Joseph Smith Was Not A Martyr

[Father Heathen]

If I wanted to believe lies I would believe that after people die they can still be saved, or that works get me to heaven, or that American Indians (lamenites) are the descendants of Jews, or that Joseph Smith said that all sects are wrong and going to hell and only mormons are right, or that John the Apostle and three Nephites have been left to roam the earth spreading the gospel and healing people. But like you I don't personally care for lies.

The irony. How could you be so oblivious to it?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Open another thread. This one is a discussion on mormonism.

If you are willing to judge, you must also be open to judgment.

LDS history is alot more incriminating than supporting.

 

[McBell]

As is Christian history as a whole. Are you sure you want to open that can of worms?

Open another thread. This one is a discussion on mormonism.

Yeah Tumbleweed, this is a Mormon bashing thread.
You can not bash Baptists in a Mormon bashing thread.

What is the world coming to when people start bashing Baptists in their own Mormon bashing thread?

If you are willing to judge, you must also be open to judgment.

Although i personally agree, it has been my experience that the vast majority (which, for you stupid people, does not mean all) of people only believe this as it applies to other people, not to themselves.

 

[Katzpur]

I did not see a post asking that question. I will go back and look where it popped up. So since I just seen this for the first time, I don't have the books in my hands, I would not be able to answer that at this point. Save that question for a future post. I just had a major surgery and am at home healing and it may be some time before I go back to the library. I am restricted from driving under doctors orders until April.

So if I wait until April, you might answer it? :biglaugh:What I'm getting from this statement is that, if you were to answer my question, you would be getting your answer from the Tanners. And if they say, the LDS Church "fought to stop [this information] from being published," that makes it so? How gullible are you really?

There will be no corrections for the last post. Everything was straight from LDS church history or the BoM. Only out would be the normal "those are not authorized writings" bit, or "thats not valid for us anymore" excuse. LDS history is alot more incriminating than supporting.

So you would prefer to get your information from non-official sources as opposed to official sources, I see. What's wrong with using our official, authorized sources? What's wrong with referring to what we actually teach? LDS history is as "incriminating" at the source of that history makes it. Do you get your world news from CNN or from the National Enquirer? Do you think those two sources are equally valid?

Anyway, I've decided not to bother responding to those questions on this thread after all. This thread is a discussion on whether Joseph Smith was a martyr or not, and those questions have absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

 

[Witch of Hope]

You know, when you posted in your intro thread, I thought you might actually turn out to be a kind of a likeable person. You certainly do have an interesting history! I've been to Berlin; it was an incredible city. My dad had a 40 year career as a professor of German. In spite of our differences, I welcomed you to the forum and thought I might enjoy getting to know you better. I didn't care that you didn't share my religious beliefs. It didn't even bother me that you mentioned you were formerly LDS but left the Church. I don't judge people based on their religion, politics, gender, or skin color. I judge people on their integrity, and I really, really detest liars. I can't stand the way some people will resort to blantent mispresentation of the truth in order to defame someone else.

By the way, if you haven't yet read my welcome post, don't bother looking for it. I deleted it.

Everything I had post is proofable. E.g. a simple question: How many different writings written by Joseph Smith, is known about the First Vision (4 as far as I know)? Another question: Who saw Joseph Smith first: Nephi or Moroni (It was Nephi, as it was published in Times and Seasons and the Story of Joseph Smith, written by his Mother. Both was later changed in Moroni)? And a last question: How many changings are happen in the Book of Mormon since 1830 (over 3000 in this "most correct book on earth" most of them to change cause of changed doctrines)? Did you know that?
He was a liar. And he was a coward. There are enough proofs for that in your own history.

 

[Witch of Hope]

The Tanners are a bad joke. Not even legitimate non-LDS scholars put any stock in what they have to say.

They are Christians, and they argue as Christians. I don't like that. But they show us a lot of evidences which shows to us, that this Church is based on a swindle. In her book "The Changing World ofMormonism" you can find enough pictures from the Times and seasons (e-g. the Nephi stuff and that Joseph Smith saw only angels as his first vision), and other stuff from ancient church publications.
Mormon scholare become their salary fromthe church, and as they said here in germany, they sing the song their master pay for.

 

[McBell]

they sing the song their master pay for.

So are we to hold you to the same?

Which of your songs masters do you obey?

 

[Witch of Hope]

I have one question for you, ljam, and you might as well know right up front that I am going to repeat it as many times as necessary until I get an answer:

What information did the Tanners find and publish that the LDS Church "fought to stop from being published"? I want specifics and I want sources. This is really going to be good. :yes:

For example this one here as the Tanners published in their book "Changing word of Mormonism" (free download as PDF-file):

The Mormon authorities have usually answered the Tanners by the silent treatment, apparently feeling that the less exposure their work received the better it would be for the church. Recently, however, Mormon authorities have issued an anonymous reply that any reputable scholar and historian would be rightly ashamed to sign his name to.
(Page 17)

In other words: They oppess their own scholars

 

[Witch of Hope]

Yeah Tumbleweed, this is a Mormon bashing thread.
You can not bash Baptists in a Mormon bashing thread..

