Jordan Peterson and Bill Maher...

[SkepticThinker]

???? makes no sense

What do you need clarification on?

 

[Kenny]

Yeah, they're trying to do that but you apparently don't approve of the care being provided to these people.

This sounds like I don't approve of care... I do approve of appropriate care -

Based on your extensive education and studies in medicine and psychiatry, right? Oh, it's not.

???? Because I have a degree in one area and 3 years in another means I don't have a brain and can't think? Do you only have viewpoints on the area that you graduated in? Is your reading capacity not up to par if it isn't in the area that you graduated in? As a parent, do we check out our thinking process?

 

[SkepticThinker]

This sounds like I don't approve of care... I do approve of appropriate care -

The appropriate care in many cases in gender-affirming care. You don't seem to "approve" of that. Though why anyone requires your approval, you've yet to explain.

???? Because I have a degree in one area and 3 years in another means I don't have a brain and can't think? Do you only have viewpoints on the area that you graduated in? Is your reading capacity not up to par if it isn't in the area that you graduated in? As a parent, do we check out our thinking process?

Do you have a degree in anything relevant to the discussion? I mean, I have a degree in psychology but it doesn't mean I know anything about auto mechanics. I'm ignorant on the subject of auto mechanics. And so I generally refrain from telling other people how to repair their automobiles, because I don't know anything about it and wouldn't presume to know more than people who study auto mechanics for a living.

I've asked you several times to explain how or why you're qualified in any way at all to make other peoples' medical decisions for themselves and their children. You still haven't answered, though you kinda did right here. You aren't qualified. Heck, you don't even make an effort to learn new things on the subject or inquire as to how parents with transgender kids feel about it.

And yet you seem to think your opinion on the subject are on par with the opinions of those in the medical/psychiatric community. Actually, even higher because you want to tell other people and their children what they should be doing and what is or is not appropriate for each individual.

Then you say, oh medical professionals should do what's needed to prevent suicidal ideation. Well, they are, and you don't approve of the course of action they've chosen to take with their patients. That's what that last post was about.

 

[Kenny]

The appropriate care in many cases in gender-affirming care. You don't seem to "approve" of that. Though why anyone requires your approval, you've yet to explain.

Again... don't understand your line of thinking. You're posturing by saying "someone requires my approval"... can you please quote me where I have said they require my approval? Grandstanding?

Is this a debate forum? Or is this a "I must bow to your dictating what I must do and believe?"

You are implying, that no one can vote on any issue because the general populace aren't able to read and understand.

Do you have a degree in anything relevant to the discussion? I mean, I have a degree in psychology but it doesn't mean I know anything about auto mechanics. I'm ignorant on the subject of auto mechanics. And so I generally refrain from telling other people how to repair their automobiles, because I don't know anything about it and wouldn't presume to know more than people who study auto mechanics for a living.

Hmmm... I'm not a mechanic, but I was able to learn how to do brakes, change a flywheel, replace a radiator and other things...

I think I can have an viewpoint if the mechanic says to me "I know I'm replacing your tires but you need new brakes" and I look at the brakes that still have padding and the brakes are working fine.

(I'm glad you are a psychologist... trust you are helping people)

Do you think doctors never abuse the system?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Again... don't understand your line of thinking. You're posturing by saying "someone requires my approval"... can you please quote me where I have said they require my approval? Grandstanding?

That's the question I'm asking you about. Good grief.

Is this a debate forum? Or is this a "I must bow to your dictating what I must do and believe?"

You are implying, that no one can vote on any issue because the general populace aren't able to read and understand.

No, I'm not. I'm flat out saying YOU are unqualified to determine other peoples' medical decisions for them. I've asked you countless times if and why you think your opinion on other peoples' medical decisions should have any bearing, especially when that opinion appears to be formed from misinformation. I'm still asking the question, several posts later.

Hmmm... I'm not a mechanic, but I was able to learn how to do brakes, change a flywheel, replace a radiator and other things...

I think I can have an viewpoint if the mechanic says to me "I know I'm replacing your tires but you need new brakes" and I look at the brakes that still have padding and the brakes are working fine.

(I'm glad you are a psychologist... trust you are helping people)

Do you think doctors never abuse the system?

