Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[Autodidact]

I just have to say this. From a gay point of view, the discussion of the quality of respective fruits is somewhat humorous.

 

[madhatter85]

hahaha, yeah I didn't think about that one. frubals!

 

[nutshell]

That's my point. You all cannot say definitively that the rest of us are not worthy. You may believe that, but belief don't make it so anywhere outside the walls of the LDS.

We say it definitively according to our beliefs.

You disagree definitively according to your own.

We really are all in the same boat, which means we'd probably do better to find areas where we agree rather than bickering about things we disagree on.

I'll start. I love Jesus Christ. He is my Savior and I trust in Him alone. Nothing I do will ever make up for the great gift of grace he has given me.

I think we can agree on that - don't you?

 

[sojourner]

That is an essential. Everything else is fluff, commentary, corrollary, interpretation.

 

[!Fluffy!]

I really don't think evidence is properly at issue here. What is at issue, I feel, in the question of whether or not Smith was a prophet, is how God operates in raising up prophets.

For crying out loud, sojourner.

The title of the thread and the OP present Smith as a prophet of God, the thread was placed in the religious debates forum.

80+ pages later, the evidence shows resoundingly that it is quite possible and as a matter of fact, EASY to come to an objective conclusion without even approaching any weighty theological matters. If you haven't read them, there are hundreds of posts rebutting the initial claim and I would encourage you to avail yourself of the excellent information some have shared here.

There are very specific reasons to reject the claim that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, based on a few very simple criteria such as -

- Do authentic prophets of God tell lies? NO.
- Do authentic prophets of God manipulate young women into fake 'holy' polygamous unions? NO.
- Do the real prophets of God spread heresy and promote divisiveness in the body of Christ's church? Obviously NOT.

and there are very detailed contemporary sources available to anyone willing to openly investigate them that prove Joseph Smith was a blatant fraud, manipulator and self promoter.

That's what these pages of posts have been uncovering, and it's not nearly as difficult or complex as some would have us believe.

And it has nothing whatsoever to do with fluff, commentary, corrollary, or interpretation - just a straightforward and objective rendering of the facts of history.

 

[Katzpur]

just a straightforward and objective rendering of the facts of history.

As straightforward and objective as you might expect from a person's enemies. There is and always has been a market for slander, and as long as there are people "lacking the common sense" to recognize that a person's enemies are hardly going to be either objective or straightforward, the "facts of history" are going to be presented with a negative bias, and believed by gullible and uneducated people.

 

[Melissa G]

As straightforward and objective as you might expect from a person's enemies. There is and always has been a market for slander, and as long as there are people "lacking the common sense" to recognize that a person's enemies are hardly going to be either objective or straightforward, the "facts of history" are going to be presented with a negative bias, and believed by gullible and uneducated people.

I believe you have that in reverse. The facts of history are just that, facts. There is no bias, you either have tangible evidence or you don't...and in your case and LDS's, you simply don't. It's the LDS that lack common sense.

Smith was a Fraud.

Melissa

 

[Bishka]

There is no bias,

And I'm the Emperor of Rome! Can you honestly say this to yourself and believe this load of crap?

Smith was a Fraud.

As you've yet to prove it, it's still only your opinion, not fact.

 

[Melissa G]

And I'm the Emperor of Rome! Can you honestly say this to yourself and believe this load of crap?



As you've yet to prove it, it's still only your opinion, not fact.

Are you really, which one No, it's not only my opinion, it is the opinion of a great number of people. And unless you can prove otherwise re Smith, Smith remains a charlatan.

Melissa

 

[Bishka]

And unless you can prove otherwise re Smith, Smith remains a charlatan.

Melissa

And unless you can prove he was a charlatan, it's still your people's opinions.

 

[Popeyesays]

Are you really, which one No, it's not only my opinion, it is the opinion of a great number of people. And unless you can prove otherwise re Smith, Smith remains a charlatan.

Melissa

That's a non-sequitur, you know. A) What is a great numbewr of people? B) A 'great nuymber of people DO accept Joseph Smith as a Prophet.

