Joseph Smith Was Not A Martyr

[Humanistheart]

Because that's obviously what you believe because you're an atheist. Many have discovered the truth in the Bible - that you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

It has nothing to do with 'belief' and quite frankly if it had any truth to it at all then belief wouldn't have to factor in. If it were truth you could offer evidence of that. You believe it's 'truth' but admit flat out it requires you to come up with explanations from your own imagination just to make it almost work. I must have a more stringent definition of truth than you.

 

[Watchmen]

It has nothing to do with 'belief' and quite frankly if it had any truth to it at all then belief wouldn't have to factor in. If it were truth you could offer evidence of that. You believe it's 'truth' but admit flat out it requires you to come up with explanations from your own imagination just to make it almost work. I must have a more stringent definition of truth than you.

The truth I speak of is of a spiritual nature.

 

[Humanistheart]

The truth I speak of is of a spiritual nature.

Oh of course it is. Just like how god's word didn't actually come true in the bible so it must be a 'spiritural' death. When in daubt call it 'spiritual' so no fact, evidence, or reason is necessary. Gotcha.

 

[Watchmen]

Oh of course it is. Just like how god's word didn't actually come true in the bible so it must be a 'spiritural' death. When in daubt call it 'spiritual' so no fact, evidence, or reason is necessary. Gotcha.

Like I said, you don't believe - that's what makes you an atheist. It isn't a "when in doubt" situation - the Bible is meant to bring us to Christ and teaches us God's plan for us. Obviously, the whole God-concept is a spiritual one.

 

[Humanistheart]

Like I said, you don't believe - that's what makes you an atheist. It isn't a "when in doubt" situation - the Bible is meant to bring us to Christ and teaches us God's plan for us. Obviously, the whole God-concept is a spiritual one.

No, the NT is meant to bring people to a man they falsy attribute the title christ. Yes, you are using the word spiritual whenever you fail to justify a believe in the bible.

 

[McBell]

Like I said, you don't believe - that's what makes you an atheist. It isn't a "when in doubt" situation - the Bible is meant to bring us to Christ and teaches us God's plan for us. Obviously, the whole God-concept is a spiritual one.

this makes it sound like you are saying that one has to believe in order to believe.

 

[Humanistheart]

this makes it sound like you are saying that one has to believe in order to believe.

Yeah, it does doesn't it?

 

[Witch of Hope]

You really think it's that simple? Are you aware Smith was persecuted long before any of the events you describe?

It is right! Joseph Smith was accused and perscuted several times. But why? Was he innocent? Or was he guilty? In some cases he became spoken for guilty. E.G., in the case of the "Tresure hunting". Not free of charge Smith had the nickname "pepstone Joe". I have found in the book "Changing world of Mormonism" of the Tanners the photocopy of the account of the court. In it it had been found Smith guilty of deception. And this is only one of many documents!

 

[Watchmen]

No, the NT is meant to bring people to a man they falsy attribute the title christ. Yes, you are using the word spiritual whenever you fail to justify a believe in the bible.

Yes. You're an atheist.

 

[Watchmen]

this makes it sound like you are saying that one has to believe in order to believe.

Or, he's not a believer so of course the Bible doesn't mean to him what it means to a believer.

 

[Watchmen]

It is right! Joseph Smith was accused and perscuted several times. But why? Was he innocent? Or was he guilty? In some cases he became spoken for guilty. E.G., in the case of the "Tresure hunting". Not free of charge Smith had the nickname "pepstone Joe". I have found in the book "Changing world of Mormonism" of the Tanners the photocopy of the account of the court. In it it had been found Smith guilty of deception. And this is only one of many documents!

For a good discussion on Smith's treasure hunting I suggest you read Bushman.

 

[Father Heathen]

I believe the Bible is inspired. I feel that those other texts are only stories written by people.

But you have absolutely nothing solid or substantial that differentiates or elevates your storybook above the rest. You only believe it because you were indoctrinated to do so, regardless of logic and evidence to the contrary. It doesn't help credibility.

 

[McBell]

Or, he's not a believer so of course the Bible doesn't mean to him what it means to a believer.

I understand that that is what you meant, but that isn't what it sounds like.
That's all.

 

[Humanistheart]

Or, he's not a believer so of course the Bible doesn't mean to him what it means to a believer.

You seem to confuse fact and faith.

 

[Smoke]

Oh for crying out loud. That's how other people feel about the bible, and? Please don't attempt to turn this into anther bible V BoM debate. You couldn't win it on the thread you started, why go that way with this one?

The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon debate was funny when I first encountered it, but the thrill is gone. I encounter the inability to reason so often that it's become like my arthritis -- a nagging pain that is always there but is no longer very interesting.

Wanted he to suffer the martyr's death? No, he wanted that the Nauvoo legion freed him. He shot down two men with a smuggled gun, and wounded fatally. And he called the distress signal of the Freemasons when he fell from the window(Smith was Freemason). Does such a martyr of faith act? No! Thus a coward acts!!!!!