*Sigh*

You cut out the relevant part, where I explained what I'm talking about:

I've asked you several times to explain how or why you're qualified in any way at all to make other peoples' medical decisions for themselves and their children. You still haven't answered, though you kinda did right here. You aren't qualified. Heck, you don't even make an effort to learn new things on the subject or inquire as to how parents with transgender kids feel about it.

And yet you seem to think your opinion on the subject are on par with the opinions of those in the medical/psychiatric community. Actually, even higher because you want to tell other people and their children what they should be doing and what is or is not appropriate for each individual.

Then you say, oh medical professionals should do what's needed to prevent suicidal ideation. Well, they are, and you don't approve of the course of action they've chosen to take with their patients. That's what that last post was about.

 

[Kenny]

That's the question I'm asking you about. Good grief.

It isn't a good question - self-evident

No, I'm not. I'm flat out saying YOU are unqualified to determine other peoples' medical decisions for them. I've asked you countless times if and why you think your opinion on other peoples' medical decisions should have any bearing, especially when that opinion appears to be formed from misinformation. I'm still asking the question, several posts later.

If I have the right to vote to establish criteria for abuse - then yes. If a person is 18 and understands what they are doing to their body.... all the power to you -- not an issue

*Sigh*

You cut out the relevant part, where I explained what I'm talking about:

I've asked you several times to explain how or why you're qualified in any way at all to make other peoples' medical decisions for themselves and their children. You still haven't answered, though you kinda did right here. You aren't qualified. Heck, you don't even make an effort to learn new things on the subject or inquire as to how parents with transgender kids feel about it.

And yet you seem to think your opinion on the subject are on par with the opinions of those in the medical/psychiatric community. Actually, even higher because you want to tell other people and their children what they should be doing and what is or is not appropriate for each individual.

Then you say, oh medical professionals should do what's needed to prevent suicidal ideation. Well, they are, and you don't approve of the course of action they've chosen to take with their patients. That's what that last post was about.

I've explained that. You are basically saying that no one can have an opportunity to vote on ANYTHING because nobody is qualified. The medical/psychiatric individual positions vary from one end to other.

The continuing and mounting complaints coming from those who transitioned and now regret it is evidence enough..

I see no logic in your position

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hmmmm... Saul, who became Paul, murdered which is also in the Bible. God basically said, "Not a problem, I'm bigger than that". All of the above is covered by the death on the cross, burial and resurrection of Jesus in light of my signature.

You are in the wrong "Last Will and Testament". If you have two Last Will and Testaments, it is the last one that is in force -- not to mention you are talking about a Jewish covenant given to Moses vs the covenant given to Abraham.

In either case - you are reading the wrong words because they are not in force if I understand what you are saying.

So you ignore what your god said it seems. Those are his rules. Yes, Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone and did save the woman's life with his words. But Jesus also said he didn't come to change the Laws or do away with the Prophets. Amd as far as Jesus goes, I've blasphemed the Holy Spirit and Jesus said that one is unforgiveable.
But it seems to me you are just making your god a reflection of yourself. Say one thing and insist you are one way but then say something totally different that reveals you are not as you say and strongly suggests you aren't listening or paying attention. Stuff like this.

And, thus, let's get them psychological help to reduce the suicide rate. I'm not sure that "additional hormones" is the drug of choice to reduce suicidal tendencies.

You've been told dozens and dozens of time that therapy is a routine, regular and required part of a medical transition.

 

[Kenny]

So you ignore what your god said it seems. Those are his rules. Yes, Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone and did save the woman's life with his words. But Jesus also said he didn't come to change the Laws or do away with the Prophets. Amd as far as Jesus goes, I've blasphemed the Holy Spirit and Jesus said that one is unforgiveable.
But it seems to me you are just making your god a reflection of yourself. Say one thing and insist you are one way but then say something totally different that reveals you are not as you say and strongly suggests you aren't listening or paying attention. Stuff like this.

I gave my life at 28 and have ministered for 41 years. I think I know what I am talking about.

So you have given two contrary points.

1) He who has no sin cast the first stone. And the only person who had the right to cast the first stone was Jesus. His words were, "Neither do I condemn you..."
2) The law of the Moses to the Jewish people.

Contradictory at first sight but it isn't. The first is the law of grace and life that superseded the second, the law of sin and death. The first goes into effect and conquers the second when one receives the gift of life. (Not a work release program and not a payment - a gift)

Why do you think you blasphemed the Holy Spirit? What do you think it is?

