Joshua - The Christ View of Jesus.

[2ndpillar]

That's illogical nonsense as this was written in the late 1st century whereas Constantine didn't convert until the 4th century. If your church teaches you such bigotry, then maybe look for a church that doesn't stoop so low.

Constantine's two horns like a lamb, Peter and Paul, supposedly wrote in the 1st century. It was these 1st century traditions of men, which were put into the present-day general accepted NT canon, which was codified in 367 A.D. by Athanasius, a coconspirator of Constantine in forming the false Trinity doctrine in 325 A.D. If your church doesn't teach history, you could probably just go to a library and find a good book on the history of Constantine.

 

[2ndpillar]

The challenge is to find evidence of "eternal death" in Tanach.

Death is found in the "Tanach". The rising of the dead, per Ezekiel 37, was relegated to "the whole house of Israel", which would include both Judah and Ephraim. You need to prove via the "Tanach", that others were to rise from the grave. The only evidence is that you have a 7-day Feast of Booths week, and yet have an 8th day feast of fire component. What does the 8th fire component day foretell?

Leviticus 23: 36 For seven days you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the eighth day you are to hold a sacred assembly and present an offering made by fire to the LORD. It is a solemn assembly; you must not do any regular work.

 

[metis]

Constantine's two horns like a lamb, Peter and Paul, supposedly wrote in the 1st century. It was these 1st century traditions of men, which were put into the present-day general accepted NT canon, which was codified in 367 A.D. by Athanasius, a coconspirator of Constantine in forming the false Trinity doctrine in 325 A.D. If your church doesn't teach history, you could probably just go to a library and find a good book on the history of Constantine.

Your bigotry has overwhelmed even the most basic logic as we're dealing with centuries of separation between when Revelation was written and when Constantine converted to Christianity. And I've studied and taught Church history at both the church synagogue level, btw.

Maybe look for a church that drops the bigotry, teaches even the most basic history of Christianity, and also teaches basic Judeo-Christian morals. Write what you want back, but your nonsense above reminds me of why I left the church I did decades ago, and it turns my stomach.

 

[dybmh]

Death is found in the "Tanach". The rising of the dead, per Ezekiel 37, was relegated to "the whole house of Israel", which would include both Judah and Ephraim. You need to prove via the "Tanach", that others were to rise from the grave. The only evidence is that you have a 7-day Feast of Booths week, and yet have an 8th day feast of fire component. What does the 8th fire component day foretell?

Leviticus 23: 36 For seven days you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the eighth day you are to hold a sacred assembly and present an offering made by fire to the LORD. It is a solemn assembly; you must not do any regular work.

Eternal death is the challenge, not mortal death. But thank you for the reply none the less.

 

[2ndpillar]

Eternal death is the challenge, not mortal death. But thank you for the reply none the less.

Unless one rises from the dead, they are eternally dead, and may simply be food for the worms, which may live on, but not with the consciousness of the dead. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

 

[2ndpillar]

Your bigotry has overwhelmed even the most basic logic as we're dealing with centuries of separation between when Revelation was written and when Constantine converted to Christianity. And I've studied and taught Church history at both the church synagogue level, btw.

Maybe look for a church that drops the bigotry, teaches even the most basic history of Christianity, and also teaches basic Judeo-Christian morals. Write what you want back, but your nonsense above reminds me of why I left the church I did decades ago, and it turns my stomach.

Yeah, I guess historical facts are bigotry. Why not call it racist as well? Constantine never converted to "Christianity". He convened the Council of Nicaea to solidify his empire. That Eusebius would write that Constantine was baptized on his death bed, by supposedly a onetime leader of the excommunicated Arians, Eusebius himself, does not make that even true. In Eusebius writings, he said that he wrote whatever was good for the church, despite being true or not. As for how "many" people are lead down the wide path to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), it doesn't give credence to the message. Calling me names is not the basis of logic. I think they have another name for that. But when you can't win a debate, then begin name calling, and boasting of your wisdom and intelligence (Matthew 11:25). Not a good path.

 

[BilliardsBall]

And you actually believe in that bigoted canard that's supposedly a reference to the Catholic Church? I grew up listening to and reading trash like that in the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up in, thus leaving that church in my mid-20's.

