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Jordan Peterson and Bill Maher...

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Do you know why in English there is not the idiom "to have the tail of straw"?

Because in the US, UK, there is political correctness, so you feel entitled to feel offended.

Here in my country there is no such a right.
Because if I am speaking about undetermined groups, and you feel offended, it means you have the tail of straw.

And having the tail of straw is a big humiliation. ;)
So if someone were to defecate on the Italian flag then set it ablaze, Italians would shrug their shoulders with indifference?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
What would you do if one of the congregants at your church deliberately and repeatedly referred to the men in the congregation as "she," the adults as "kids," or the attendants as "false Christians"? I think we most likely agree that his actions would almost surely cause great offense and perhaps major altercations inside the church. Would you tell him to choose between respecting other congregants and leaving, or would you allow him to keep at it? Would you be in violation of his free speech rights if you asked him to stop referring to fellow congregants as "false Christians" if he wanted to keep attending your church?

Wow... I'm not sure if we are trying to create a scenario to fit a narrative. BUT...

What I am not saying is that we have to create contention on purpose, that we shouldn't try to be civil or irritate someone on purpose (whenever possible). I remember a day I went to a home group where the leader got upset because I came with sandals and was offended. At some point... get offended.

What is real is that thought and speech control is what has gone haywire:


Should thought and speech control be so stringent?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Conservatives are too quick to panic. They have many miserable fears such as fearing transexual identity could be contagious or punishment from God. Trans peeps do need and deserve more consideration.

I see that as a two way street and certainly God isn't going around "punishing people".

But it is a two way street.

 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Years ago, I used to watch his show regularly, but I no longer have HBO.

IMO, when raising children, either extreme should be avoided.
Speech filled and seasoned with grace should always be the modus of operandi
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yep.

Doesn't look like it.

If you like. Failure to understand your messaging is in need of re-evaluation will simply continue the social divisions. Go team, eh?
Very fortunately Galileo and Darwin weren't concerned about marketing and how their messages would be recieved.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
I see that as a two way street and certainly God isn't going around "punishing people".

But it is a two way street.

While it's true that having open dialogue and empathy is essential, the idea that being offended is a two-way street might oversimplify the complexity of the issue, in my opinion. Power dynamics, context, and systemic inequalities can play a significant role in how offense is perceived and felt, for example. Marginalized groups may experience offense differently due to their life experiences and past trauma. Recognizing this, it's important to acknowledge that while individuals have the right to express themselves, the impact of their words on others can't always be equal in just the same way.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
While it's true that having open dialogue and empathy is essential, the idea that being offended is a two-way street might oversimplify the complexity of the issue, in my opinion. Power dynamics, context, and systemic inequalities can play a significant role in how offense is perceived and felt, for example. Marginalized groups may experience offense differently due to their life experiences and past trauma. Recognizing this, it's important to acknowledge that while individuals have the right to express themselves, the impact of their words on others can't always be equal in just the same way.
Yes... it is always more complicated than a simple answer. Even "how offense is perceived" is filled with nuances such as upbringing, hurts, a person's view of him/herself and so many other factors.

But in this life, everyone has to learn to work through offenses. I was charged that I was pastoring just for the money.... when I was earning $300 a week, no vacation, no insurance, no retirement fund and raising a family of 5 or more (depending on who was in my house)... Learning how to deal with offense is a requirement IMV>
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
And yet, is it just as offensive to force someone to say something they don't want to say? Why is offense only a one way street? I can't offend you but your cna offend me?
I agree with Peterson that pronouns shouldn't be compelled. Rather, they should be viewed as proper manners, civility, and decorum employed in debate, which, incidentally, protects our right to free speech.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I see that as a two way street and certainly God isn't going around "punishing people".

But it is a two way street.

A very popular song by Christian singer Carman says in America Again "When it gets the point that people would rather come out of the closet than clean it, it's the sign the judgment of God is gonna fall!" I think he encapsulates a lot of the reasons behind the conservative worry about gays and also transgenders. Its fear that God will be displeased with us on a national level if we do not outlaw things. Its a sloppy approach to scripture sort of quasi-applied to politics. This is perhaps outside of your experience, however I think it is more common than you are aware of. There are some other similar famous quotes also very popular. Many public Christian speakers very popular ones have said similar things to Carman. They've spoken at political rallies, at churches, on TV, radio. I'm sure they frighten homosexuals and transgenders, who are reacting. I think trangenders are reacting to the perception that they will be outlawed, silenced or otherwise dismissed through political actions intended to appease the wrath of God.

But I don't think this video by Peterson and Moyers is even going near to that topic. Its strictly about freedom of speech and its import and the way that universities (in Peterson's opinion) are slipping away from their support for the all important right of speech. They're just focusing on that and on the necessity of dealing with one another in reality from time to time. A lot of the time we can talk about weather rather than speak unpleasantly, but there comes a time to express our minds.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
And yet, is it just as offensive to force someone to say something they don't want to say? Why is offense only a one way street? I can't offend you but your cna offend me?

