Joseph Smith Was Not A Martyr

[McBell]

That just a fabrication on your part. Having two definitions of one word does not cancel out the meaning of either. Maybe you should stop reading that story of humpty dumpty and move on up to some real books.

Present even one legitimate source, you know, like a DICTIONARY, that even hints that lack of resistance is a requirement for being a martyr.

I did notice how you already flat out ignored it when I presented this before.
So I'll not hold my breath for you to address this time either.

Upon further review I noticed that your reply is posted the same time as my edited version of the quoted post.
So I will concede the possibility that you did not get the edited version when you hit quote.

 

[ljam49]

Present even one legitimate source, you know, like a DICTIONARY, that even hints that lack of resistance is a requirement for being a martyr.

I did notice how you already flat out ignored it when I presented this before.
So I'll not hold my breath for you to address this time either.

Upon further review I noticed that your reply is posted the same time as my edited version of the quoted post.
So I will concede the possibility that you did not get the edited version when you hit quote.

This is what antagonist do best. Twist words. Your statement that I ever stated that resistance is a requirement is either a lack of reading skills or blatent disregard for what was posted. Either way its a fabrication.

 

[McBell]

This is what antagonist do best. Twist words. Your statement that I ever stated that resistance is a requirement is either a lack of reading skills or blatent disregard for what was posted. Either way its a fabrication.

You are the one who kept stressing that they not resist in order to be a martyr.
In fact you stated it numerous times.

You even went so far as to point out that none in that Fox's book resisted.

So I am not fabricating anything.
You however are being most dishonest.

 

[ljam49]

You are the one who kept stressing that they not resist in order to be a martyr.
In fact you stated it numerous times.

You even went so far as to point out that none in that Fox's book resisted.

So I am not fabricating anything.
You however are being most dishonest.

Again you are not being honest. I never said that it was a requirement not to fight back. Again, lets see if you can get it on the third try. I am very much saying that in the religious realm the first thoughts that martyrdom bring is someone that dies for their belief without fighting back. Evangelicals look at martyrdom that way. Wikipedia backs it up and you did not like that either so you made a smart remark about that. You asked for a definition from a dictionary, I gave it, you did not like it so you are the one trying to play phantom games here.

 

[arjay]

Read Foxes Book of The Martyrs. There is not one person in the whole book that fought back when dying for their belief in God. Guess I will have to take it that mormon martyrs are different martyrs than Christian martyrs.

Thanks for the suggestion. I think I'll start with pages 110-111, 122, 125-126, and 181.

 

[McBell]

Again you are not being honest. I never said that it was a requirement not to fight back. Again, lets see if you can get it on the third try. I am very much saying that in the religious realm the first thoughts that martyrdom bring is someone that dies for their belief without fighting back. Evangelicals look at martyrdom that way. Wikipedia backs it up and you did not like that either so you made a smart remark about that. You asked for a definition from a dictionary, I gave it, you did not like it so you are the one trying to play phantom games here.

YOU made the declaration that because Joseph Smith fought back, he is not a martyr.

YOU have stressed repeatedly in this thread that martyrs do not fight back.

You have not presented anything that supports your "because Joseph Smith fought back, he is not a martyr" claim other than your Humpty Dumpty definition.

You tried to use that which is in my signature to support your "because Joseph Smith fought back, he is not a martyr" claim. Perhaps you do not know the definition of "sometimes". Though I suspect that you will merely Humpty Dumpty that word as well.

 

[Sententia]

Look, I don't know you from adam, but if you think your smart remarks make me want to debate with you, they don't. Usually posters with that type of attitude don't have much of value to say anyway. I have not tried in any manner to be disrespectful to you.

Mestemia should never be generalized. What he has to say is usually always interesting and very valuable. (Although I may not always agree hee hee)

 

[logician]

I think we can take it as a matter of faith that LDS was a great leap of imagination.

 

[ljam49]

ljam...do you have any response to the definition or not?

Here is what I have already posted:

Main article: Christian Martry in Christianity, martyrs are considered to follow the example of Jesus in offering up their lives as a sacrifice to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven. The first Christain martyr was ( Saint Steven whose name means "crown"), and those who suffer martyrdom are said to have been "crowned".
In the context of church history, from the time of the persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire, being a martyr indicates a person who is killed for maintaining a religious belief, knowing that this will almost certainly result in imminent death (though without intentionally seeking death). Martyrs sometimes declined to defend themselves at all, in what they see as a reflection of Jesus' willing sacrifice. However, the definition of martyrdom is not specifically restricted to the Christian faith.
Some Christians view death in sectarian persecution as martyrdom. This view is typified by the accounts in Foxes Book Of The Martyrs.
Usage of "martyr" is also common among Arab Christians (i.e. anyone killed in relation to Christianity or a Christian community), indicating the persecution Arab Christians continue to experience to this day.