It doesn't make one iota of sense if one does their homework and then thinks it through.

My understanding from scripture is that the Pope as the False Prophet will support the coming Antichrist. The homework done was to carefully check the scriptures--and when I read them to people, they realize its Rome as well.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Respectfully , please see your words below.



____________________________________________



Same challenge for "Hell is eternal", I dont think that comes from Tanach. But I could be wrong.

I understand, but there are two issues:

1) Following the Law of the Hebrew scriptures does little to get me to show true love to others, build God's kingdom larger, etc.

2) There are hundreds of obvious and subtle prophecies of Yeshua in the Hebrew scriptures--because they are so obvious, our Jewish people have to twist the scriptures--for example, saying Hezekiah is a counselor who is eternal and the prince of peace, etc. Therefore, there are about two prophecies of Messiah most Jewish people know, and hundreds that the Christians know and enjoy. There's a forest, I hope you can see the trees someday.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Paul's gospel of Grace/cross is to have the law nailed to the cross. Yeshua's gospel of the kingdom is to have the tares, those who commit lawlessness" (Matthew 13:40-41), cast into the furnace of fire. One is antithetical to the other. As for Peter and Paul, they are the "shepherds" taken to "pasture the flock doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7), who were named "Favor", because of Paul's false gospel of grace, and Peter called "Cords", because of several reasons, most obviously with regard to his manner of death. The other reason being that Peter's vision ended up separating Judah and Israel/Ephrain by newly imposed traditions (Zechariah 11:10-17 & 13:3-7)

But we can go through the teachings of Peter, Paul (and Jude, James, John in the NT, etc.) and see that they agree 100% with Yeshua's teachings and vice versa.

I don't for a moment believe that everyone on Earth who adores Yeshua is in horrible doctrine except for a few who reject most of the NT.

 

[metis]

My understanding from scripture is that the Pope as the False Prophet will support the coming Antichrist. The homework done was to carefully check the scriptures--and when I read them to people, they realize its Rome as well.

And this is what your church teaches you? This is an old canard that makes all so little sense, and I was brought up in such a church and left it in my mid-20's when I realized I was being lied to on this and some other things as well.

The is the "Bishop of Rome", one of thousands of bishops in thousands of dioceses currently and historically, thus he is not dictator of the Church. Even when speaking "ex cathedra", which is only been used twice in almost 2000 years, he must work in conjunction with the bishops.

So, if you think I'm wrong, then prove to us that the popes are "false prophets" and that they support the "anti-Christ". [btw, it should be "anti-Christs"]

 

[2ndpillar]

But we can go through the teachings of Peter, Paul (and Jude, James, John in the NT, etc.) and see that they agree 100% with Yeshua's teachings and vice versa.

I don't for a moment believe that everyone on Earth who adores Yeshua is in horrible doctrine except for a few who reject most of the NT.

Truth is not dependent on what BilliardsBall believes, or what the false prophet Paul, or the "worthless shepherd", Peter (Zechariah 11:17), might have said. The "many" of Matthew 7:13-25 believe in the wide path of the false prophets, which leads to "destruction". On the other hand, according to Yeshua in Matthew 13:41-42, those who "commit lawlessness", such as the followers of the false prophet Paul, and his false gospel of grace/cross, they will find their destination to be "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), and after Jacob's distress, the great tribulation, the nations, who survive (Zechariah 14:9), will have to confess, "our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood" (Jeremiah 16:19). After the great tribulation, if one survives, they may change their minds and 10 men from differing nations will grab the garb of a Jew, and say, "God is with you" (Zechariah 8:23). At that time, the nations/Gentiles, will be ruled by a "rod of iron" (Revelation 19:15).

 

[2ndpillar]

My understanding from scripture is that the Pope as the False Prophet will support the coming Antichrist. The homework done was to carefully check the scriptures--and when I read them to people, they realize its Rome as well.

