangelists.

 

[LuisDantas]

I mentioned Militant Atheism, off-hand and as an example of what I thought the negative effects of John's segment could be on extremists, Theist and Atheist alike.

If you want to talk about militant atheism, it would be wise to check first to see if those comparisons stand.

Unavoidably, you would then see that they do not.

 

[Thana]

If you want to talk about militant atheism, it would be wise to check first to see if those comparisons stand.

Unavoidably, you would then see that they do not.

Comparisons of what?

Militant and Atheism?

 

[Bunyip]

Personally I think it is well overdue to criticise TV evangelists. Peter Popoff was caught faking his messages from God, and yet no charges were laid. There is a great deal of crime being perpetrated by the big TV evangelists and a little light thrown onto them would be a good thing.

Massive international corporations generating vast profits should not be immune from either tax or the law.

 

[Shad]

I love John Oliver and he definitely raised some good points, But I also think the way he went about it probably ostracized him from the people who are actually taken advantage by the Televangelists.

I think if anything his segment about it just made things worse for everyone, making fundie Atheists more derisive and giving them more ammo and fundie Christians more stubborn and less likely to see any other perspective because he just totally mocked their values.

He mocked their gullibility that they think throwing money at some random person on TV will make their debt go away because well God... If one holds a belief that leads them to being this gullible it should be mocked. Maybe it will make people consider their actions next time. One can only take advantage of people when there is something to take advantage of. In this case their debt and their pride that God is not only going to wipe their debt clean but rob those that lend the money of what they are owed. They want God to rob other people of money since they can not manage their own fiances. It is a prime example of selflessness and delusional thinking

 

[Thana]

He mocked their gullibility that they think throwing money at some random person on TV will make their debt go away because well God... If one holds a belief that leads them to being this gullible it should be mocked. Maybe it will make people consider their actions next time.

Well, I mean he kinda mocked faith and the belief that God can heal aswell.
I get he was just emulating televangelists and exaggerating for comical purposes. Still though.. Even I was a little uncomfortable with his mockery and I'm generally casual about that stuff.

 

[Shad]

Well, I mean he kinda mocked faith and the belief that God can heal aswell.

Healing which has failed repeatedly when put to the test. In fact such beliefs when enacted by parents rather then seeking medical help has harmed or caused the death of children

I get he was just emulating televangelists and exaggerating for comical purposes. Still though.. Even I was a little uncomfortable with his mockery and I'm generally casual about that stuff.

He is a comedy so of course he is going to do so. It is his job after all.

I assume your comfort level with this is because he hit close to home. Maybe you will take the hint and think about some of your beliefs. How these can be abused or lead to abuse. This does not mean you have to abandon your faith. Think about it this way. My family are Christians but do not believe that anyone can heal just because they make claims with no evidence. They are not stupid nor gullible. Their view of healing is that God empowers people to heal. Those people become doctors, nurses, therapists, etc. Medicine is part of the natural word thus God provides healing indirectly via nature and direct healing within the doctors. They actually view people that try to pray away all their issues as Christians that think God is their lap dog, are selfish and delusional. They take no responsibility for their own actions. The ignore modern knowledge since they were never taught to think and act for themselves.

 

[Thana]

Healing which has failed repeatedly when put to the test. In fact such beliefs when enacted by parents rather then seeking medical help has harmed or caused the death of children
He is a comedy so of course he is going to do so. It is his job after all.

I assume your comfort level with this is because he hit close to home. Maybe you will take the hint and think about some of your beliefs. How these can be abused or lead to abuse. This does not mean you have to abandon your faith. Think about it this way. My family are Christians but do not believe that anyone can heal just because they make claims with no evidence. They are not stupid nor gullible. Their view of healing is that God empowers people to heal. Those people become doctors, nurses, therapists, etc. Medicine is part of the natural word thus God provides healing indirectly via nature and direct healing within the doctors. They actually view people that try to pray away all their issues as Christians that think God is their lap dog, are selfish and delusional. They take no responsibility for their own actions. The ignore modern knowledge since they were never taught to think and act for themselves.

I'm not defending televangelism, I'm totally and completely against evangelism itself let alone what those spin doctors on TV preach.

It's not that it hit close to home, It's that it kind of veered from attacking televangelism at certain points and went a little towards attacking religious belief.

 

[Shad]

I'm not defending televangelism, I'm totally and completely against evangelism itself let alone what those spin doctors on TV preach.

It's not that it hit close to home, It's that it kind of veered from attacking televangelism at certain points and went a little towards attacking religious belief.

Yes a belief that makes one not only gullible but selfish. People's beliefs do not need to be respected especially if irrational.

 

[jojom]

I'm not defending televangelism, I'm totally and completely against evangelism itself let alone what those spin doctors on TV preach.

It's not that it hit close to home, It's that it kind of veered from attacking televangelism at certain points and went a little towards attacking religious belief.

I'm curious. What did you see as attacking religious belief that wasn't in the context of asking for money in some form or another?


.

 

[Thana]

Yes a belief that makes one not only gullible but selfish. People's beliefs do not need to be respected especially if irrational.

Strong Atheism is a belief in itself, one that I find hard to distinguish between any other belief be it Deistic or Theistic in nature, In other words no more rational or irrational.
But I tend to avoid saying that as it's practically waving a red flag at a bull.

 

[Shad]

Strong Atheism is a belief in itself, one that I find hard to distinguish between any other belief be it Deistic or Theistic in nature, In other words no more rational or irrational.
But I tend to avoid saying that as it's practically waving a red flag at a bull.

That is your choice. However the key difference is I have support for saying it is irrational, the lack of evidence for such healing, so I have justification while you have an opinion.

 

[Thana]

I'm curious. What did you see as attacking religious belief that wasn't in the context of asking for money in some form or another?

Well he mocked the belief of illness as demonic, As being able to be healed by God (And not just in the context of giving money to get it healed by God) I mean that whole 'pretend to be a church' curled my stomach, Although I understand he did it in order to get a point across about the laws regarding Churches in America but that's not what bothered me. I just feel he blurred the lines between televangelism and religious beliefs.

 

[Thana]

That is your choice. However the key difference is I have support for saying it is irrational, the lack of evidence for such healing, so I have justification while you have an opinion.

There are plenty of such healings, The only difference is one person calls it a miracle and the other a coincidence.
You have nothing more than I have, which as you said, is opinion. There is no proof either which way, while there's plenty of inconclusive evidence.