Judaism, Christianity, and the Jewish Faith

[Nakosis]

Many in the Jewish community would reject that Paul belonged to the Jewish faith after teaching that Jesus was the Messiah. Paul believed Jesus was the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Paul believed the Jewish faith was being fulfilled by Jesus. Why would he not be considered Jewish in faith then? It would seem to be the logical conclusion. Paul had a Jewish heritage and since Paul viewed Jesus to be the promised Messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets, it only follows that Paul still belonged to the Jewish faith. Paul got black balled it seems.


Then again, I've heard theologians suggest that Paul converted to Christianity, which I think is a misrepresentation. I don't think theologians should view Paul's belief that Jesus is the messiah as a conversion from the Jewish faith. A conversion implies he converted from one religion to another, when Paul did no such thing. Paul may have converted from being an executioner of those who followed Jesus to a believer in him, but he never converted from the Jewish faith to what we know as Christianity today. He taught a progression of the Jewish faith instead of a conversion to another religion.


I may think Christianity is a shadow of its former self, but I do view Jesus to be the chosen messiah as prophesied by Jewish prophets. Judaism is Judaism and in my honest opinion I feel like Judaism got left behind in the dark ages of strict written law instead of progressing towards spiritual law's pertaining to the human heart. With that being said, do you think Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith or that he converted to what we call Christianity?

Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism both come about during the 1st century. They both came out of the same Judaic community. Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, but whatever he takes it upon himself to define Christianity. Based on his belief in guidance by the Holy Spirit. That's the Christianity that survived. He interpreted the OT to support his ideology. Rabbinical Judaism held a different interpretation.

I guess that means you see Paul as having the authority to make that interpretation? Not the Rabbis...

 

[Levite]

The fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom. That is 50 percent of your problem.

Proverbs 9:10. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

That is an almost-always mistranslated verse. The word in Hebrew yir'ah can sometimes mean fear, but often-- especially in reference to God-- actually means "awe."

So the verse (תחלת חכמה יראת ה' ודעת קדשים בינ&#1492 actually ought to be rendered along the lines of, "The beginning of wisdom is awe of God; knowledge of holy things, comprehension."

 

[Sleeppy]

The Covenant is the Covenant and not a Law per se. As far as "the world to come", Jews are all over the spectrum on that and long have been. Didn't you ever read the "N.T." and what one of the differences between the Sadducees and Pharisees was?

Your claim that "exclusivity" is a Jewish paradigm is bogus, and apparently you never heard the expression of "two Jews having three opinions on everything", which also applies to our religious approach. Nor did you apparently hear of anything dealing with the commentary system that we've been using going way back when.

Per se? What is the (your) answer to the question? What does the Torah say about Jews who break the covenant?

It's not bogus and here's why: There is one God; this one God chose one special people; this one God resided in the one temple in Jerusalem; there is one Holy Land; there are no prophets outside of those mentioned in the Jewish texts; there is one Messiah who will lead the entire world into the understanding of the one God, and all nations will flow to the one temple, where the one God will reside, in the one Holy Land, in the Holiest city on Earth, and where the one Messiah will teach them of this one God.

I've heard the expression "two Jews, three opinions." This has nothing to do with this. But it does make the entire thing seem unstable, in the same manner that having hundreds of denominations makes Christianity seem unstable to Akivah.

 

[Sleeppy]

You didn't get it from us. Since most Christian beliefs came from pagan beliefs, that probably came from pagans as well.

Judaism was influenced by paganism as well.. But considering that polytheism is likely the paganism we're referring to- the very nature of polytheism is less exclusive than monotheism.

 

[Sleeppy]

As metis said, we don't have a singular belief in Judaism for that. I've heard rabbis even within the same denomination have different things to say about the afterlife. The long and short of it, no person knows for sure. G-d barely mentioned the afterlife in the Hebrew bible. It obviously isn't very important.

OK. What was the punishment, on Earth, for the 42 youths who mocked Elisha?

 

[Nakosis]

To me, the Christian way is impossible to follow. You've got multiple versions of a bible, thousands of denominations, and each one is damning the other to hell. Everyone says their own way is the right way and you've got these horrendous punishments for not doing things the one right way. Every time a new popular leader comes around, then you've got to switch up and do things a new right way or be damned to hell all over again. I have no clue how Christians remain sane.

Isn't there a diversity of religious thinking among Jews too?

 

[Harikrish]

That is an almost-always mistranslated verse. The word in Hebrew yir'ah can sometimes mean fear, but often-- especially in reference to God-- actually means "awe."

So the verse (תחלת חכמה יראת ה' ודעת קדשים בינ&#1492 actually ought to be rendered along the lines of, "The beginning of wisdom is awe of God; knowledge of holy things, comprehension."

Does god want man to hold him in awe or fear him?

God destroyed cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) and everyone in it. God destroyed the world with a giant flood and only saved Noah and family and what could fit in a boat. Did he punish man with death and destruction so he could be awed or feared? The Jews got the translation wrong. That is why most bibles have corrected their mistake.