We are talking about Mormons. This is not a bashing place. And we talk with our knowledge as former LDS, as LDS or as interesting non-LDS.

 

[McBell]

In other words: They oppess their own scholars

You have got to be kidding me!
Are you serious?

If this is the best you got, you better tuck tail now and go.

Now I understand it is easier for you Mormon bashers when you can pat each other on the back, but come on, if this is the best you got....

 

[Witch of Hope]

So are we to hold you to the same?

Which of your songs masters do you obey?

The LDS cult is NOT my master. I'm my own master as a dianic solitary witch!

 

[McBell]

This is not a bashing place.

Either you have a rather different definition of "bashing" or you are flat out lieing or perhaps you have not read the crap that has been presented in this here thread?

Perhaps you are to stupid to see it for what it is?

This is a Mormon bashing thread.
Plain and simple.
If you cannot/will not see that, then you are really not smart and or honest enough to have an opinion worth considering.

 

[McBell]

The LDS cult is NOT my master. I'm my own master as a dianic solitary witch!

Yet you sing the atypical Mormon bashing song...

So perhaps you are lieing about your master or perhaps you are not mindful enough of your master to actually know who your master is....?
Or perhaps you are merely a little worker ant who thinks she is the queen?

Either way the evidence you have presented thus far most definitely does not support you being your own master.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

I don't know enough about this JS scrutiny to contribute there but here is my contribution to the mormon spanking.

And a last question: How many changings are happen in the Book of Mormon since 1830 (over 3000 in this "most correct book on earth" most of them to change cause of changed doctrines)? Did you know that?

I do not know if there have been changes specifically to the BOM. I do know that there have been many additions and changes to the doctrine by the prophets.
But, changes to doctrine does not equate liar in the past. That is one of the reasons the LDS church is so unique. It is dynamic, ever evolving, and it adapts to the present. Just as so many say about the teachings in the Bible... the lessons back then do not apply to now... it's the same concept but the LDS church seems to recognize that.

He was a liar. And he was a coward. There are enough proofs for that in your own history.

Let's suppose that JS was a liar and a coward. It is natural right? We all are liars and cowards somewhere inside.

Who cares?

Does one have to be perfect to facilitate divine truths? Obviously not because no human is perfect and there have been many manefestations of divine facilitations in all religions in all of history. Is what comes out perfect? I don't think so, but does that mean it should be crushed under your shoe and spit on? No.

I don't know why you seem to feel such hostility towards JS....

 

[Sententia]

The Mormon authorities have usually answered the Tanners by the silent treatment

I wonder if they learned from god? The divine authority is said to be master of said treatment taking it to a whole new level.

 

[Witch of Hope]

Take a look how Mormons act if they don't want to be in front of a court:

My Great Grandfather, James Holt, was threatened by the Danites, with his life, if he went to the proper authorities and told them about the massacre. He and his family were living in Torry, Utah at the time. His sister's husband had been at the massacre and told James what had happened there. James recorded the information in his journal. Somehow the Church authorities found out about the journal. They sent the Danites to silence James, whatever the cost, and take the journal. Because of the threats of the Danites and family involvement, the journal was thrown down the Holt well taking its horrible secrets with it.http://www.exmormon.org/journey/journey_h.htm

 

[Witch of Hope]

Either you have a rather different definition of "bashing" or you are flat out lieing or perhaps you have not read the crap that has been presented in this here thread?

Perhaps you are to stupid to see it for what it is?

This is a Mormon bashing thread.
Plain and simple.
If you cannot/will not see that, then you are really not smart and or honest enough to have an opinion worth considering.

It is a place to talk/write about some truths, LDS members don't want to hear!

 

[McBell]

It is a place to talk/write about some truths, LDS members don't want to hear!

And we are waiting for you to start singing that particular song.

But instead, you continue to sing the exact same typical Mormon bashing sang that has been sung on this forum for years.

 

[Witch of Hope]

Let's suppose that JS was a liar and a coward. It is natural right? We all are liars and cowards somewhere inside.

Who cares?

Yes, nobody is perfect! But the Mormons did always, as their prophet was perfect even as he did something wrong!

 

[Witch of Hope]

And we are waiting for you to start singing that particular song.

But instead, you continue to sing the exact same typical Mormon bashing sang that has been sung on this forum for years.

To say the truth about something is not bashing someone.