Judaism, Christianity, and the Jewish Faith

[RabbiO]

Akivah, metis, Levite, CMike

Dont feed it.

Sometimes the urge gets the better of one, especially when one gets to be as old as Metis and me.

 

[Akivah]

Isn't there a diversity of religious thinking among Jews too?

Yes, but our denominations don't damn each other.

 

[Desert Snake]

Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism both come about during the 1st century. They both came out of the same Judaic community. Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, but whatever he takes it upon himself to define Christianity. Based on his belief in guidance by the Holy Spirit. That's the Christianity that survived. He interpreted the OT to support his ideology. Rabbinical Judaism held a different interpretation.

I guess that means you see Paul as having the authority to make that interpretation? Not the Rabbis...

I would say not really. Paul remember was offering his own gospel, his own testimony, he didn't invent Xianity by any means, he describes it rather. We can notice this as well with the later ideas used to explain concepts like the Godhead etc. Most of the 'church' works on the matter is explaining ideas already extant, not inventing them. Keep in mind that realistically the church also had to navigate between their own previous beliefs and those of new converts, if one views Xianity through the lens of church apologetics it can get confusing, we have to look at the 'theology' of Xianity first to understand and critique church writings/ideas.
ex. trinity, this is an 'explanation', not an invention..so forth and so on..

 

[Levite]

Does god want man to hold him in awe or fear him?

Judging by the Hebrew word, to hold Him in awe.

God destroyed cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) and everyone in it. God destroyed the world with a giant flood and only saved Noah and family and what could fit in a boat. Did he punish man with death and destruction so he could be awed or feared? The Jews got the translation wrong. That is why most bibles have corrected their mistake.

Really? You're really going to say that the Jews have consistently misunderstood what the word in the original Hebrew text-- written by Jews, in the Jewish language-- means, and that it took non-Jewish Biblical translators to correct the error?!

Are you quite certain you don't want to take back what might be one of the most monumentally ignorant comments I have ever-- ever-- seen?!

 

[roger1440]

The fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom. That is 50 percent of your problem.

Proverbs 9:10. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

How do you understand that verse? Also, you never did tell me what the other 50% of my problem is.

 

[roger1440]

The fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom. That is 50 percent of your problem.

Proverbs 9:10. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

I know close to nothing about Islam, but what I do know is that the following poem written by a Muslim saint and mystic transcends religious boundaries. It was written over 1000 years ago.

If I Adore You
If I adore You out of fear of Hell,
Burn me in Hell!
If I adore you out of desire for Paradise,
Lock me out of Paradise.
But if I adore you for Yourself alone,
Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty.
Rabia al-Basri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabia_Basri

A very famous Rabbi wrote the following nearly a 1000 years ago.

Halacha 1
A person should not say: "I will fulfill the mitzvot of the Torah and occupy myself in its wisdom in order to receive all the blessings which are contained within it or in order to merit the life of the world to come."

"[Similarly,] I will separate myself from all the sins which the Torah warned against so that I will be saved from all the curses contained in the Torah or so that [my soul] will not be cut off from the life of the world to come."

It is not fitting to serve God in this manner. A person whose service is motivated by these factors is considered one who serves out of fear. He is not on the level of the prophets or of the wise.

The only ones who serve, God in this manner are common people, women, and minors. They are trained to serve God out of fear until their knowledge increases and they serve out of love.

Halacha 2
One who serves [God] out of love occupies himself in the Torah and the mitzvot and walks in the paths of wisdom for no ulterior motive: not because of fear that evil will occur, nor in order to acquire benefit. Rather, he does what is true because it is true, and ultimately, good will come because of it. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/911914/jewish/Teshuvah-Chapter-Ten.htm
​

To use my own words, the love of God is its own reward.

 

[metis]

Sometimes the urge gets the better of one, especially when one gets to be as old as Metis and me.

The operative word should be "mature"-- well, at least in my case.

 

[metis]

How does Jeremiah 31:32 figure into this?

This is a reoccurring theme in the Tanakh, namely that we screw up by not following the Law closely enough, God punishes us, we are restored as we have learned our lesson, let's eat!

The idea of having "the Law in our heart" is that which most of us try to do, and this is one of the things that was strongly encouraged in the more liberal Pharisee schools that eventually became dominant after the Temple was destroyed and a majority of us scattered into the diasporah. It's the Hillel teaching of "don't do unto others...". It's the overwhelming emphasis on compassion and justice that strongly comes out in the Talmud. It's a manifestation of "God's spirit" as found in the Tanakh. God can make more than one promise, you know.

I'm not sure you can bring up "two Jews, three opinions," and then generalize for the whole.. I don't think CMike, for example, would reserve judgement from Jews who apostatize, or that he would renounce believing that the Jewish Messiah has the sole purpose of uniting the world under one God. And one of the seven Noahide laws specifically states that everyone worship only one God, presumably the one Judaism worships.. But I don't know how widespread Jewish acceptance of the Noahide laws is. -- All these beliefs that say the world as a whole must know the one God, and "all nations will flow unto it (the temple of Jerusalem, Isaiah 2:2), are in the Jewish scripture. It's not fair to excuse yourselves from the idea that certain laws are absolutely necessary, or certain consequences become necessary- or the idea that a future Jewish Messiah is tasked with revealing the God of Judaism to the whole world.

Again, you just seem to not recognize the diversity that there is in Judaism, and I can't quite figure out why? Unlike Christianity whereas divisions were created because of sometimes even relatively minor theological differences, Judaism has long accepted individual diversity, although not to the point of there being a complete free-for-all. For example, CMike and I have disagreed on many things in the past-- but that's OK and the way it should be.

