Judaism and Supplemental Material

[Jayhawker Soule]

I do not fabricate. I did it because ...

 

[Harel13]

I am not that desperate that's why I said I won't stress it forward

Okay, I'll re-phrase. Why are you interested in becoming Jewish?

 

[Swede01]

Okay, I'll re-phrase. Why are you interested in becoming Jewish?

There are several reasons for it

 

[Harel13]

There are several reasons for it

And are you willing to divulge those reasons?

 

[Rival]

And are you willing to divulge those reasons?

Bentching, Shacharit is too short, toiveling, paying your shul fee, eating cardboard etc.

j/k of course.

 

[Swede01]

And are you willing to divulge those reasons?

I could go on for a very long time with that but I want you to have some free time Mr

 

[Harel13]

I could go on for a very long time with that but I won't you to have some free time Mr

I'll be fine. I'm on break from university right now. Try me.

 

[Rival]

I could go on for a very long time with that but I won't you to have some free time Mr

There are many good reasons to want to convert. Perhaps you could share just a few?

 

[Swede01]

Well yes

There are many good reasons to want to convert. Perhaps you could share just a few?

I could name like five reasons right now and then talk for a bit but I have since Grade 7 (In Sweden you are 14/15 in Grade 7) wanted to convert. I got my first real understanding of judaism then but then I took a break from thinking about it for like two years due to the risk of being picked on for my beliefs

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑
But how can modern scientific discovers also appear to have proven the Rambam's position correct? Because that's like saying that scientific discovers also appear to have proven that God either does or doesn't exist.

Please be aware that the Hebrew Tanakh does not use the word "god." The words used don't mean what the English word god means.

In terms of what has been shown to be reality in our generation. See the following:

Well, I really wouldn't consider something on the tv show "The View" to be scientific proof that the demons and magic and the supernatural don't exist. And the beginning of the Charles Ramsey video looked like nonsense, however, I will watch the PBS and the TEDx videos since I have gotten interesting information from those channels before, however, I would like to ask you: What scientific discovers have actually proven that God exists?

 

[David Davidovich]

@Ehav4Ever, I have one final thing to ask you about. However, I would have to post a link to a video that called into question several aspects of the Tanakh, and I would like to know if there is a different meaning of these things that the Jews have and/or if the oral stories and the Hebrew text explains these things differently. Also, I'll give this link starting at 3:25 since the first part of the video discusses Leviathan. Plus, you can just ignore the references that he makes about Christianity.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, I really wouldn't consider something on the tv show "The View" to be scientific proof that the demons and magic and the supernatural don't exist. And the beginning of the Charles Ramsey video looked like nonsense, however, I will watch the PBS and the TEDx videos since I have gotten interesting information from those channels before, however, I would like to ask you: What scientific discovers have actually proven that God exists?

I never said the "The View" was scentific proof about demons, magic, and the supernatural. I provided a number of psychics who failed when their claims were put to the test publically. I also included other information besides that one video from a psychic who failed while he was a guest on the View.

in any case the vast majority of Jews, Torath Mosheh or not, are not influenced by demons, magic, and supernatural stuff - especially the stuff that has no proven repeatability. So, if the Rambam's view is the opposite of what the rest of the world is currently experiencing I am perfectly fine wih it being just a Jewish thing. Though, I am not sure I am wrong that most of the world isn't being plagued by demons, being run by magic, or what westerners would call the supernatural.

In terms of your question of what scietiic discoveries have actually prove that God exists. Again, you have to remember I don't beleive in the concept of a "God" so I can't speak what has been proven or disproven about that concept. You may have to make your question more specific to what I do hold by.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

@Ehav4Ever, I have one final thing to ask you about. However, I would have to post a link to a video that called into question several aspects of the Tanakh, and I would like to know if there is a different meaning of these things that the Jews have and/or if the oral stories and the Hebrew text explains these things differently. Also, I'll give this link starting at 3:25 since the first part of the video discusses Leviathan. Plus, you can just ignore the references that he makes about Christianity.