 

[Sleeppy]

Does god want man to hold him in awe or fear him?

God destroyed cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) and everyone in it. God destroyed the world with a giant flood and only saved Noah and family and what could fit in a boat. Did he punish man with death and destruction so he could be awed or feared? The Jews got the translation wrong. That is why most bibles have corrected their mistake.

Neither are a mistake. It's both awe and fear. Jews have celebrations of the things the Torah says that God did on their behalf, such as splitting the Red Sea, and bringing them out of Egypt. Those things contribute to the awe they refer to.

 

[Harikrish]

Neither are a mistake. It's both awe and fear. Jews have celebrations of the things the Torah says that God did on their behalf, such as splitting the Red Sea, and bringing them out of Egypt. Those things contribute to the awe they refer to.

The Jews did not hold God in awe during their exodus from Egypt. In fact they went back to their sinful ways and began to worship and sacrifice to pagan Gods.

Exodus 32 Contemporary English Version (CEV)

The People Make an Idol To Worship
32 After the people saw that Moses had been on the mountain for a long time, they went to Aaron and said, “Make us an image of a god who will lead and protect us. Moses brought us out of Egypt, but nobody knows what has happened to him.”

2 Aaron told them, “Bring me the gold earrings that your wives and sons and daughters are wearing.” 3 Everybody took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron, 4 then he melted them and made an idol in the shape of a young bull.

All the people said to one another, “This is the god who brought us out of Egypt!”

5 When Aaron saw what was happening, he built an altar in front of the idol and said, “Tomorrow we will celebrate in honor of the Lord.” 6 The people got up early the next morning and killed some animals to be used for sacrifices and others to be eaten. Then everyone ate and drank so much that they began to carry on like wild people.

7 The Lord said to Moses:

Hurry back down! Those people you led out of Egypt are acting like fools. 8 They have already stopped obeying me and have made themselves an idol in the shape of a young bull. They have bowed down to it, offered sacrifices, and said that it is the god who brought them out of Egypt. 9 Moses, I have seen how stubborn these people are, 10 and I’m angry enough to destroy them, so don’t try to stop me. But I will make your descendants into a great nation.

 

[metis]

2 billion Christians, 1.4 billion Muslims.......14 million Jews. Surely numbers must mean something to the Jews. Even the Arabs are numbered totalling 450 million. Your religion appears to make the least sense to the most number of people.

It is not the easiest religion to follow, especially with the 613 Laws. Then there's the issue of circumcision...

Makes sense to us, and that's really all that matters in this regard. I would recommend that if it doesn't make sense to you, don't convert-- it's really just that simple.

 

[CMike]

Actually we had an interesting sermon on fearing G-d.

The sermon was that we should try and channel all over fears into fearing G-D.

By fearing G-D it's realizing that G-D is always with us.

Below is an interesting explanation about it.

Jewish Treats: Fearing God

 

[metis]

Per se? What is the (your) answer to the question? What does the Torah say about Jews who break the covenant?

The Covenant is a promise made by God, so we cannot break it, only God can. Remember that the Covenant preceded the giving of the Law.

It's not bogus and here's why: There is one God; this one God chose one special people; this one God resided in the one temple in Jerusalem; there is one Holy Land; there are no prophets outside of those mentioned in the Jewish texts; there is one Messiah who will lead the entire world into the understanding of the one God, and all nations will flow to the one temple, where the one God will reside, in the one Holy Land, in the Holiest city on Earth, and where the one Messiah will teach them of this one God.

Even if we assume all of the above is correct at face value, we do not judge other people in other religions on these regards other than we feel they should act with compassion and justice towards others. We make no claims that you or anyone else needs to believe in what we may believe, nor do we condemn others who act morally. Nor do we make claim that we will eventually take over the world. However, there's some other religions that do believe that one must believe as they do to get "saved" and/or that they will eventually dominate the world.

I've heard the expression "two Jews, three opinions." This has nothing to do with this. But it does make the entire thing seem unstable, in the same manner that having hundreds of denominations makes Christianity seem unstable to Akivah.

If you understood our commentary system, you would maybe understand that this is a strength in that there's plenty of freedom of thought and expression, encouragement to use our imagination, and also an encouragement to use reason. Matter of fact, a general rule of thumb in Judaism is that if a particular interpretation defies reason, go with reason and look for alternative interpretations.

 

[Harikrish]

Actually we had an interesting sermon on fearing G-d.

The sermon was that we should try and channel all over fears into fearing G-D.

By fearing G-D it's realizing that G-D is always with us.

Below is an interesting explanation about it.

Jewish Treats: Fearing God

It appears no one feared the God of the Jews no even the Jews. The Romans certainly didn't, they crucified Jesus a Jewish member of the triune, upon the request of the Jews.

 

[CMike]

It appears no one feared the God of the Jews no even the Jews. The Romans certainly didn't, they crucified Jesus a Jewish member of the triune, upon the request of the Jews.

Apparenly the Egyptians under Pharaoh did.

Jesus had nothing to do with Judaism.

 

[metis]

Isn't there a diversity of religious thinking among Jews too?

