Joseph Smith Was Not A Martyr

[McBell]

When confronted with the soldiers in the Garden and Peter pulled his sword out and struck Malchus's ear off, Jesus had him put his sword away and Jesus submitted to them without resistance.

and?
Did you not read the definition of martyr or are you going to ignore it because it completely destroys your argument?

Seems to me that you would be much better off tucking your tail, backing quietly out of this thread, regrouping, and trying again in a new thread.
But then, it is up to you to preserve what credibility you have left.

 

[ljam49]

that's it?
That is the best argument you can bring forth to support your allegation that Joseph Smith is not a martyr?

Wow.
Talk about a complete disappoint....

Wow, just came to this board, started a debate and in just the first post the hostility level has hit high levels. Let me ask you how else you can determine a martyr other than how he is recorded as acting when confronted with his own death? Do you have some other method to measure a martyr by?

 

[McBell]

Wow, just came to this board, started a debate and in just the first post the hostility level has hit high levels. Let me ask you how else you can determine a martyr other than how he is recorded as acting when confronted with his own death? Do you have some other method to measure a martyr by?

yes.
By using the definition of the word "martyr"...

Here it is again for your ignoring convenience:

mar·tyr (märt′ər)
noun

1a. any of those persons who choose to suffer or die rather than give up their faith or principles

1b. any person tortured or killed because of his or her beliefs
martyr - Definition of martyr at YourDictionary.com

Nothing about "resistance" in those definitions. I think 1b is particularly appropriate, don't you?

 

[ljam49]

yes.
By using the definition of the word "martyr"...

Here it is again for your ignoring convenience:

Look, I don't know you from adam, but if you think your smart remarks make me want to debate with you, they don't. Usually posters with that type of attitude don't have much of value to say anyway. I have not tried in any manner to be disrespectful to you.

 

[McBell]

Look, I don't know you from adam, but if you think your smart remarks make me want to debate with you, they don't. Usually posters with that type of attitude don't have much of value to say anyway. I have not tried in any manner to be disrespectful to you.

fair enough.

however,
Why are you ignoring the definition of the word "martyr"?

 

[idea]

Why do the LDS claim that Joseph Smith is a Martyr? Joseph Smith had a gun in the Carthage Jail as it all started and unloaded 6 shots out of his gun, of which 2-3 people were hit by his shots. A martyr is one that willingly and without any resistance gives their lives for what they believe in. Joseph Smith does not show by his actions to be a martyr.

by your definition Jesus was not a martyr because his friends had weapons and fought back against those who took him (the ear incident). "not my will but thine". Jesus' will was not death - that last prayer was Jesus fighting for life. The point is not to die for something you believe in. The point is to live for what you believe in. Those who don't fight for life don't respect life. "Eternal life" it's about life, fighting for life, attaining life - about never giving up, never letting death overpower you.

read this if you want to know what happened.
LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - The Martyrdom: The Prophet Seals His Testimony with His Blood

Joseph is a martyr because he could have lived if he gave up his beliefs. He never gave in, he never denied what he knew to be true. He was killed for his beliefs.

 

[idea]

mar·tyr (märt′ər)
noun


1a. any of those persons who choose to suffer or die rather than give up their faith or principles 1b. any person tortured or killed because of his or her beliefs
martyr - Definition of martyr at YourDictionary.com

Nothing about "resistance" in those definitions. I think 1b is particularly appropriate, don't you?

exactly.

 

[ljam49]

by your definition Jesus was not a martyr because his friends had weapons and fought back against those who took him (the ear incident). "not my will but thine". Jesus' will was not death - that last prayer was Jesus fighting for life. The point is not to die for something you believe in. The point is to live for what you believe in. Those who don't fight for life don't respect life.

read this if you want to know what happened.


Thanks for the post. You missed what I was getting at. Jesus never fought for His life. He came to lay down His life and done it willingly knowing the glory the Father would give Him. How could what I said be twisted to say that Jesus was martyr. It was an example of submitting without resistance. Jesus was not a martyr. What Peter done was out of ignorance. What Jesus done was went willingly knowing that this was the plan of Father.

Matthew 16:25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

 

[idea]

Fight, Fought (see also Battle; Strife; War)
Ex. 1:10 lest they multiply ... and f. against us
Ex. 14:14 (Deut. 1:30; Josh. 10:14; 23:10) Lord shall f. for you
1 Sam. 17:32 thy servant will go and f.
Neh. 4:14 f. for your brethren
Ps. 35:1 f. against them that f. against me
Isa. 29:8 (2 Ne. 27:3) nations be, that f. against mount Zion
Isa. 31:4 so shall the Lord ... f. for mount Zion
Zech. 14:14 Judah also shall f. at Jerusalem
John 18:36 then would my servants f.
Acts 5:39 haply ye be found even to f. against God
Acts 23:9 let us not f. against God
1 Tim. 6:12 f. the good f. of faith
2 Tim. 4:7 I have f. a good f.
Heb. 10:32 ye endured a great f. of afflictions
James 4:2 ye f. and war, yet ye have not
Rev. 2:16 Repent, or else I ... will f. against them
Rev. 12:7 Michael and his angels f. against the dragon
(Topical Guide | F Fight, Fought:Entry)


Good Christians know how to fight!

 

[idea]

Jesus never fought for His life. He came to lay down His life and done it willingly

it was not willingly.

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
(New Testament | Luke 22:42)

"not my will" - it was NOT Jesus will to die.