I watched it. I had to skip around in the video and again, because I didn't see what would be required for me to even pay much attention to his claims. In short, what he presented doesn't have anything to do with Torath Mosheh – from start to finish what he was actually discussing was the Christian bible and Christian understandings of their bible.

In order for what he is talking about to do with Torath Mosheh he would first have to pull out the Hebrew text, read it straight from the text in what we Jews call Peshat (The simple meaning of the Hebrew, the spellings, the grammar) and then explain, in Hebrew and Aramaic, what all ancient Jewish sources - from across Jewish communities say – which means explanations about what the text is saying which is Remez, Derash, and Sod.

If someone can’t do that I can't regard what they are talking about very highly. By like token, I studied electrical engineering in university and if someone wanted to claim they could explain Physics to me but they didn’t know Calculus I would ignore them.

 

[David Davidovich]

I never said the "The View" was scentific proof about demons, magic, and the supernatural. I provided a number of psychics who failed when their claims were put to the test publically. I also included other information besides that one video from a psychic who failed while he was a guest on the View.

I'm not really sure how psychics failing public tests is any kind of proof that demons, magic, and the supernatural doesn't exist. But if that is proof to you, then so be it.

in any case the vast majority of Jews, Torath Mosheh or not, are not influenced by demons, magic, and supernatural stuff - especially the stuff that has no proven repeatability.

But how can you say that for sure, if you don't believe in stuff like that? However, that just seems more like you opinion.

So, if the Rambam's view is the opposite of what the rest of the world is currently experiencing I am perfectly fine wih it being just a Jewish thing. Though, I am not sure I am wrong that most of the world isn't being plagued by demons, being run by magic, or what westerners would call the supernatural.

I see.

In terms of your question of what scietiic discoveries have actually prove that God exists. Again, you have to remember I don't beleive in the concept of a "God" so I can't speak what has been proven or disproven about that concept. You may have to make your question more specific to what I do hold by.

So, what scientific discoveries have actually proven that Hashem exists?

 

[David Davidovich]

I watched it. I had to skip around in the video and again, because I didn't see what would be required for me to even pay much attention to his claims. In short, what he presented doesn't have anything to do with Torath Mosheh – from start to finish what he was actually discussing was the Christian bible and Christian understandings of their bible.

Actually, that doesn't sound like you watched the video. However, I will go through it again and take cliff notes on the parts that pertain to Torath Mosheh.

In order for what he is talking about to do with Torath Mosheh he would first have to pull out the Hebrew text, read it straight from the text in what we Jews call Peshat (The simple meaning of the Hebrew, the spellings, the grammar) and then explain, in Hebrew and Aramaic, what all ancient Jewish sources - from across Jewish communities say – which means explanations about what the text is saying which is Remez, Derash, and Sod.

Okay, well, I'll tell you what Hebrew scriptures he was pointing out and what they mean to him, and if you don't mind, could you tell me what those verses mean to Torath Mosheh Jews? But I'll be back in amout 20 minutes or so.

 

[David Davidovich]

It looks like I may have gotten two of his videos mixed up and there was information in both videos that I was curious about. So, apparently, I was in a hurry and tried to take shortcuts and messed up. However, I truly apologize about that.

But in the video that I linked, I meant to link it at 4:28 where he discusses:

1) Numbers 21 and the brass serpent that Moses put on a pole. But if you skip to 6:07 he compares the snake on the pole to symbols in Greek mythology such as the wand of Hermes and the healer in Greek mythology, Asclepius who also used a similar symbol. And I figure that you would say that this occurred first in the Hebrew text, however, even if it did, why would Moses even use a snake on a pole (and which is reminiscent of the serpent in Eden. which is related to the worship of Hashem?

2) And then if you skip to 7:06, he discusses what appears to be the use of magic and hallucinations in the Torah at Numbers 5:2-24 where if a woman is accused of adultery, curses are written on a scroll and then the ink that was used in the writings of these curses are washed off with bitter water, and the accused woman is told to drink it. And if she is guilty of the accused crime, she will get sick and her belly will swell, and in some Christian Bible literal translations in verse 22, it says that the drink will enter her bowels and her tight will fall off. However, in many Christian translation, that verse is rendered as the woman actually having a miscarriage. However, since it was the curse that caused this, it could actually be viewed as an abortion.