 

[Sententia]

So I read through the thread and blah...

My accepted definition of martyr is:

Somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief, usually religious.

So... Joe had some belief... I really don't think he died for refusing to renounce it... does anyone think that is the case?

My history of Joe may be off but I believe Joe indeed did speak out and say Yo!... All thine people that heareth me... I Joey the Prophet Smith have but one Wife and one Wife only!

Yet some newspaper had smith quoting god as saying all men were allowed to marry 10 virgins? (Why 10? I presume like me that Smith perhaps was fond of the binary system).

Nonetheless some chick Emma told Joe dude... peeps think your yeller... (yellow, coward). Smith took this personally and came back and turned himself in... he then was holed up in some local jail... Not trusting that god had his back and fearing death he had some of his homies smuggle in pistols... Sure enough a crowd came to lynch him. And he struck down with furious anger and fired his bullets but dude is not rambo and god did not steer the bullets clear of him like in pulp fiction.... Dude got shot... fell out a window.

So he was lynched... Not because he wouldn't renounce his faith but because he upset enough people to come to a jail and kill him... They were risking their lives too to put this fool down.

 

[ljam49]

So I read through the thread and blah...

My accepted definition of martyr is:



So... Joe had some belief... I really don't think he died for refusing to renounce it... does anyone think that is the case?

My history of Joe may be off but I believe Joe indeed did speak out and say Yo!... All thine people that heareth me... I Joey the Prophet Smith have but one Wife and one Wife only!

Yet some newspaper had smith quoting god as saying all men were allowed to marry 10 virgins? (Why 10? I presume like me that Smith perhaps was fond of the binary system).

Nonetheless some chick Emma told Joe dude... peeps think your yeller... (yellow, coward). Smith took this personally and came back and turned himself in... he then was holed up in some local jail... Not trusting that god had his back and fearing death he had some of his homies smuggle in pistols... Sure enough a crowd came to lynch him. And he struck down with furious anger and fired his bullets but dude is not rambo and god did not steer the bullets clear of him like in pulp fiction.... Dude got shot... fell out a window.

So he was lynched... Not because he wouldn't renounce his faith but because he upset enough people to come to a jail and kill him... They were risking their lives too to put this fool down.

That was seriously funny. Thanks much for that.

 

[McBell]

Here is what I have already posted:

Main article: Christian Martry in Christianity, martyrs are considered to follow the example of Jesus in offering up their lives as a sacrifice to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven. The first Christain martyr was ( Saint Steven whose name means "crown"), and those who suffer martyrdom are said to have been "crowned".
In the context of church history, from the time of the persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire, being a martyr indicates a person who is killed for maintaining a religious belief, knowing that this will almost certainly result in imminent death (though without intentionally seeking death). Martyrs sometimes declined to defend themselves at all, in what they see as a reflection of Jesus' willing sacrifice. However, the definition of martyrdom is not specifically restricted to the Christian faith.
Some Christians view death in sectarian persecution as martyrdom. This view is typified by the accounts in Foxes Book Of The Martyrs.
Usage of "martyr" is also common among Arab Christians (i.e. anyone killed in relation to Christianity or a Christian community), indicating the persecution Arab Christians continue to experience to this day.

so you seriously do not understand how the word in red "sometimes" hurts the declaration you made in your OP?

 

[ljam49]

so you seriously do not understand how the word in red "sometimes" hurts the declaration you made in your OP?

You wanted a definition that backed up what martyr meant. I gave it. This is not a post that now reverts to the word sometimes. I have made it very clear that in Evagelical circles the word martyr brings to mind someone who dies for their faith without fighting back. This definition says the same thing, only stating sometimes. This is not about whether it is sometimes, but whether it is viewed in the manner stated. And it is. This has now just turned into a "mine is bigger than yours" playground game.

 

[McBell]

This has now just turned into a "mine is bigger than yours" playground game.

I disagree.
You are still solely dependent upon everyone accepting your Humpty Dumpty definition.
Seems to me that your argument has been completely destroyed.

You refusal to let it die is your problem.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You wanted a definition that backed up what martyr meant. I gave it. This is not a post that now reverts to the word sometimes. I have made it very clear that in Evagelical circles the word martyr brings to mind someone who dies for their faith without fighting back.

