Joseph Smith Was Not A Martyr

[LittleNipper]

I agree that a martyr is anyone who dies for any faith. One may ask if Joseph Smith actually died for his faith or the compunction to marry again and again.

My personal feeling is that as long as the Mormon faith stuck with additional scriptures, and angels speaking to Joseph Smith, that there was little trouble. The problems started as Joseph Smith began trying to redefine matrimonial laws in the United States in ways that seemed to reflect those of some Arabian nabobs.

Victorian conservatives were not the least bit impressed with Smith's appitite for what must have seemed to even the "sailors" of that day as nothing short of womanizing. The very similar thing is happening again today as some homosexuals and liberals are again trying to redefine marital laws to suit tastes in sexual persuits. I might add that people in America at that time were for more versed in the Bible that most people today. And interestingly the Shakers, who were very influencial at that time, were against co-habitation and marriage. They considered sex at the very least a distraction.

Joseph Smith, on the other hand, seems to indicate that to be a prophet one needed more sexual diversion ---- or at least several wives to be spiritual.

 

[no-body]

That's what always happens with this question


Because he wasn't perfect? None of the prophets were perfect people. Obviously we are more aware of Joseph Smith's imperfections because he lived less than 200 years ago.

I hear Moses liked to kick puppies on his bad days

That's reasonable. I must say as someone who likes to study religions and their prophets, Joseph Smith and the LDS are one of the few religions that don't do it for me, but hearing from Mormons in real life and on here strengthens my position that they are some of the nicest people I've ever met.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Joseph Smith, on the other hand, seems to indicate that to be a prophet one needed more sexual diversion ---- or at least several wives to be spiritual.

Unlike Abraham, Ahab, David, Eliphaz, Esau, Ezra, Gideon, Solomon....etc

 

[LittleNipper]

Unlike Abraham, Ahab, David, Eliphaz, Esau, Ezra, Gideon, Solomon....etc

They had no civil law in place telling them what they needed to abide to. Also, there is the fact that America at that time was mostly Protestant and saw the revelations of the New Testament with regard to marriage as the final word and not to be side-stepped.

I notice that none of those you mentioned are from the New Testament. And Ahab is not a very good example of enything but an evil monarch.

 

[tumbleweed41]

They had no civil law in place telling them waht they need to abide to. Also there is the fact that America at that time was mostly Protestant and saw the revelations of the New Testament with regard to marriage as the final word and not to be side-stepped.

I notice that none of those you mentioned are from the New Testament. And Ahab is not a very good example of enything but an evil monarch.

Yet God condemned none of them for their multiple wives. Not even Ahab.
But I see by your response that civil laws are more important than Gods feelings on the matter.

 

[McBell]

I agree that a martyr is anyone who dies for any faith. One may ask if Joseph Smith actually died for his faith or the compunction to marry again and again.

My personal feeling is that as long as the Mormon faith stuck with additional scriptures, and angels speaking to Joseph Smith, that there was little trouble. The problems started as Joseph Smith began trying to redefine matrimonial laws in the United States in ways that seemed to reflect those of some Arabian nabobs.

Victorian conservatives were not the least bit impressed with Smith's appitite for what must have seemed to even the "sailors" of that day as nothing short of womanizing. The very similar thing is happening again today as some homosexuals and liberals are again trying to redefine marital laws to suit tastes in sexual persuits. I might add that people in America at that time were for more versed in the Bible that most people today. And interestingly the Shakers, who were very influencial at that time, were against co-habitation and marriage. They considered sex at the very least a distraction.

Joseph Smith, on the other hand, seems to indicate that to be a prophet one needed more sexual diversion ---- or at least several wives to be spiritual.

What the Hell does any of this have to do with the thread topic?

 

[McBell]

Yet God condemned none of them for their multiple wives. Not even Ahab.
But I see by your response that civil laws are more important than Gods feelings on the matter.

It is interesting that Littlenipper has the audacity to bring this off topicness up here in this thread while completely avoiding this thread like the plague:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...049-littlenipper-sex-without-procreation.html
​

What are you scared of littlenipper?

 

[LittleNipper]

What the Hell does any of this have to do with the thread topic?

It is possible that Joseph Smith could be considered a fugative who practiced bigamy and was finally caught... Sadly, some unlawful people killed him in a shoot-out. Had he gone to court, it is possible Mr. Smith's real intensions would have been more broadly exposed. However, by turning Smith into martyr, Mormonism was helped.

 

[LittleNipper]

It is interesting that Littlenipper has the audacity to bring this off topicness up here in this thread while completely avoiding this thread like the plague:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...049-littlenipper-sex-without-procreation.html
​

What are you scared of littlenipper?