Therefore, what is the Torath Mosheh Jewish viewpoint of those verses, and why in the world are written curses and the drinking of bitter water even involved in something like this in the Torah, according to the Torath Mosheh viewpoint?

Also, the narrator compares this to the exact same method described in ancient Egyptian medical texts.

3) But if skip to 8:58, he mentions how in Exodus 7:11, Moses holds up his staff in the air during Israel's battle with the Amalekites, and whenever Moses lowered his arms in fatigue, the Amalekites would start winning. But then when two other individuals prop up Moses arms, then Israel starts to win. Also, the narrator compares that to what is called sympathetic magic:

In many traditions of magic, both older and modern, the concept of sympathetic magic plays a crucial role. The idea behind sympathetic magic is, at its core, that a person can be affected magically by actions performed towards something that represents them.

click here: What Is Sympathetic Magic? (learnreligions.com)

And then the narrator uses the example of Ezekiel 4:1-3.

4) And then skip to 10:12 and 10:44 where he mentions 2 Kings 3:14-16 and altered states of consciousness and compared it to Shamanic traditions around the world.

5) But then you need to skip to 14:46 where he makes the claim that Apocalypsism wasn't mentioned in the Hebrew text until you get to the book of Daniel and was therefore influenced by Zoroastrism. Plus, he used other examples in the Torah and the Tanakh including Numbers 19:11 and the book of Leviticus.

6) And finally click on 18:35 where he mentions Zoroastrian influence and Zechariah 4:10-11 and the 7 eyes of Yahweh. However, he does mention the book of Revelation in conjunction with that.

But that's about it. The rest of the video discusses the influence of Zoroastrian on Christianity.

But there's another video where he discusses what he called Jacob's Pillar and Genesis 28:18, however, I will have to ask about that at another time.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm not really sure how psychics failing public tests is any kind of proof that demons, magic, and the supernatural doesn't exist. But if that is proof to you, then so be it.

As a Torath Mosheh Jew, psychics failing to live up to their claims is proof to me that they are unreliable and it helps strengthen the Torah probibition we Jews have to stay away from them. If the world at large wants to accept that level of reliability that is up to the world at large. Though, I don't see most modern people finding any use for them.

In terms of demons, because the vast of the majority of Jewish world is not plagued by what "westerners" call demons I can pretty much say we Jews don't have to worry about that. In fact, those rabbis who did say (שדים) were something supernatural also claimed that when Jews keep Torah (שדים) would have no influence on Torath Mosheh Jews. So, we Torath Mosheh Jews can be comfortable in that area also.

In terms of magic, again whatever that means, Jews have Torah and have no use for no matter how someone in the world wants to define it - epecially if it has no effective repeatability and leads someone down an illogicial path. In terms of supernatural, again I have been no comprehensive defintion to define what "exactly" is supernatural so we can write that one off. Again, what is accepted in the non-Torah based world under all those terms are up to how that world wants to define them and work within their understandings of such.

But how can you say that for sure, if you don't believe in stuff like that? However, that just seems more like you opinion.

As a Torath Mosheh Jew I am required to be skeptical. So, if someone wants to provide me with some proof that has a high level of repeatability then they can go for it.

So, what scientific discoveries have actually proven that Hashem exists?

Given that Hashem, according to Torath Mosheh, is the Source of reality and is not human, has no emotions, is not human-like, does not change, has no human form of thought, has no physical form, never self-defined by the English term "god", did not create the concept of religion, etc. for me pretty much the following.

*Big bang theory
*Space-time
*Thermodynamics
*Galatic year, etc.

The following video may help understand what I mean.

Please note: proof is often subjective.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Actually, that doesn't sound like you watched the video. However, I will go through it again and take cliff notes on the parts that pertain to Torath Mosheh.

Okay, well, I'll tell you what Hebrew scriptures he was pointing out and what they mean to him, and if you don't mind, could you tell me what those verses mean to Torath Mosheh Jews? But I'll be back in amout 20 minutes or so.