Those two objective facts blow unfixable holes in your argument.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Melissa G]

Nonsense Scott, fact is a fact is a fact. Sure alot of LDS believe Smith was a prophet, that doesn't make it so. Equally I would say, since non-LDS people outnumber LDS people, then indeed more people do * not * believe Smith was a prophet.

Melissa

 

[Melissa G]

I believe we already have by all the known history and archeaology, unless you know different of course.

 

[!Fluffy!]

As straightforward and objective as you might expect from a person's enemies. There is and always has been a market for slander, and as long as there are people "lacking the common sense" to recognize that a person's enemies are hardly going to be either objective or straightforward, the "facts of history" are going to be presented with a negative bias, and believed by gullible and uneducated people.

Not at all. The reason so many of Joseph Smith's original acolytes and buddies gave sworn testimony against him and published articles and books unmasking his fakery and behind the scenes despotism is because they were trying to warn others away from the danger.

Once stricken by conscience and able to see the reality behind the mask, quite a few reputable men and women were willing to risk anything and everything to reveal the truth.

And yes you are right: Joseph Smith made enemies - not surprising considering his background of manipulation, deception and fraud, and the LDS church continues to make enemies of those who abandon Mormonism to this day.

...as well as keeping tabs on those WITHIN the church who MIGHT be dissenters: Strengthening Church Members Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Katzpur]

Not at all. The reason so many of Joseph Smith's original acolytes and buddies gave sworn testimony against him and published articles and books unmasking his fakery and behind the scenes despotism is because they were trying to warn others away from the danger.

And despite the fact that many of them became his enemies, not a single one of the eleven who saw and held the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated ever denied that their experience. They may have had their disagreements with Joseph Smith, but they never recanted the statements that appear in the front of the Book of Mormon

The LDS church continues to make enemies of those who abandon Mormonism to this day.

Honestly, where do you get this nonsense from anyway? How many people do you know who have "abandoned Mormonism" and how has the Church made enemies of them. Let's have some specifics.

...as well as keeping tabs on those WITHIN the church who MIGHT be dissenters: Strengthening Church Members Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Was that supposed to be a link? If so, it didn't work.

 

[dvergur]

I'm curious, how accurate was South Park? Because that was pretty hilarious.

 

[gnomon]

Nonsense Scott, fact is a fact is a fact. Sure alot of LDS believe Smith was a prophet, that doesn't make it so. Equally I would say, since non-LDS people outnumber LDS people, then indeed more people do * not * believe Smith was a prophet.

Melissa

Not when it comes to history.

Besides, in general, the validity of an ideal is not dependent on the population size of its adherents.

 

[nutshell]

Honestly, where do you get this nonsense from anyway? How many people do you know who have "abandoned Mormonism" and how has the Church made enemies of them. Let's have some specifics.

Katz: !Fluffy! hangs around CARM now. I'm sure it's good for his/her ego.

 

[Bishka]

Katz: !Fluffy! hangs around CARM now. I'm sure it's good for his/her ego.

You mean C.hristians A.cting R.eal M.oronic?

 

[sojourner]

Honestly, where do you get this nonsense from anyway? How many people do you know who have "abandoned Mormonism" and how has the Church made enemies of them. Let's have some specifics.

I lived in a community that had a high percentage of Mormons. i knew quite a few Mormons and ex-Mormons, too. I was told many stories of how difficult it was for them to leave Mormonism, because their families shunned them. One lady told me that she used to be a social services worker in Utah. Every August, when all the men left for their hunting trips, her office would have to hire extra help. Their office was inundated with women and children who came in to file for divorce and leave the country, where their husbands couldn't find them and drag them back. She told me that the percentage of family abuse is higher in Utah than the national average, and that many of the women she helped left to escape such abuse, and the hunting parties that brought them back against their will.

I would add that, of the Mormons I have personally known, I have never seen evidence or suspicion of family abuse. Most Mormons I have known have been very kind and reputable. But the stories are out there.