I'm not sure why the Evangelical use of the term would be necessarily relevant. Mormons (like the majority of Christians) are not Evangelicals. Or rather, they do evangelize, but they're not part of the Evangelical Protestant movement.

Evangelical circles are not the be-all and end-all of Christianity. I agree that often and in several Christian denominations, the word "martyr" is usually taken to imply a passive acceptance of death, but in other situations this wasn't necessarily the case.

There are other common definitions of "martyr" that allow for active resistance on the part of a martyr. For instance, in most forms of Islam, a person who dies literally defending the faith (i.e. someone who most certainly fights back) is considered a martyr.

I think it's not so much a matter of whether Joseph Smith meets your usage of the term "martyr"; you've made it clear that he doesn't. It's a matter of whether he meets some reasonable definition of the term. Personally, I can see why Mormons consider him a martyr.

 

[Father Heathen]

Looks like the Mormons have the dictionary on their side in this case. It's wacky that this narrow redefining of a word, in a feeble and thinly veiled attempt to discredit the faith of fellow Christians, has reached 6 pages.

Peas in a pod, son.

 

[zomg]

ljam49,

There is one thing in your posting on this topic that is interesting. I've noticed you say, in your opinion, that Joseph Smith was not a martyr. You then go on to compare his impending death to that of Jesus Christ. This strikes me as odd.

Any man compared to Jesus Christ will come up short. Jesus Christ is divine, the Son of God, the only perfect person. Of course he didn't fight back. He is the Savior, the sacrifice for all mankind. He knew it was time for his death. I wouldn't expect him to fight back. Other instances when attempts were made on his life he would disappear and escape the danger.

Then we have Joseph Smith. An imperfect man with human flaws. He sees his brother shot in the face and die. There's a gun nearby and in a rush of anger, fear, revenge, whatever, he snatches it up and shoots at the mob. BFD. Anyone familiar with Joseph Smith will know he had a temper.

Then he runs to the window to escape/flee to draw the mob from his friends/give the Masonic call of distress/or whatever else there is and is shot dead.

Anyway. The dictionary quote pretty much seals the deal on this debate.

 

[zomg]

So... Joe had some belief... I really don't think he died for refusing to renounce it... does anyone think that is the case?

My history of Joe may be off but I believe Joe indeed did speak out and say Yo!... All thine people that heareth me... I Joey the Prophet Smith have but one Wife and one Wife only!

Yet some newspaper had smith quoting god as saying all men were allowed to marry 10 virgins? (Why 10? I presume like me that Smith perhaps was fond of the binary system).

Nonetheless some chick Emma told Joe dude... peeps think your yeller... (yellow, coward). Smith took this personally and came back and turned himself in... he then was holed up in some local jail... Not trusting that god had his back and fearing death he had some of his homies smuggle in pistols... Sure enough a crowd came to lynch him. And he struck down with furious anger and fired his bullets but dude is not rambo and god did not steer the bullets clear of him like in pulp fiction.... Dude got shot... fell out a window.

So he was lynched... Not because he wouldn't renounce his faith but because he upset enough people to come to a jail and kill him... They were risking their lives too to put this fool down.

Just wanted to say I found this to be funny

 

[no-body]

I had a feeling this was going to get down to semantics on what exactly the word martyr is.

Then we have Joseph Smith. An imperfect man with human flaws. He sees his brother shot in the face and die. There's a gun nearby and in a rush of anger, fear, revenge, whatever, he snatches it up and shoots at the mob. BFD. Anyone familiar with Joseph Smith will know he had a temper.

Then he runs to the window to escape/flee to draw the mob from his friends/give the Masonic call of distress/or whatever else there is and is shot dead.

Anyway. The dictionary quote pretty much seals the deal on this debate.

This makes me realize I really have no idea how LDS view Joseph Smith even after reading several things on him. Obviously it's not like Muslims view Mohamed, but is he still revered as a prophet of God, chosen for some special reason?

The problem with the mob thing is this wasn't the first time Smith fled from prosecution, I've read he was quite used to fleeing from his creditors.

 

[zomg]

I had a feeling this was going to get down to semantics on what exactly the word martyr is.

That's what always happens with this question

This makes me realize I really have no idea how LDS view Joseph Smith even after reading several things on him. Obviously it's not like Muslims view Mohamed, but is he still revered as a prophet of God, chosen for some special reason?

The problem with the mob thing is this wasn't the first time Smith fled from prosecution, I've read he was quite used to fleeing from his creditors.

Because he wasn't perfect? None of the prophets were perfect people. Obviously we are more aware of Joseph Smith's imperfections because he lived less than 200 years ago.

I hear Moses liked to kick puppies on his bad days