John Oliver Rakes Televangelists over the Coals

[jojom]

Well he mocked the belief of illness as demonic, As being able to be healed by God (And not just in the context of giving money to get it healed by God)

Because I didn't recall there being any mention of mocking the belief of illness as demonic I took a second look at the video. There isn't any. His only comments about illness were in regard to sending in money to be cured (by Kenneth Copland) and buying "numerous products" about healing through faith (by Gloria Copland, who also puts down medical procedures to deal with cancer, and invites the viewer to a better alternative: her husband's TV program that asks for money).

I mean that whole 'pretend to be a church' curled my stomach, Although I understand he did it in order to get a point across about the laws regarding Churches in America but that's not what bothered me.

But it clearly wasn't about churches, but establishing an on air ministry that can ask for money.

I just feel he blurred the lines between televangelism and religious beliefs.

And I still fail to see this at all. The only places where I saw religious belief arise were in direct connection to raking in more money. At the risk of upsetting your stomach again, I suggest you give it another look.


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[Thana]

Because I didn't recall there being any mention of mocking the belief of illness as demonic I took a second look at the video. There isn't any. His only comments about illness were in regard to sending in money to be cured (by Kenneth Copland) and buying "numerous products" about healing through faith (by Gloria Copland, who also puts down medical procedures to deal with cancer, and invites the viewer to a better alternative: her husband's TV program that asks for money).

But it clearly wasn't about churches, but establishing an on air ministry that can ask for money.

And I still fail to see this at all. The only places where I saw religious belief arise were in direct connection to raking in more money. At the risk of upsetting your stomach again, I suggest you give it another look.


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You're right, It wasn't him that said it but the chick actor in the church segment. Still I imagine he had a hand in the script but I should probably rephrase, I didn't have a problem with John Oliver just certain aspects of his message.

 

[Shad]

There are plenty of such healings, The only difference is one person calls it a miracle and the other a coincidence.
You have nothing more than I have, which as you said, is opinion. There is no proof either which way, while there's plenty of inconclusive evidence.

No, academia calls it pseudoscience and delusional. People with wishful thinking call it real. My view is backed by medical science, your view is back by nothing but wishful thinking and delusion. Absence of studies showing the lack of validity and the failures of faith healing is evidence of it being false and irrational.

 

[Bunyip]

Famous TV evangelist Peter Popoff, built a ministry pretending to receive messages from God and healing the people he had received messages about. He made many millions and was spectacularly popular.
After a long investigation James Randi exposed Popoff as a fraud - he recorded Popoff's wife backstage transmitting 'God's messages' directly to Popoff's earpiece.

Funny thing about evangelists is that after the exposure and a few months to settle down - Popoff's business actually increased. He abandoned the pretence of getting people's names and addresses from God, but continued to claim to heal people.

That he was exposed as a fraud, literally caught in the act did not seem to bother his congregation at all. That he had proven himself a fraud did not stop his followers from believing in him.

I think what Oliver is reacting to is just that sort of blind obedience to a con-man.

 

[Thana]

No, academia calls it pseudoscience and delusional. People with wishful thinking call it real. My view is backed by medical science, your view is back by nothing but wishful thinking and delusion. Absence of studies showing the lack of validity and the failures of faith healing is evidence of it being false and irrational.

Everyone has evidence, People who believe in aliens have evidence for the existence of aliens.

Evidence isn't proof, And calling people's beliefs names isn't proof either, but it is childish.

 

[Bunyip]

Everyone has evidence, People who believe in aliens have evidence for the existence of aliens.

Evidence isn't proof, And calling people's beliefs names isn't proof either, but it is childish.

Names like 'fundi atheists' you mean? At least you now realise it was childish.

 

[Thana]

Names like 'fundi atheists' you mean? At least you now realise it was childish.

Oh for goodness sake, Are you really going to sit there and claim that there is no such thing as an extremist Atheist who takes their Atheism and most likely Anti-Theism to what one could say was an extreme?

And I corrected fundie Atheist to Militant Atheist which is commonly used and isn't pejorative.

 

[Shad]

Everyone has evidence, People who believe in aliens have evidence for the existence of aliens.

Objective evidence is what matters. Subjective evidence is unreliable.

Evidence isn't proof, And calling people's beliefs names isn't proof either, but it is childish.

Calling beliefs that have no objective evidence, has been found to be scams and frauds along with causing the death of a number of children is not childish. Its calling a delusion what it is. Harmful and irrational. Sorry that your beliefs happens to fail under pseudoscience. Maybe you should do something about it. You know... like providing evidence. If it is not a medical study do not bother linking it.

 

[Bunyip]

Oh for goodness sake, Are you really going to sit there and claim that there is no such thing as an extremist Atheist who takes their Atheism and most likely Anti-Theism to what one could say was an extreme?

What have atheists got to do with what Oliver said? A: Nothing. And no I do not believe that you can take a belief you do not have to extremes.

And I corrected fundie Atheist to Militant Atheist which is commonly used and isn't pejorative.

It still makes your complaining about everyone else being insulting come across as hypocritical. Sure, you have 'corrected', now try not accusing others of what you were doing yourself.