 

[ljam49]

it was not willingly.

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
(New Testament | Luke22:42)

"not my will" - it was NOT Jesus will to die.

Since this is going away from the subject and will open a new can of worms I will let it go at that. I have not been on this board one evening and have found that posting here goes straight to arguing and not debating.

 

[McBell]

Since this is going away from the subject and will open a new can of worms I will let it go at that. I have not been on this board one evening and have found that posting here goes straight to arguing and not debating.

Perhaps you should work on your debating "skills".
It is considered rather rude to ignore the points that completely destroy your argument in favour of your agenda.

Enough meat yet?

 

[idea]

Battle (see also Fight; God to Fight Our Battles; Strife; War)
Deut. 20:1 goest out to b. against thine enemies
1 Sam. 4:1 Israel went out against the Philistines to b.
1 Sam. 17:47 b. is the Lord's
1 Sam. 18:17 be thou valiant ... and fight the Lord's b.
2 Sam. 11:1 (1 Chr. 20:1) time when kings go forth to b.
2 Chr. 20:15 b. is not yours, but God's
Eccl. 9:11 race is not to the swift, nor the b. to the strong
Jer. 50:22 sound of b. is in the land
Zech. 14:2 gather all nations against Jerusalem to b.
1 Cor. 14:8 who shall prepare himself to the b.
Rev. 16:14 gather them to the b. of that great day
Rev. 20:8 Gog and Magog, to gather them together to b.
Ether 15:19 Satan ... went again to b.
(Topical Guide | B Battle:Entry)

all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing... I agree, An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, there are often multiple ways to fight back, but I respect Joseph's death - he went down kicking and fighting, he didn't just give up like most in his situation would, I respet that in him.

 

[idea]

Since this is going away from the subject and will open a new can of worms I will let it go at that. I have not been on this board one evening and have found that posting here goes straight to arguing and not debating.

the point is life - to fight for life - to honor life - respect life. It's about living, not dieing. That's why we don't put crosses on our church buildings - it's not about death, it's about life.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:55 - 58)

There is no glory to be found in death. Glory comes from life. An honorable Christian thing to fight for life.

 

[ljam49]

Fight, Fought (see also Battle; Strife; War)
Ex. 1:10 lest they multiply ... and f. against us
Ex. 14:14 (Deut. 1:30; Josh. 10:14; 23:10) Lord shall f. for you
1 Sam. 17:32 thy servant will go and f.
Neh. 4:14 f. for your brethren
Ps. 35:1 f. against them that f. against me
Isa. 29:8 (2 Ne. 27:3) nations be, that f. against mount Zion
Isa. 31:4 so shall the Lord ... f. for mount Zion
Zech. 14:14 Judah also shall f. at Jerusalem
John 18:36 then would my servants f.
Acts 5:39 haply ye be found even to f. against God
Acts 23:9 let us not f. against God
1 Tim. 6:12 f. the good f. of faith
2 Tim. 4:7 I have f. a good f.
Heb. 10:32 ye endured a great f. of afflictions
James 4:2 ye f. and war, yet ye have not
Rev. 2:16 Repent, or else I ... will f. against them
Rev. 12:7 Michael and his angels f. against the dragon
(Topical Guide | FFight, Fought:Entry)


Good Christians know how to fight!

Well, what you view and what God views is two different things. Look at Hebrews 11:35-38. God's word says that those that died for Him were "men of whom the world was not worthy". Not those that fight others to the death over their beliefs. Or Revelations 6:9-11 where the martyrs are directly under Gods alter and justice would not be brought about until the number of their brothers was fulfilled that would die in like manner. This says much about what God thinks of those that willing give their life for their faith. Reading back in Hebrews shows these martyrs did not die fighting back, many walked around destitute and ill treated.

 

[McBell]

Well, what you view and what God views is two different things.

ooh goody.
Yet another person to tell us all what gods view REALLY are....

Look at Hebrews 11:35-38. God's word says that those that died for Him were "men of whom the world was not worthy". Not those that fight others to the death over their beliefs. Or Revelations 6:9-11 where the martyrs are directly under Gods alter and justice would not be brought about until the number of their brothers was fulfilled that would die in like manner. This says much about what God thinks of those that willing give their life for their faith. Reading back in Hebrews shows these martyrs did not die fighting back, many walked around destitute and ill treated.

intersting how you are still not addressing the definition of Martyr....

 

[Watchmen]

ljam...do you have any response to the definition or not?

 

[ljam49]

ooh goody.
Yet another person to tell us all what gods view REALLY are....


intersting how you are still not addressing the definition of Martyr....

I did that in the opening post. That would post #1. Do you need directions back up there?

 

[McBell]

I did that in the opening post. That would post #1. Do you need directions back up there?

and post #11 refutes your Humpty Dumpty definition.
Yet you thus far have ignored this fact.

I understand that your whole argument rests on your Humpty Dumpty definition.
Is that the reason you choose to ignore the definition straight from a dictionary?

You do not even offer a link to a source that agrees with your Humpty Dumpty definition.
Though I would really advise that you choose a dictionary...
But then, that's just me.

 

[ljam49]

and post #11 refutes your Humpty Dumpty definition.
Yet you thus far have ignored this fact.

That just a fabrication on your part. Having two definitions of one word does not cancel out the meaning of either. Maybe you should stop reading that story of humpty dumpty and move on up to some real books.