Actually, many of the "Christians" call the "another" king, who follows the 10 horns, the initial 10 Augustus Caesars of Rome (Daniel 7:24-25), as the "Antichrist". According to John, there were many antichrists. That "another" king was the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17, the 7th head, and that "another" king was Constantine, who established the false Trinity dogma of the Roman Catholic Church through his convened Council of Nicaea. We are now in the era of the 8th head (Revelation 17). Constantine attempted to "make alterations" in the law (Daniel 7:25) through his position as Roman Emperor, and as Pontifex Maximus, the keeper of the gods, by way of Julius Caesar, the 5th head of the beast, who was also a Pontifex Maximus. The pope now holds that position, supposedly by way of Peter (Isaiah 22:15-25), who was the "worthless shepherd" chosen by the LORD to "pasture the flock doomed for slaughter, the "Christian" church (Zechariah 11:10). Peter and Paul comprise the two horns like a lamb (Revelation 13:11) upon whom Constantine built his Roman church. The Gentile church, the adulteress wife, bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, will remain in place for many days, and then Israel will "seek" "the LORD their God and David their king" (Hosea 3). The days of the "adulteress wife" are coming to an end, and the holder of the keys of David, the pope, will "fall", and those "hanging" on to him will be "cut off" (Isaiah 22:25). In "that day", the day of the LORD (Joel 2:32), is upon us. The pope is simply a leader among many, who is led by the "demon spirits" of the false prophet, the devil, and the beast (Revelation 16:13). As for the Protestant churches, they are daughters of the Roman church, and like mother, like daughter.

 

[dybmh]

I understand, but there are two issues:

1) Following the Law of the Hebrew scriptures does little to get me to show true love to others, build God's kingdom larger, etc.

Leviticus 19:9-18 ?

2) There are hundreds of obvious and subtle prophecies of Yeshua in the Hebrew scriptures--because they are so obvious, our Jewish people have to twist the scriptures--for example, saying Hezekiah is a counselor who is eternal and the prince of peace, etc. Therefore, there are about two prophecies of Messiah most Jewish people know, and hundreds that the Christians know and enjoy. There's a forest, I hope you can see the trees someday.

For me, when I read the NT, I find too many dealbreakers to believe that your yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. In conversations with followers of Jesus I find that they simply don't know the law or the Torah well enough to recognize these dealbreakers. One example I offered early in this thread. Joshua's message to the Jewish people was "above all follow all that is written in the Book of Law". This doesn't match the NT where Jesus is quoted saying "Your work is to believe in the one who was sent".

Another example: The NT quote Jesus encouraging deception :"Be wise a serpents and innocent as doves". But in the book of Psalms it says "one who practices deceit will not be established".

 

[BilliardsBall]

And this is what your church teaches you? This is an old canard that makes all so little sense, and I was brought up in such a church and left it in my mid-20's when I realized I was being lied to on this and some other things as well.

The is the "Bishop of Rome", one of thousands of bishops in thousands of dioceses currently and historically, thus he is not dictator of the Church. Even when speaking "ex cathedra", which is only been used twice in almost 2000 years, he must work in conjunction with the bishops.

So, if you think I'm wrong, then prove to us that the popes are "false prophets" and that they support the "anti-Christ". [btw, it should be "anti-Christs"]

A simple reading of the relevant passages in Revelation indicate Rome.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually, many of the "Christians" call the "another" king, who follows the 10 horns, the initial 10 Augustus Caesars of Rome (Daniel 7:24-25), as the "Antichrist". According to John, there were many antichrists. That "another" king was the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17, the 7th head, and that "another" king was Constantine, who established the false Trinity dogma of the Roman Catholic Church through his convened Council of Nicaea. We are now in the era of the 8th head (Revelation 17). Constantine attempted to "make alterations" in the law (Daniel 7:25) through his position as Roman Emperor, and as Pontifex Maximus, the keeper of the gods, by way of Julius Caesar, the 5th head of the beast, who was also a Pontifex Maximus. The pope now holds that position, supposedly by way of Peter (Isaiah 22:15-25), who was the "worthless shepherd" chosen by the LORD to "pasture the flock doomed for slaughter, the "Christian" church (Zechariah 11:10). Peter and Paul comprise the two horns like a lamb (Revelation 13:11) upon whom Constantine built his Roman church. The Gentile church, the adulteress wife, bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, will remain in place for many days, and then Israel will "seek" "the LORD their God and David their king" (Hosea 3). The days of the "adulteress wife" are coming to an end, and the holder of the keys of David, the pope, will "fall", and those "hanging" on to him will be "cut off" (Isaiah 22:25). In "that day", the day of the LORD (Joel 2:32), is upon us. The pope is simply a leader among many, who is led by the "demon spirits" of the false prophet, the devil, and the beast (Revelation 16:13). As for the Protestant churches, they are daughters of the Roman church, and like mother, like daughter.