Tumbleweed41 brought up about the Old Testament men with several wives. He didn't mention any New Testament ones though...

 

[tumbleweed41]

It is interesting that Littlenipper has the audacity to bring this off topicness up here in this thread while completely avoiding this thread like the plague:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...049-littlenipper-sex-without-procreation.html
​

What are you scared of littlenipper?

Tumbleweed41 brought up about the Old Testament men with several wives. He didn't mention any New Testament ones though...

Again, God condemned none of them for their multiple wives. Are you better than God?

(BTW, you brought the issue of multiple wives into the thread...)

I agree that a martyr is anyone who dies for any faith. One may ask if Joseph Smith actually died for his faith or the compunction to marry again and again.

Joseph Smith, on the other hand, seems to indicate that to be a prophet one needed more sexual diversion ---- or at least several wives to be spiritual.

 

[Archer]

1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,a he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11In the same way, their wivesb are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.



I don't need more than one I had a dream about it one time, almost had a heart attack. One is enough.


I think us common folk can have more than one by the Bible.

 

[tumbleweed41]

1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,a he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,


I don't need more than one I had a dream about it one time, almost had a heart attack. One is enough.


I think us common folk can have more than one by the Bible.

1 Corinthians 7:1 "Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry"

1 Corinthians 7:8-9 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I


So we have gone from many wives, to one wife, to no wife....

What this has to do with Martyrdom I have no idea:run:

 

[ljam49]

ljam49,

There is one thing in your posting on this topic that is interesting. I've noticed you say, in your opinion, that Joseph Smith was not a martyr. You then go on to compare his impending death to that of Jesus Christ. This strikes me as odd.

Any man compared to Jesus Christ will come up short. Jesus Christ is divine, the Son of God, the only perfect person. Of course he didn't fight back. He is the Savior, the sacrifice for all mankind. He knew it was time for his death. I wouldn't expect him to fight back. Other instances when attempts were made on his life he would disappear and escape the danger.

Then we have Joseph Smith. An imperfect man with human flaws. He sees his brother shot in the face and die. There's a gun nearby and in a rush of anger, fear, revenge, whatever, he snatches it up and shoots at the mob. BFD. Anyone familiar with Joseph Smith will know he had a temper.

Then he runs to the window to escape/flee to draw the mob from his friends/give the Masonic call of distress/or whatever else there is and is shot dead.

Anyway. The dictionary quote pretty much seals the deal on this debate.

The comparison with Jesus was to point out not resisting. Even Stephen when he was stoned the only "fighting" back that he done was with scripture. When they grabbed him and took him out and started stoning him, he did not run or pick up rocks and throw them back. He started praying. There was no fighting back by him.

Matthew 5:39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Romans 12:17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

I Peter 4:15 Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;

Luke 6:29 " Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.

Romans 12:19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

When Daniel was thrown into the lions den did not fight back, but said he put his faith in God who would deliver him.

When Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-nego were going to be throw in the furnace by King Nebuchadnezzar they did not fight back, but put faith in God for their deliverance.

When looking back at Foxes Book of the Martyrs we find it full of martyrs who died for God and never lifted a hand against those that killed them because of their faith. As a matter of fact, they went singing praises to God and blessed His name for allowing them to be sent to their deaths as martyrs for Him.

In Evangelical circles we look at martyrs as ones that react the same as those of time past who did as the Bible instructed, turn the other cheeck and leave the vengeance to God.

In the Carthage jail shoutout Joseph Smith killed two men on his way down. This is not inline with what martyrs for God did. As the scriptures above show, fighting back is not something God expects us to do.

Here is what one of your past "prophets" (McConkie) had to say about murder:

"Thou shalt not kill." (Ex. 20:13.) "Thou shalt do no murder." (Matt. 19:18.) Murder, the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought or under such circumstances of criminality that the malice is presumed, "is a sin unto death" (1 John 5:16-17), a sin for which there is "no forgiveness" (D. & C. 42:79), meaning that a murderer can never gain salvation. "No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15.) He cannot join the Church by baptism; he is outside the pale of redeeming grace.​

Above you state that he grabbed the gun out of anger, fear, revenge, or whatever and that Joseph was known for his temper. This leads to the thought that its very possible what he done he done for the wrong reasons and was not the "lamb led to the slaughter" as he described himself.​

 

[silvermoon383]

Shootout? 4 men with 2 pistols in a confined space vs 200+ men with rifles surrounding them counts as a shootout? I doubt even Fox News would call such a lopsided masacre a shootout.