Whether Joseph Smith was a martyr for his faith or not is something best judged by that faith. I don't see him as a martyr for any worthy cause myself, but it would be surprising if Mormons didn't take a different view from mine.

However, the accusation of cowardice is obviously false. He returned to Illinois knowing his life was in danger there. And sure, he tried to get help, and he managed to arm himself and tried to defend himself against people who were trying to kill him -- who, in fact, succeeded in killing him almost immediately.

There's nothing cowardly about trying to get out of a difficult situation alive. There's nothing cowardly about arming yourself against people who seek your life. There's nothing cowardly about trying to defend yourself.

Maybe if a band of armed men busted in on your and your brother, killed your brother, and clearly intended to kill you, you would turn and die with a saintly smile on your lips. Up to you. Personally, though, I wouldn't blame anybody for trying to take out as many of the ******** as he could before they got him. I think that's what most people would do. If I had a gun, it's probably what I would do.

 

[Witch of Hope]

For a good discussion on Smith's treasure hunting I suggest you read Bushman.

They are a view good books published about that. Read Compton or Tanners, for example.

 

[Witch of Hope]

@ Smoke,

to me a coward is a person which don't want to stand for his actions. His action as Mayor of Nauvoo in case of the Nauvoo Expositor was against the constitution and the Law. He had be there to go to court and be jailed. But he fleed by night lik a thief. He was ordained by the council of the fifthy as a king, want to have had power over Non LDS and h was involved in the Nauvoo Bogus Case and several othr crimes. The Government had the right to catch him, bring him to court and sentence him. Did you know, why he really come back? Not because he was innocent, because he want to be known as martyr in LDS eyes.But he wasn't that. He was a liar, a swindler and he seduce many innocent people, especially women

 

[Smoke]

@ Smoke,

to me a coward is a person which don't want to stand for his actions. His action as Mayor of Nauvoo in case of the Nauvoo Expositor was against the constitution and the Law. He had be there to go to court and be jailed. But he fleed by night lik a thief. He was ordained by the council of the fifthy as a king, want to have had power over Non LDS and h was involved in the Nauvoo Bogus Case and several othr crimes. The Government had the right to catch him, bring him to court and sentence him. Did you know, why he really come back? Not because he was innocent, because he want to be known as martyr in LDS eyes.But he wasn't that. He was a liar, a swindler and he seduce many innocent people, especially women

I didn't say I admired him, and I didn't say he was innocent. I said that he was clearly not a coward. Having one flaw, or a hundred flaws, doesn't make you guilty of every flaw.

I also disagree that he returned to Illinois because he wanted to be known as a martyr. He wanted to be known as a martyr if somebody killed him, but I think it's clear that he wasn't looking to get killed. He took steps to avoid being killed. His life was more important to him than his reputation -- which, in my opinion, it ought to be. I think he had hopes of being vindicated at trial. He had tremendous confidence in his own charisma and power of persuasion, which were pretty considerable.

Joseph Smith did a lot of unsavory things. In my opinion, almost everything he ever did on the public stage was unsavory. But I don't think he was a coward, and I don't think his attempt to save his own life from a lynch mob equals refusing to stand for his actions. He was a criminal who deserved to be judged under the law. The mob who killed him were criminals too, though, and the crime of murder is often considered a more serious crime than the destruction of private property.

 

[Katzpur]

to me a coward is a person which don't want to stand for his actions. His action as Mayor of Nauvoo in case of the Nauvoo Expositor was against the constitution and the Law. He had be there to go to court and be jailed. But he fleed by night lik a thief. He was ordained by the council of the fifthy as a king, want to have had power over Non LDS and h was involved in the Nauvoo Bogus Case and several othr crimes. The Government had the right to catch him, bring him to court and sentence him. Did you know, why he really come back? Not because he was innocent, because he want to be known as martyr in LDS eyes.But he wasn't that. He was a liar, a swindler and he seduce many innocent people, especially women

You know, when you posted in your intro thread, I thought you might actually turn out to be a kind of a likeable person. You certainly do have an interesting history! I've been to Berlin; it was an incredible city. My dad had a 40 year career as a professor of German. In spite of our differences, I welcomed you to the forum and thought I might enjoy getting to know you better. I didn't care that you didn't share my religious beliefs. It didn't even bother me that you mentioned you were formerly LDS but left the Church. I don't judge people based on their religion, politics, gender, or skin color. I judge people on their integrity, and I really, really detest liars. I can't stand the way some people will resort to blantent mispresentation of the truth in order to defame someone else.

By the way, if you haven't yet read my welcome post, don't bother looking for it. I deleted it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's right...because the Bible is obviously meant to be taken literally. :sarcastic

If Adam could have a non-literal death, then why couldn't he have had a non-literal life?