Actually, there are many things you can already do that may offend a subset of other people, but they're legal and protected. One of them is saying that certain people shouldn't be allowed to marry the person they love because of their sexual orientation or that they worship false gods. You can say that at church, on a TV channel that chooses to host you, or in a public gathering, and you won't be censored in any of those cases.

The difference with pronoun usage is that consistent and deliberate refusal to address a person with a pronoun matching their gender in a professional or private venue is, to many people, just as disrespectful as it would be for someone to intentionally and repeatedly address you or me as "she" even though we're men and fully identify as such. If someone doesn't want to address a coworker or classmate respectfully—whether through usage of appropriate pronouns or otherwise—because they believe they would be "forced" to do so, their only option is either to avoid contact or be disrespectful.

Which workplace or school functions like that? How many of them allow employees or students and teachers to disrespect each other if they don't want to be "forced" to remain respectful? Tensions exist among coworkers in many different situations, and some people can't stand their coworkers or classmates. They're still required to treat them with respect and professionalism in the workplace or at school. Otherwise they risk getting fired or reprimanded, and for good reason. No functioning institution wants discord and strife within its premises just because a subset of the people in it refuse to uphold professionalism and respect toward others.

This is what hit me... here we have two different philosophies of life and yet can find a commonality.

I'm pretty sure almost any two people can find commonalities on at least a few issues. I believe charity is a noble endeavor. I think you do as well, based on previous posts. I believe respecting the elderly and being patient toward them is a positive quality. I suspect you agree. I believe that people should be free to practice their religions even if I don't share their beliefs. I suspect you also agree.

There. I just listed at least three highly consequential issues on which we probably agree, and I didn't need more than a few minutes to do so. I don't think it's rare or difficult to find other commonalities among people with generally diametrically opposed worldviews.

Wow... I'm not sure if we are trying to create a scenario to fit a narrative. BUT...

I created the hypothetical to illustrate my point that many establishments already have a myriad of rules, whether written or not, that guide conduct and interactions within their premises. I don't think that including trans people within the groups that deserve basic respect is radical, unique, or difficult. It's an extension of age-old etiquette to a group who are finally gaining more visibility in some countries that previously sidelined their basic rights and brushed aside their existence.

The more I think about this issue, the more convinced I become that there are basic rights that many cisgender people take for granted and therefore don't relate to having to obtain from scratch, as trans people now have to do in some countries. I don't have to worry about being called "she" even though I fully and unquestionably know I'm a man. I don't have to worry about being unable to complete a difficult and lengthy medical process because my access to it could be revoked or prohibited in the future, hinging on what some medically unqualified politicians think. I don't have to worry about being called slurs or possibly even getting physically assaulted if the wrong people find out that my body doesn't match my identity.

The list goes on, and I'm sure I'd never be able to cover everything. I just think that the least I could do is make things easier when I can, such as by not misgendering someone and shoving in their face that their body doesn't match their gender.

What I am not saying is that we have to create contention on purpose, that we shouldn't try to be civil or irritate someone on purpose (whenever possible). I remember a day I went to a home group where the leader got upset because I came with sandals and was offended. At some point... get offended.

Misgendering someone repeatedly and after being told that it disrespects them seems to me to create contention that could have been avoided with minimal effort. In these discussions, I've seen a lot of talk about how we shouldn't let feelings direct our actions. Does that include not letting the denial or invalidation of a trans person's identity dictate one's approach to them in a professional or educational setting? After all, it seems to me that maintaining respect and professionalism despite personal feelings is a sign of maturity and robust emotional control.

What is real is that thought and speech control is what has gone haywire:


Should thought and speech control be so stringent?

The article you linked details an incident of gross misconduct by a British officer (so neither in the US nor in Canada, the respective countries of Bill Maher and Jordan Peterson), who is being investigated for what she did. It no more reflects on hate speech laws than police misconduct in the US reflects on laws against theft and driving under the influence. Just because a corrupt or unprofessional officer cites a charge pertaining to a specific law while or after acting abusively doesn't mean there's any problem with said law per se.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It's clear there is no law being violated by the teen but rather the cop was being a pig and is the one entirely at fault.
Absolutely! It would seem that because the young teenager said "lesbian" - speech control came into being... hate speech... I think the possibility is that the cop was a lesbian but "got offended". Wouldn't know for sure but that is what speech control does IMV>
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
A very popular song by Christian singer Carman says in America Again "When it gets the point that people would rather come out of the closet than clean it, it's the sign the judgment of God is gonna fall!" I think he encapsulates a lot of the reasons behind the conservative worry about gays and also transgenders. Its fear that God will be displeased with us on a national level if we do not outlaw things.
Not necessarily outlaw them but the social acceptance and permissiveness is what they are speaking. Legally allowing things like gay marriage is just the icing on the cake, but the opposite of that.
But the rest is spot on. They preach about Sodom amd Gomorrah, punishments against the Jews, the Flood, and all the other times the Bible records their god wholesale punishing wickedness, including the first born of Egypt who were innocent in it but the wraith of their god is not to he trifled with.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Absolutely! It would seem that because the young teenager said "lesbian" - speech control came into being... hate speech... I think the possibility is that the cop was a lesbian but "got offended". Wouldn't know for sure but that is what speech control does IMV>
That's not speech control as there is no law or other reason for the pig to have done that. I would even say the autism is irrelevant .It was police abuse and brutality, pure and simple.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you think of the points I raised in post #7? Based on your previous posts, I don't think you'd agree that repeated or deliberate misgendering should be allowed in a professional setting or treated differently from any other conduct that deliberately disrespects others in such a setting, so I'm mainly interested to know your general thoughts on the subject and what you liked the most about the interview.