 

[ljam49]

1 Corinthians 7:1 "Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry"

1 Corinthians 7:8-9 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I


So we have gone from many wives, to one wife, to no wife....

What this has to do with Martyrdom I have no idea:run:

Open another thread if you want to discuss Joseph and his wife troubles. This thread is about whether or not Joseph was a martyr. Thanks

 

[McBell]

This thread is about whether or not Joseph was a martyr. Thanks

Really?
Seems to me that you have failed to present why the whole LDS religion needs take your Humpty Dumpty definition over the dictionary definition.

Especially when your own source reports that SOMETIMES they did not resist.

But then your OP has been answered by the LDS and the dictionary more than explains why they accept Joseph Smith as a martyr.

Your dslike of the facts, your dislike of your Humpty Dumpty definition being rejected, your dislike of your having had your arse handed to you in this thread, none of them change the facts.

 

[ljam49]

Really?
Seems to me that you have failed to present why the whole LDS religion needs take your Humpty Dumpty definition over the dictionary definition.

Especially when your own source reports that SOMETIMES they did not resist.

But then your OP has been answered by the LDS and the dictionary more than explains why they accept Joseph Smith as a martyr.

Your dslike of the facts, your dislike of your Humpty Dumpty definition being rejected, your dislike of your having had your arse handed to you in this thread, none of them change the facts.

If (and it has not) my arse had been handed to me it was not through your shallow, hollow, and weak responses. Your dislike of the truth simply because the definition says "sometimes" does not remove the fact that it is part of the definition. Just because a mormon wants to look at the opposite side of the definition does not void it either. Sometimes does not dismiss it. The way Joseph Smith responded to his martyrdom is not the same as those true Christians who gave their lives and did not take out vengance but left it in God's hands as he instructed Christians to do. But its all good. Considering your nothing more than a troll that follows religious forums and have nothing meaningful to add, your opinion or antagonism on the post means nothing to me. If you want to add something to op that is meaningful, maybe you can redeem yourself. I doubt it, but you are welcome to try.

 

[zomg]

In the Carthage jail shoutout Joseph Smith killed two men on his way down.

Not true.
Joseph Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph fired a gun - FAIRMormon

Here is what one of your past "prophets" (McConkie) had to say about murder:

I like the quotations marks. Also, McConkie was an Apostle - not a President of the Church/Prophet.

Above you state that he grabbed the gun out of anger, fear, revenge, or whatever and that Joseph was known for his temper. This leads to the thought that its very possible what he done he done for the wrong reasons and was not the "lamb led to the slaughter" as he described himself.​

Who knows for certain what he was feeling. I bet if he hadn't had a gun you would still find something about his death to complain about.

 

[McBell]

If (and it has not) my arse had been handed to me it was not through your shallow, hollow, and weak responses. Your dislike of the truth simply because the definition says "sometimes" does not remove the fact that it is part of the definition. Just because a mormon wants to look at the opposite side of the definition does not void it either. Sometimes does not dismiss it. The way Joseph Smith responded to his martyrdom is not the same as those true Christians who gave their lives and did not take out vengance but left it in God's hands as he instructed Christians to do. But its all good. Considering your nothing more than a troll that follows religious forums and have nothing meaningful to add, your opinion or antagonism on the post means nothing to me. If you want to add something to op that is meaningful, maybe you can redeem yourself. I doubt it, but you are welcome to try.

Now I am a troll?
Wow, your desperation has reached a new low.

Your OP has been answered.
In fact the answer appears in post #11.
All the rest of this thread is your refusal to accept an answer you dislike by pushing your preferred definition.
Hell you have not even presented any thing convincing to show how your preferred definition is the way to go.

Now you are merely grasping at straws.

 

[ljam49]

FireOfTheCovenant:

Not true.
Joseph Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph fired a gun - FAIRMormon

FAIR is mormon site that cannot give an objective and non-biased position.

I like the quotations marks. Also, McConkie was an Apostle - not a President of the Church/Prophet.

Heard this before. With mormonism the excuse of whether the writings are authorative give a wild card that is played over and over.

Who knows for certain what he was feeling.

What was stated as Josephs feelings came directly off of what you said. Do you remember that you stated this:

Then we have Joseph Smith. An imperfect man with human flaws. He sees his brother shot in the face and die. There's a gun nearby and in a rush of anger, fear, revenge, whatever, he snatches it up and shoots at the mob. BFD. Anyone familiar with Joseph Smith will know he had a temper.

I bet if he hadn't had a gun you would still find something about his death to complain about.

No, not really. His actions prove to me that he was not a martyr.