 

[SkepticThinker]

It isn't a good question - self-evident

Then why couldn't you just answer it?

If I have the right to vote to establish criteria for abuse - then yes.

We're not talking about the right to vote. We're talking about your "right" to interfere in other peoples' medical decisions that affect their lives and not yours.

Why on earth would you vote to have any say over other peoples' medical decisions?

If a person is 18 and understands what they are doing to their body.... all the power to you -- not an issue

Now you're arguing that we can't perform any medical procedures on any children, until they're 18?

I've explained that. You are basically saying that no one can have an opportunity to vote on ANYTHING because nobody is qualified.

This is the very first time anyone has brought up the word "vote." And that was you. And this seems very much like a deflection from the discussion.

So, you think we should all vote on what medical procedures can or cannot be performed on other people? Based on what? Our ignorance of medicine and their medical condition? That's absurd.

Tell ya what Kenny. Next time you have a doctor's visit coming up, gimme a call, and I'll come with you, listen to everything your doctor has to say, and then me and my next-door-neighbor will vote on whether or not you receive the treatment you need/want. Sound good?

The medical/psychiatric individual positions vary from one end to other.

Irrelevant. The consensus of the evidence is what we need to look at. The medical guidelines put together by professionals in various medical/psychiatric associations are what we need to look at. They didn't just make those up out of nowhere, you know.

Individual medical opinions may vary by situation, as they should. But again, that's between the child, the parents and the doctor. I don't know why you think you should be injecting yourself and your uninformed opinion into anyone else's life. What makes you qualified to do so? Surely you don't imagine you're anywhere near as informed as medical professionals on the matter.

The continuing and mounting complaints coming from those who transitioned and now regret it is evidence enough..

You mean the ones that are hyped up on extreme right-wing, anti-trans media?

I see no logic in your position

You see no logic in my questioning your ability to make other peoples' medical decisions for them, based on your limited and skewed view of the situation? Of course you don't.

 

[Kenny]

Then why couldn't you just answer it?

We're not talking about the right to vote. We're talking about your "right" to interfere in other peoples' medical decisions that affect their lives and not yours.

Why on earth would you vote to have any say over other peoples' medical decisions?

Now you're arguing that we can't perform any medical procedures on any children, until they're 18?

This is the very first time anyone has brought up the word "vote." And that was you. And this seems very much like a deflection from the discussion.

So, you think we should all vote on what medical procedures can or cannot be performed on other people? Based on what? Our ignorance of medicine and their medical condition? That's absurd.

Tell ya what Kenny. Next time you have a doctor's visit coming up, gimme a call, and I'll come with you, listen to everything your doctor has to say, and then me and my next-door-neighbor will vote on whether or not you receive the treatment you need/want. Sound good?

Irrelevant. The consensus of the evidence is what we need to look at. The medical guidelines put together by professionals in various medical/psychiatric associations are what we need to look at. They didn't just make those up out of nowhere, you know.

Individual medical opinions may vary by situation, as they should. But again, that's between the child, the parents and the doctor. I don't know why you think you should be injecting yourself and your uninformed opinion into anyone else's life. What makes you qualified to do so? Surely you don't imagine you're anywhere near as informed as medical professionals on the matter.

You mean the ones that are hyped up on extreme right-wing, anti-trans media?

You see no logic in my questioning your ability to make other peoples' medical decisions for them, based on your limited and skewed view of the situation? Of course you don't.

At some point with exaggerations, misapplications, ignoring previous comments et al... one comes to the place where one says "I'm wasting time on this conversation".

 

[SkepticThinker]

At some point with exaggerations, misapplications, ignoring previous comments et al...

Please don't accuse me of things you can't back up, in your attempt to save face.

one comes to the place where one says "I'm wasting time on this conversation".

Indeed. When one person refuses to respond to questions and actually engage in the conversation and the points being made, this is where we end up. Just like every conversation I've ever had with you on these forums.

Take care.

 

[Kenny]

Please don't accuse me of things you can't back up, in your attempt to save face.


Indeed. When one person refuses to respond to questions and actually engage in the conversation and the points being made, this is where we end up. Just like every conversation I've ever had with you on these forums.

Take care.

I guess we both have different viewpoints, both in how we debate as well as how we deal with the mutilation of youth and children.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I guess we both have different viewpoints, both in how we debate as well as how we deal with the mutilation of youth and children.