Mostly, I think people are reading into what they said based on Peterson's comments outside this particular interview. That's fine, and I have no issue with it, just what I'm explicitly not doing.

Deliberate misgendering is a form of bullying to me. So consider it in those lines in terms. I suspect my response to any form of bullying would be a little milder than some peoples, and I think there is a very valid point being made in that protecting people from anything they consider 'offensive' is counter productive and is resulting in less resilient people generally.

I tend to think of this very, very rarely with relation to trans issues, and think about it multiple times per day in relation to parenting.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But I don't think this video by Peterson and Moyers is even going near to that topic. Its strictly about freedom of speech and its import and the way that universities (in Peterson's opinion) are slipping away from their support for the all important right of speech. They're just focusing on that and on the necessity of dealing with one another in reality from time to time. A lot of the time we can talk about weather rather than speak unpleasantly, but there comes a time to express our minds.

Yes... that is the subject matter. And definitely I find uni's stripping away freedom of speech into uniformity of speech.... or else.

A very popular song by Christian singer Carman says in America Again "When it gets the point that people would rather come out of the closet than clean it, it's the sign the judgment of God is gonna fall!" I think he encapsulates a lot of the reasons behind the conservative worry about gays and also transgenders. Its fear that God will be displeased with us on a national level if we do not outlaw things. Its a sloppy approach to scripture sort of quasi-applied to politics. This is perhaps outside of your experience, however I think it is more common than you are aware of. There are some other similar famous quotes also very popular. Many public Christian speakers very popular ones have said similar things to Carman. They've spoken at political rallies, at churches, on TV, radio. I'm sure they frighten homosexuals and transgenders, who are reacting. I think trangenders are reacting to the perception that they will be outlawed, silenced or otherwise dismissed through political actions intended to appease the wrath of God.

Of course, this is a totally different subject.

Yes, there is a sector of Christianity that holds to that view. I think it nullifies the work of the Cross in respect to my signature. The other camp is the simply whatever a man sows, he reaps. If you sow wrong you reap wrong or you open the door to the devil and he takes your for all he let him take.

As people are polarizing, violence is increasing in all directions and towards anyone that doesn't agree with them... of course, my solution is Jesus. :)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That's not speech control as there is no law or other reason for the pig to have done that. I would even say the autism is irrelevant .It was police abuse and brutality, pure and simple.
She was arrested for basically hate speech towards lesbians. Whether the police-woman abused the situation doesn't change that youth was arrested because of speech.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
She was arrested for basically hate speech towards lesbians. Whether the police-woman abused the situation doesn't change that youth was arrested because of speech.
There's no law on that. It doesn't exist. Piggly-wiggly was doing nothing than being a pig and abusing the absolute hell out of her position.
As it turns out, lots of people get pulled over and arrested for legal things because many cops are abusive and none are required to have an actual background or knowledge of what the law is.
It's no more speech control than it was light control when I got pulled over for my legal underbody lights by a pig who insisted they're legal.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Then we would also have to determine whose rights are being abused.
Which is why we have courts. We live in a collective so it's inevitable individual rights are limited by the interests of all society, and even other groups.
Do you seeing forcing people to say something as an abuse of rights?
How do you force people to say something? What are you talking about?

Edit: are you referring to the woman who wanted to be a web designer but didn;t want to serve gay couples? If so, this is my take. If you are a professional in business you need to be a professional and serve your customers/clients. If you have a business that requires licensing by the state/city/county then you have a legal obligation to follow the laws and not discriminate. If you try to discriminate then I can see the license being pulled due to violations of civil rights. The state/city can't endorse discrimination by licensing business that discriminate. Businesses need to conduct themselves professionally and within the law.

As far as thos who claim their religious views are such that they can't serve gays, that's absurd. If they are a Christian they already violate what Jesus taught directly for some obscur line in the Old Testament. these folks are just plain bigots and don't even have the dignity and honor to admit it is them who has this attitude, they have to hide behind a bad interpretation of the Bible, as if that gets them off the hook. No, they are bigots and they are immoral, and toxic Christians.

This woman wasn't even a web designer yet. She had no client that wanted a website. As a former web designer myself there is often none of your own speech in what is created, it is content that others are speaking. All the designed is doing is being the means to help other speak. It in no way is the designer being asked to adopt what the client is saying. So no designer is being forced to speak what they don' believe.
 
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