This thread is about John Oliver's comments on TV evangelists, it has nothing to do with atheism, fundy, militant, extremist or otherwise.

 

[Shad]

Oh for goodness sake, Are you really going to sit there and claim that there is no such thing as an extremist Atheist who takes their Atheism and most likely Anti-Theism to what one could say was an extreme?

And I corrected fundie Atheist to Militant Atheist which is commonly used and isn't pejorative.

So pointing out that the medical and scientific communities considered its pseudoscience and dangerous is being militant? Hilarious. Ergo both communities are militant atheists... Or perhaps your beliefs are unfounded.

 

[Thana]

What have atheists got to do with what Oliver said? A: Nothing. And no I do not believe that you can take a belief you do not have to extremes.
It still makes your complaining about everyone else being insulting come across as hypocritical. Sure, you have 'corrected', now try not accusing others of what you were doing yourself.

This thread is about John Oliver's comments on TV evangelists, it has nothing to do with atheism, fundy, militant, extremist or otherwise.

I know it doesn't have anything to do with Atheists, But you keep bringing it up and going off on tangents. What's a girl to do but defend herself and remind you, for the final time, that my Atheist remark was off-hand and kind of irrelevant to my central point. Which doesn't seem to matter now because you keep accusing me of.. what is it now.. hypocrisy? Well that's fresh.

 

[Thana]

Objective evidence is what matters. Subjective evidence is unreliable.
Calling beliefs that have no objective evidence, has been found to be scams and frauds along with causing the death of a number of children is not childish. Its calling a delusion what it is. Harmful and irrational. Sorry that your beliefs happens to fail under pseudoscience. Maybe you should do something about it. You know... like providing evidence. If it is not a medical study do not bother linking it.

My beliefs are just that, beliefs. I've got no proof of them and need none. I have evidence, but like I said we all do. And I'm not sure what your definition of objective evidence is.

You on the other hand are making some pretty bold claims, implying yours are factual and mine are delusional. The burden of proof seems to be on you, so by all means, prove it. Make sure it's empirical and irrefutable, of course.

Or just admit you're in the same boat with me and stop blustering..... Either way.

 

[Shad]

My beliefs are just that, beliefs. I've got no proof of them and need none. I have evidence, but like I said we all do. And I'm not sure what your definition of objective evidence is.

Evidence which does not depend on your or others subjective experience. You know the evidence found in medical studies showing faith healing works and the absences of it.

You on the other hand are making some pretty bold claims, implying yours are factual and mine are delusional. The burden of proof seems to be on you, so by all means, prove it. Make sure it's empirical and irrefutable, of course.

No I am repeating statements made by both the scientific and medical communities. they are making well researched points that happen to places faith healing as irrational and pseudoscience.

Or just admit you're in the same boat with me and stop blustering..... Either way.

Not the same boat since I have objective evidence backing my view.

 

[Bunyip]

There are plenty of such healings, The only difference is one person calls it a miracle and the other a coincidence.
You have nothing more than I have, which as you said, is opinion. There is no proof either which way, while there's plenty of inconclusive evidence.

Can you give an example of any person known to be healed by a TV evangelist? Any person whose disease was cured?

 

[Thana]

Evidence which does not depend on your or others subjective experience. You know the evidence found in medical studies showing faith healing works and the absences of it.

No I am repeating statements made by both the scientific and medical communities. they are making well researched points that happen to places faith healing as irrational and pseudoscience.

Not the same boat since I have objective evidence backing my view.

I don't care about what they say, I only care about what they can prove. Their opinions are as valid as anyone else's when it comes to spiritual/philosophical/religious matters.

And did I not say that the only difference in those cases would be that one calls it a miracle and the other a coincidence?

 

[Thana]

Can you give an example of any person known to be healed by a TV evangelist? Any person whose disease was cured?

No, but then I haven't ever remotely looked into it and I don't believe Televangelists do actually heal people anyway.

 

[Shad]

I don't care about what they say, I only care about what they can prove. Their opinions are as valid as anyone else's when it comes to spiritual/philosophical/religious matters.

The lack of evidence for faith healing is evidence for their statement. It is not an opinion, it is a fact

And did I not say that the only difference in those cases would be that one calls it a miracle and the other a coincidence?

Yes you did however neither of my sources view faith healing in this way. It is a failure. Coincidence is assigned when people think faith healing works.

 

[Shad]

Can you give an example of any person known to be healed by a TV evangelist? Any person whose disease was cured?

Better to ask for a study. Far too many people just link whatever random website fits their confirmation bias. Studies provide facts, methodology and proper correlation.

 

[Bunyip]

No, but then I haven't ever remotely looked into it and I don't believe Televangelists do actually heal people anyway.

Hang on! You just said that there were plenty of these healings - now you say you don't believe they can heal people? Then how is it insulting to challenge the TV evangelists claims?

 

[Thana]

The lack of evidence for faith healing is evidence for their statement. It is not an opinion, it is a fact
Yes you did however neither of my sources view faith healing in this way. It is a failure. Coincidence is assigned when people think faith healing works.

Another baseless claim.
I've asked you for proof twice now.....