Each King dominated Israel:

1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Persia
5. Greece
6. Rome

The 7th "is of the 6th" - Rome.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Truth is not dependent on what BilliardsBall believes, or what the false prophet Paul, or the "worthless shepherd", Peter (Zechariah 11:17), might have said. The "many" of Matthew 7:13-25 believe in the wide path of the false prophets, which leads to "destruction". On the other hand, according to Yeshua in Matthew 13:41-42, those who "commit lawlessness", such as the followers of the false prophet Paul, and his false gospel of grace/cross, they will find their destination to be "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), and after Jacob's distress, the great tribulation, the nations, who survive (Zechariah 14:9), will have to confess, "our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood" (Jeremiah 16:19). After the great tribulation, if one survives, they may change their minds and 10 men from differing nations will grab the garb of a Jew, and say, "God is with you" (Zechariah 8:23). At that time, the nations/Gentiles, will be ruled by a "rod of iron" (Revelation 19:15).

From both testaments, lawlessness is sinlessness, not teaching salvation by faith. Both testaments teach salvation by faith, "Those who have faith in the Lord or as Mount Zion, which cannot be moved, but abides forever."

 

[BilliardsBall]

Leviticus 19:9-18 ?

For me, when I read the NT, I find too many dealbreakers to believe that your yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. In conversations with followers of Jesus I find that they simply don't know the law or the Torah well enough to recognize these dealbreakers. One example I offered early in this thread. Joshua's message to the Jewish people was "above all follow all that is written in the Book of Law". This doesn't match the NT where Jesus is quoted saying "Your work is to believe in the one who was sent".

Another example: The NT quote Jesus encouraging deception :"Be wise a serpents and innocent as doves". But in the book of Psalms it says "one who practices deceit will not be established".

Leviticus was written by Yeshua and is a good start to righteousness.

Are you trusting in the Law or the One who gave the Law?

It doesn't say "be deceitful like a serpent" but "be wise". Proverbs et al tells us to gain wisdom for in it is life eternal.

 

[2ndpillar]

From both testaments, lawlessness is sinlessness, not teaching salvation by faith. Both testaments teach salvation by faith, "Those who have faith in the Lord or as Mount Zion, which cannot be moved, but abides forever."

You appear to have entered the dimension of George Orwell's 1984. Good is not evil, and evil is not good. In the real world, those who "commit lawlessness" (Matthew 13:41), actually are sinning, such as breaking the law, whether bearing false witness against their neighbor, or coveting their neighbors' goods, which is apparently the foundational policy of socialist theocracy, founded on a godless/lawless world view. The "faith" of Abraham was based on action/works (James 3:21-24). As for "Mount Zion", the mountain of God, no one worships from that mountain apart from keep the law and keeping the Sabbath (Isaiah 56:6).

 

[2ndpillar]

Leviticus was written by Yeshua and is a good start to righteousness.

Are you trusting in the Law or the One who gave the Law?

It doesn't say "be deceitful like a serpent" but "be wise". Proverbs et al tells us to gain wisdom for in it is life eternal.

The beginning of wisdom is to fear God. Proverb 9:10

New American Standard Bible Ecclesiates 12:13-14
The conclusion, when everything has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil.…

And Yeshua did not write the Law. The Law (10 Commandments/Words) were written by the hand of God, and the original Leviticus was passed down by oral tradition, and not by script. The "Word of God" had a beginning, God does not.

 

[metis]

A simple reading of the relevant passages in Revelation indicate Rome.

Again, that makes 0 sense and for more than one reason. Maybe seek a church that ain't so bigoted and twisted if this is what they're teaching you.