I watched the video. He didn't quote anything in Hebrew from a Hebrew text. Meaning he didn't take a Hebrew text and read it. Below is a Hebrew text of the Torah. He didn't read one these.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, well, I'll tell you what Hebrew scriptures he was pointing out and what they mean to him

He was actually pointing out what he thinks the English Christian bible means. He wasn't reading from the Hebrew Tanakh nor was he referencing anything that he derived from the Hebrew Tanakh. The below is an example of what I mean by reading from the Hebrew Torah.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

It looks like I may have gotten two of his videos mixed up and there was information in both videos that I was curious about. So, apparently, I was in a hurry and tried to take shortcuts and messed up. However, I truly apologize about that.

But in the video that I linked, I meant to link it at 4:28 where he discusses:

1) Numbers 21 and the brass serpent that Moses put on a pole. But if you skip to 6:07 he compares the snake on the pole to symbols in Greek mythology such as the wand of Hermes and the healer in Greek mythology, Asclepius who also used a similar symbol. And I figure that you would say that this occurred first in the Hebrew text, however, even if it did, why would Moses even use a snake on a pole (and which is reminiscent of the serpent in Eden. which is related to the worship of Hashem?

2) And then if you skip to 7:06, he discusses what appears to be the use of magic and hallucinations in the Torah at Numbers 5:2-24 where if a woman is accused of adultery, curses are written on a scroll and then the ink that was used in the writings of these curses are washed off with bitter water, and the accused woman is told to drink it. And if she is guilty of the accused crime, she will get sick and her belly will swell, and in some Christian Bible literal translations in verse 22, it says that the drink will enter her bowels and her tight will fall off. However, in many Christian translation, that verse is rendered as the woman actually having a miscarriage. However, since it was the curse that caused this, it could actually be viewed as an abortion.

Therefore, what is the Torath Mosheh Jewish viewpoint of those verses, and why in the world are written curses and the drinking of bitter water even involved in something like this in the Torah, according to the Torath Mosheh viewpoint?

Also, the narrator compares this to the exact same method described in ancient Egyptian medical texts.

3) But if skip to 8:58, he mentions how in Exodus 7:11, Moses holds up his staff in the air during Israel's battle with the Amalekites, and whenever Moses lowered his arms in fatigue, the Amalekites would start winning. But then when two other individuals prop up Moses arms, then Israel starts to win. Also, the narrator compares that to what is called sympathetic magic:



click here: What Is Sympathetic Magic? (learnreligions.com)

And then the narrator uses the example of Ezekiel 4:1-3.

4) And then skip to 10:12 and 10:44 where he mentions 2 Kings 3:14-16 and altered states of consciousness and compared it to Shamanic traditions around the world.

5) But then you need to skip to 14:46 where he makes the claim that Apocalypsism wasn't mentioned in the Hebrew text until you get to the book of Daniel and was therefore influenced by Zoroastrism. Plus, he used other examples in the Torah and the Tanakh including Numbers 19:11 and the book of Leviticus.

6) And finally click on 18:35 where he mentions Zoroastrian influence and Zechariah 4:10-11 and the 7 eyes of Yahweh. However, he does mention the book of Revelation in conjunction with that.

But that's about it. The rest of the video discusses the influence of Zoroastrian on Christianity.

But there's another video where he discusses what he called Jacob's Pillar and Genesis 28:18, however, I will have to ask about that at another time.

Okay. Here is the problem. The person you are referencing, because he has not actually read the Torah in Hebrew, is mixing up a lot of things from having read English Christian bibles.

If you really want answers to these questions. I would have to offer to do a zoom with you where we start and finish from the Hebrew text and Torath Mosheh sources. The reason is that answering all of your question requires focusing on what is written in the Hebrew text and not on what non-Torath Mosheh intepretations of the English bibles are. I know that you mentioned this is a problem for you but because of the amount of time to give a clear and clarified answer that involves me having explain the language, and about 3,000 years of history about the text and the language.

If you are interested in my offer I can do all the work to set it up. It would probably only take about 15 to 20 minutes if we go by the Hebrew text and only Torath Mosheh sources rather than try to compared with non-Jewish and no-Hebrew language based youtubers are saying.