Joseph Smith Was Not A Martyr

[Humanistheart]

Whatever. Ball's in your court, Humanist. I asked you for evidence of your claims before you asked me for evidence of mine.

Not true. Nor would it be relevant even if it were.

When you've answered my question, I'll answer yours. Personally, my opinion is that Joseph Smith to was a martyr for what he believed.

That's the problem, it's your OPINION. I'm simply asking you not to claim smith was a martyr as fact when you freely admitt its merely an opinion.

Your opinion is that he wasn't.

No, my opinion is a person isn't a martyr unless they meet the definition. I asked you to give historical evidence that Smith was killed because of his beliefs, as you claim thus qualifying for the title. You have not done this.

I don't think I'm going to change your mind. Do you think you're going to change mine?

I don't care what you think in this instance (no offense meant) I care about fact. I'm asking you to provide some so I can come to a conclusion relevant to the OP, or at the very least attempt to prove your own conclusion correct.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't care what you think in this instance (no offense meant) I care about fact. I'm asking you to provide some so I can come to a conclusion relevant to the OP, or at the very least attempt to prove your own conclusion correct.

And I don't care what you think either. You also made a statement which you have not substantiated. Furthermore, based on previous conversations with you, I'm not so sure you could come up with any evidence to support your claims even if I were to go first. If you want to talk about what's fact and what's not, it is a fact that Joseph Smith was persecuted long before he ever practised polygamy or was ever in a position of any authority. People hated the idea that he claimed to have talked to God, and they hated the idea that he said God found their creeds to be an abomination. If you don't believe that to be fact, look around you. People hate Mormons today for those same reasons, and not because we're liars or cheaters. That's a fact, my friend.

 

[Love_The_World_You_Find]

yeah i've just looked at a few definitions of and none of them mention not fighting against those coming against them
even if you look at the second definition on dictionary.com "a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause" i don't think you can argue that joseph smith (among many others) didn't endure suffering on behalf of his beliefs....

 

[Humanistheart]

And I don't care what you think either. You also made a statement which you have not substantiated. .

To meet the definition of martyr it must be shown Smith was killed for his beliefs. My assertion, right or wrong, has no bearing on this. It doesn't matter, at all. You claim he died in a way that qualifies him as that word, but offer nothing to show this to be true. I don't know how else to explain this to you. If no one can show smith died for his beliefs then he did not qualify as a martyr. What is difficult to understand that a words quailfiers have to be met for it to be applied?

.

If you want to talk about what's fact and what's not, it is a fact that Joseph Smith was persecuted long before he ever practised polygamy or was ever in a position of any authority. People hated the idea that he claimed to have talked to God, and they hated the idea that he said God found their creeds to be an abomination. If you don't believe that to be fact, look around you. People hate Mormons today for those same reasons, and not because we're liars or cheaters. That's a fact, my friend.

Fact has supporting evidence behind it. You SAY it's fact. Prove it is.

 

[challupa]

Actually, I never have quite been able to figure out the Catholic stance on "revelation." Unless I'm mistaken, Catholics believe that revelation ceased with the deaths of the Apostles. At least that's what I've been told on countless occasions. However, if that was the case, then I don't understand what Papal authority is all about. God either continues to direct His Church or He doesn't. If He does, it has to be by revelation of some sort. Protestants really don't see any need for God to communicate to any one person (such as the Catholic Pope or the LDS Prophet). They feel that the Bible should be sufficient to settle all doctrinal disputes. The problem is, that obviously doesn't appear to be working.

Yes I am not sure about the Catholic revelation through their pope. In many ways the pope doesn't want to change anything and in my opinion actually does harm when he does not advocate protection during sex for example. That is an example of being stuck in old beliefs that don't reflect common sense imo. As you know, I am agnostic, and I don't profess to know if god exists or not. But it would seem to me that an intelligent god would see what was working and what was not and make attempts to change what needs to be changed. After all, a good manager is one that can be flexible enough to make needed changes when it becomes obvious things aren't working the old way. I know people think god is perfect and any mistake is our fault. Well I don't. I do see one thing though. What we are doing is not working and what we do is reliant on what we believe. It is important to have beliefs that support humanity's ability to live together and get along. To recognize that diversity is our strength, not our weakness.

 

[tumbleweed41]

This is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. As I pointed out before, historically, since the dawn of Christianity, it has been the denomination or sect that has decided who qualifies as a martyr for their particular religion. Baptist do not decide who is a Mormon martyr, Catholics do not decide who is a Protestant martyr, and most definitely, atheists do not decide who is a martyr for any religion.

 

[McBell]

Are you serious? what credentials do you have to make judgement on a preacher? Are you, were you ever recognized as a preacher with the credentials to support? I think not. Disqualification for judgement duly noted.

Yes, I am serious.
I used to be a preacher.
In fact, I once counseled inmates.
Yes I had the credentials.
One had to have legit creds in order to do what I did in the prison.
It matters not what you think, the facts are the facts.
I do not need your permission or approval to present facts.
The fact is, you are seriously ignorant about how your Bible came to be in it's present form.

 

[McBell]

It really is no skin off my back what you think.

I understand.
You have already shown that you care nothing for fact or truth.

When looking at this verse its easy to understand that when the canon closed and this verse was included at the end of the last book included that a warning like this would and could easily be applied to the rest of the scriptures.

Here you do nothing but show your ignorance about the Christian Scriptures.

I understand that you ego will not let you see it, but every time you post this self serving lie, you merely show your unwillingness to know what you are talking about.

 

[Love_The_World_You_Find]

JS and his brother went to carthage, illinois, to deliver themselves up and was quoted as saying "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me — he was murdered in cold blood."
He knew he would be killed and yet still went to be tried.