Tremendously. And I hope Akiva expands on this since your question was addressed to him.

There's a joke sometimes told in Jewish circles that goes something like this:

A Jewish man was stranded on a small island for 10 years, and finally a ship sailing by noticed smoke signals being sent, so they went to investigate. They saw the man and began to talk with him, so a series of questions and answer came next, and it went like this:

"Is there any one else on the island?"

"Nope, and I've been stranded here for 10 years!"

"Well, we're here to rescue you, so just jump into our boat and we'll be off."

"Before I do that, I want to show you the two synagogues I built."

"Two synagogues? Why two synagogues if you're the only one here?"

"Well, there's my synagogue, and then there's that other synagogue I'll never set foot into!"

 

[Nakosis]

Apparenly the Egyptians under Pharaoh did.

Jesus had nothing to do with Judaism.

I'm not sure Jesus had much to do with Christianity. If we take Paul out of the picture did Jesus teach anything that was not from the OT?

 

[Sleeppy]

The Covenant is a promise made by God, so we cannot break it, only God can. Remember that the Covenant preceded the giving of the Law.

How does Jeremiah 31:32 figure into this?

Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them -- an affirmation of God.

Even if we assume all of the above is correct at face value, we do not judge other people in other religions on these regards other than we feel they should act with compassion and justice towards others. We make no claims that you or anyone else needs to believe in what we may believe, nor do we condemn others who act morally. Nor do we make claim that we will eventually take over the world. However, there's some other religions that do believe that one must believe as they do to get "saved" and/or that they will eventually dominate the world.

I'm not sure you can bring up "two Jews, three opinions," and then generalize for the whole.. I don't think CMike, for example, would reserve judgement from Jews who apostatize, or that he would renounce believing that the Jewish Messiah has the sole purpose of uniting the world under one God. And one of the seven Noahide laws specifically states that everyone worship only one God, presumably the one Judaism worships.. But I don't know how widespread Jewish acceptance of the Noahide laws is. -- All these beliefs that say the world as a whole must know the one God, and "all nations will flow unto it (the temple of Jerusalem, Isaiah 2:2), are in the Jewish scripture. It's not fair to excuse yourselves from the idea that certain laws are absolutely necessary, or certain consequences become necessary- or the idea that a future Jewish Messiah is tasked with revealing the God of Judaism to the whole world.

If you understood our commentary system, you would maybe understand that this is a strength in that there's plenty of freedom of thought and expression, encouragement to use our imagination, and also an encouragement to use reason. Matter of fact, a general rule of thumb in Judaism is that if a particular interpretation defies reason, go with reason and look for alternative interpretations.

It's both a strength and a detriment. I almost edited my post to include, unstable, "or flexible", but I wanted to see what you would say. The same is true for Christianity. It can be unstable, but it can also be considered flexible, for the reasons you've outlined. Unfortunately, there is some tendency between both camps to abandon reason for written word.

 

[Sleeppy]

The Jews did not hold God in awe during their exodus from Egypt. In fact they went back to their sinful ways and began to worship and sacrifice to pagan Gods.

Exodus 32 Contemporary English Version (CEV)

The People Make an Idol To Worship
32 After the people saw that Moses had been on the mountain for a long time, they went to Aaron and said, “Make us an image of a god who will lead and protect us. Moses brought us out of Egypt, but nobody knows what has happened to him.”

2 Aaron told them, “Bring me the gold earrings that your wives and sons and daughters are wearing.” 3 Everybody took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron, 4 then he melted them and made an idol in the shape of a young bull.

All the people said to one another, “This is the god who brought us out of Egypt!”

5 When Aaron saw what was happening, he built an altar in front of the idol and said, “Tomorrow we will celebrate in honor of the Lord.” 6 The people got up early the next morning and killed some animals to be used for sacrifices and others to be eaten. Then everyone ate and drank so much that they began to carry on like wild people.

7 The Lord said to Moses:

Hurry back down! Those people you led out of Egypt are acting like fools. 8 They have already stopped obeying me and have made themselves an idol in the shape of a young bull. They have bowed down to it, offered sacrifices, and said that it is the god who brought them out of Egypt. 9 Moses, I have seen how stubborn these people are, 10 and I’m angry enough to destroy them, so don’t try to stop me. But I will make your descendants into a great nation.

I doubt any of these events occurred. If God had brought them out of Egypt in the manner described, I doubt very seriously they would've built a golden bull to worship. It seems like they were making it up as they went.-- But this is only one event. The Israelites did hold God in high esteem, to the point that they modeled their entire society after what they attributed to Him. We don't always treat our loved ones as they should be treated- do we?

 

[Flankerl]

Akivah, metis, Levite, CMike

Dont feed it.

 

[Akivah]

2 billion Christians, 1.4 billion Muslims.......14 million Jews. Surely numbers must mean something to the Jews.

No, not really. I really don't care how many people aren't in my religion. It's a non-issue.

But for you, it really seems to matter. You know, there are more Buddhist and more Hindus than Muslims. You need to consider if you've got the right religion.