Youth and children are not being mutilated. And honestly, your use of the word is extremely troubling to me given the conversation we've just had. You know full well that "gender affirming care" is not about mutilation. You haven't taken in anything at all. You're going to stick with your right-wing caricatures, as inaccurate and dishonest as they are. And based upon those inaccuracies, for some reason, you think you have the right to inject yourself into other peoples' medical decisions. Why? Who knows. You won't say. You won't even answer the question.

I think it's rather obvious why you totally ignored my example and my question relating to it about my neighbour and I voting on the medical treatment we think you should receive. It sounds rather absurd, doesn't it?

Let me know when you can finally bring yourself to learn something, and watch those videos I've provided you with umpteen times of the (very conservative) parents of trans kids explaining how their depressed children came alive when they finally acknowledged and supported what their children were telling them about themselves. The real people harming the "youth and children" here, are those who refuse to listen and learn. And instead assume they know more than the people whose lives these things actually impact AND the medical community as a whole.

 

[Secret Chief]

mutilation

A deeply troubling use of this word.

 

[metis]

... as how we deal with the mutilation of youth and children.

It's a shame that you're not listening to them and attempting to dominate over them, their parents, and their doctors.

 

[Kenny]

It's a shame that you're not listening to them and attempting to dominate over them, their parents, and their doctors.

I think that after listening to detransitioners, people should take a pause, listen and review.

https://segm.org/sites/default/files/Karolinska%20_Policy_Statement_English.pdf

Executive Decisions

• § In light of the above, and based on the precautionary principle, which should always be applied, it has been decided that hormonal treatments (i.e., puberty blocking and cross-sex hormones) will not be initiated in gender dysphoric patients under the age of 16.
• § For patients between ages 16 and 18, it has been decided that treatment may only occur within the clinical trial settings approved by the EPM (Ethical Review Agency/Swedish Institutional Review Board). The patient must receive comprehensive information about potential risks of the treatment, and a careful assessment of the patient’s maturity level must be conducted to determine if the patient is capable of evaluating, and consenting to, the treatment.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think that after listening to detransitioners, people should take a pause, listen and review.

You don't even understand why detransitioning is not synonymous with regret, nor are you particularly concernedly the detransitioners and those who regret it are of a minority that is far smaller than most other surgeries that are far more routine.

 

[Kenny]

You don't even understand why detransitioning is not synonymous with regret, nor are you particularly concernedly the detransitioners and those who regret it are of a minority that is far smaller than most other surgeries that are far more routine.

way too early to know. Let's give it another 5 years and revisit.

https://segm.org/sites/default/files/Karolinska%20_Policy_Statement_English.pdf

Executive Decisions

• § In light of the above, and based on the precautionary principle, which should always be applied, it has been decided that hormonal treatments (i.e., puberty blocking and cross-sex hormones) will not be initiated in gender dysphoric patients under the age of 16.
• § For patients between ages 16 and 18, it has been decided that treatment may only occur within the clinical trial settings approved by the EPM (Ethical Review Agency/Swedish Institutional Review Board). The patient must receive comprehensive information about potential risks of the treatment, and a careful assessment of the patient’s maturity level must be conducted to determine if the patient is capable of evaluating, and consenting to, the treatment.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

way too early to know. Let's give it another 5 years and revisit.

https://segm.org/sites/default/files/Karolinska%20_Policy_Statement_English.pdf

Executive Decisions

• § In light of the above, and based on the precautionary principle, which should always be applied, it has been decided that hormonal treatments (i.e., puberty blocking and cross-sex hormones) will not be initiated in gender dysphoric patients under the age of 16.
• § For patients between ages 16 and 18, it has been decided that treatment may only occur within the clinical trial settings approved by the EPM (Ethical Review Agency/Swedish Institutional Review Board). The patient must receive comprehensive information about potential risks of the treatment, and a careful assessment of the patient’s maturity level must be conducted to determine if the patient is capable of evaluating, and consenting to, the treatment.

Sounds similar ti the WPATH SOC.
Amd just because you learned of this a few months agi doesn't mean it's "way too early to know."

 

[Kenny]

Sounds similar ti the WPATH SOC.
Amd just because you learned of this a few months agi doesn't mean it's "way too early to know."

Enough there to give it a pause. Sweden isn't the only country that is pulling back.