 

[ljam49]

JS and his brother went to carthage, illinois, to deliver themselves up and was quoted as saying "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me — he was murdered in cold blood."
He knew he would be killed and yet still went to be tried.

So your saying the 2 men that Joseph Smith shot and killed in the shootout was not murder?

 

[McBell]

So your saying the 2 men that Joseph Smith shot and killed in the shootout was not murder?

If he does not say it, I will flat out say it:

It was not murder, it was self defense.

and that is if he even actually killed anyone during that particular incident.

 

[Love_The_World_You_Find]

well tbh , i don't think two men did die, at least not at the hands of joseph smith, its entirely possible they could of been shot by accident though by someone aiming for JS and the others. it would surprise me if he even had a gun considering he was in jail
but regardless of that if there where a mob of 200 armed mens shoting at you and you fired some shots back, and happened to kill two people, would you consider yourself a murderer?
anyway you're entitled to your opinion, so if you don't think of joseph smith as a matyr, thats fine with me

 

[ljam49]

well tbh , i don't think two men did die, at least not at the hands of joseph smith, its entirely possible they could of been shot by accident though by someone aiming for JS and the others. it would surprise me if he even had a gun considering he was in jail
but regardless of that if there where a mob of 200 armed mens shoting at you and you fired some shots back, and happened to kill two people, would you consider yourself a murderer?
anyway you're entitled to your opinion, so if you don't think of joseph smith as a matyr, thats fine with me

If that came as an offense I did not mean it that way. I should have worded that better. I have read multiple accounts and they state that an elder of the church, (I think his last name was Wheelock) brought a six shooter into the jail and offered it up and Joseph took it. During the gun fight the stories say that Joseph tried to shoot all six shots of which 3 fired and two men were struck by the bullets. Its goes further stating that neither died at that time, but at later dates from the wounds.
There is always two sides to the story and this is understood. It just comes off as a conflict for Joseph Smith to say I go as a lamb to the slaughter when this phrase denotes someone who goes without fighting or complaining to whatever it is they face. He actually had a pistol and fought in a gun battle. I do not say these things derrogitary but in discussion to try and determine the truth of the matter.

 

[Smoke]

by your definition Jesus was not a martyr because his friends had weapons and fought back against those who took him (the ear incident).

And Jesus' response was to tell his follower to put away the sword. Jesus didn't die with a sword in his hand.

I agree that a martyr is anyone who dies for any faith. One may ask if Joseph Smith actually died for his faith or the compunction to marry again and again.

Joseph Smith was not killed for being a polygamist, and he was not killed for promoting his new revelations. The belief for which he died was the belief that he had the right to destroy the press and type of an opposition newspaper. As such, I am perfectly willing to concede that he was a martyr in the cause of censorship and religious oppression.

 

[silvermoon383]

Um, no. The destruction of the Expositor was the catalyst, not the cause. People had been trying to kill Joseph since Kirtland back in the 1830s. Not to mention Joseph didn't destroy the press, the Nauvoo City Council did. They decided that it fit the legal definition of a nuicance and ordered the mayor (who happened to be Joseph) to have it destroyed. Joseph sent the city marshal to do so. It was a completely legal action in 1840's Illinois, and the US.

 

[Smoke]

Um, no. The destruction of the Expositor was the catalyst, not the cause. People had been trying to kill Joseph since Kirtland back in the 1830s.

Maybe so, but it was the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor's press and type that was Smith's fatal error.

Not to mention Joseph didn't destroy the press, the Nauvoo City Council did. They decided that it fit the legal definition of a nuicance and ordered the mayor (who happened to be Joseph) to have it destroyed. Joseph sent the city marshal to do so.

It was Smith who declared the Expositor a nuisance and who presided over the council meeting that ordered the destruction of the press and type. And really, who are you trying to kid with that remark that the mayor "happened to be Joseph"? Nauvoo was effectively functioning at that time as a theocracy under Smith's leadership.

It was a completely legal action in 1840's Illinois, and the US.

No, it wasn't, and the claim that it was is simply absurd. It wasn't legal in Illinois at that time to shut down a newspaper in that manner. Even if the council had had the authority to shut down the Expositor, there was definitely no authority to destroy the press and type, and it was precisely that destruction of private property that stirred up the mob against the Smiths.

 

[LittleNipper]

How do you know that he has said everything he needs to say. You may think your God is perfect, but his messengers are not. They would have interpreted god's words with their own understanding of things in that day and age. We do mature. We have come a long way imo. The one thing that holds a majority of humanity back is ancient beliefs that do not reflect today's needs. Just the fact that you cling to a belief that the last days are going to be horrific tells me something about you. You "need" to see the world destroyed and judged. You feel everyone is wicked and needs to be punished. I don't see the world that way. I see each of us doing the best we know how. I don't feel we need to be punished or judged. We do enough of that all by ourselves.

Who is in control, the author or the pen? Adam and Eve likely knew more than any of us. So have we matured or degenerated?

 

[LittleNipper]

If he does not say it, I will flat out say it:

It was not murder, it was self defense.

and that is if he even actually killed anyone during that particular incident.

And when Peter cut off that ear, what did JESUS say?

 

[LittleNipper]

Then how do you explain the scrolls in a monastery in tibet that say he was there?

None of the disciples were asked to go with HIM. Anyway, there are lots of things written about lots of things, that doesn't make it so.

 

[LittleNipper]

Great. So why is there still a Church, then? If all the work is done, exactly what do you do on Sunday mornings?


Going by the Gospels, he got shooed from town to town by a lot of unhappy people over the course of that ministry, though. And he told his disciples to travel out over the world.

We worship. And I will be doing a lot more of that in heaven one day. HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. Which were and are and evermore shall be.