The several branches of Judaism really don't deal with minor arguments but more along the line of how do we approach Torah and Talmud. I'm on the lunatic left-wing fringe of Judaism, and yet I have no problem with my rabbi or those at my synagogue and was even selected by my rabbi to co-teach our Lunch & Learn program even though he and I are really very theologically different.

Of course to be accepted by other Jews here at RF, I have to pay them.

 

[roger1440]

2 billion Christians, 1.4 billion Muslims.......14 million Jews. Surely numbers must mean something to the Jews. Even the Arabs are numbered totalling 450 million. Your religion appears to make the least sense to the most number of people.

For centuries Christians and Muslims have gone by the slogan “convert or die”. It sounds pretty persuasive to me. Where do I sign up?

 

[Sleeppy]

This is a reoccurring theme in the Tanakh, namely that we screw up by not following the Law closely enough, God punishes us, we are restored as we have learned our lesson, let's eat!

The idea of having "the Law in our heart" is that which most of us try to do, and this is one of the things that was strongly encouraged in the more liberal Pharisee schools that eventually became dominant after the Temple was destroyed and a majority of us scattered into the diasporah. It's the Hillel teaching of "don't do unto others...". It's the overwhelming emphasis on compassion and justice that strongly comes out in the Talmud. It's a manifestation of "God's spirit" as found in the Tanakh. God can make more than one promise, you know.





Again, you just seem to not recognize the diversity that there is in Judaism, and I can't quite figure out why? Unlike Christianity whereas divisions were created because of sometimes even relatively minor theological differences, Judaism has long accepted individual diversity, although not to the point of there being a complete free-for-all. For example, CMike and I have disagreed on many things in the past-- but that's OK and the way it should be.

The several branches of Judaism really don't deal with minor arguments but more along the line of how do we approach Torah and Talmud. I'm on the lunatic left-wing fringe of Judaism, and yet I have no problem with my rabbi or those at my synagogue and was even selected by my rabbi to co-teach our Lunch & Learn program even though he and I are really very theologically different.

Of course to be accepted by other Jews here at RF, I have to pay them.

We started this conversation after I asked what would/should happen to a Jew who breaks the covenant.. You responded by saying that the covenant cannot be broken, only God can revoke it. Jeremiah however, says that the covenant was previously made void. You then replied with a partial answer to my original question. When Jews voided the covenant, or broke it's contractual conditions, the Jews were punished, until the original conditions were again satisfied. So what happens to Jews who break the covenant, or make it void? -- We can look into the Tanakh for examples of punishment. And if we were to do this, we would find something very analogous to Christian punishment and restoration/salvation. The exact idea that Hillel presents is presented by Jesus in the NT as the second greatest commandment, and summation of the covenant.

I've recognized the diversity for sometime now. I don't completely understand it. Nor do I understand your generalized contrasting with Christianity. Do you disagree with Isaiah, when he states that the Jerusalem temple will be the hub of religious knowledge, under a Jewish Messiah? What is the punishment for a gentile who disobeys one of the seven Noahide Laws?

 

[roger1440]

We started this conversation after I asked what would/should happen to a Jew who breaks the covenant.. You responded by saying that the covenant cannot be broken, only God can revoke it. Jeremiah however, says that the covenant was previously made void. You then replied with a partial answer to my original question. When Jews voided the covenant, or broke it's contractual conditions, the Jews were punished, until the original conditions were again satisfied. So what happens to Jews who break the covenant, or make it void? -- We can look into the Tanakh for examples of punishment. And if we were to do this, we would find something very analogous to Christian punishment and restoration/salvation. The exact idea that Hillel presents is presented by Jesus in the NT as the second greatest commandment, and summation of the covenant.

I've recognized the diversity for sometime now. I don't completely understand it. Nor do I understand your generalized contrasting with Christianity. Do you disagree with Isaiah, when he states that the Jerusalem temple will be the hub of religious knowledge, under a Jewish Messiah? What is the punishment for a gentile who disobeys one of the seven Noahide Laws?

4 "As for you, if you walk before me in integrity of heart and uprightness, as David your father did, and do all I command and observe my decrees and laws, 5 I will establish your royal throne over Israel forever, as I promised David your father when I said, 'You shall never fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.' 6 "But if you or your sons turn away from me and do not observe the commands and decrees I have given you and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land I have given them and will reject this temple I have consecrated for my Name. Israel will then become a byword and an object of ridicule among all peoples. 8 And though this temple is now imposing, all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff and say, 'Why has the LORD done such a thing to this land and to this temple?' 9 People will answer, 'Because they have forsaken the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving them--that is why the LORD brought all this disaster on them.' "1 Kings 9:4-9

​

 

[metis]

We started this conversation after I asked what would/should happen to a Jew who breaks the covenant.. You responded by saying that the covenant cannot be broken, only God can revoke it. Jeremiah however, says that the covenant was previously made void. You then replied with a partial answer to my original question. When Jews voided the covenant, or broke it's contractual conditions, the Jews were punished, until the original conditions were again satisfied. So what happens to Jews who break the covenant, or make it void? -- We can look into the Tanakh for examples of punishment. And if we were to do this, we would find something very analogous to Christian punishment and restoration/salvation. The exact idea that Hillel presents is presented by Jesus in the NT as the second greatest commandment, and summation of the covenant.

First of all, we are not talking about Jesus here, so if that's the tree you're barking up, I'm not taking this discussion any further.

Secondly, I mentioned that the Covenant came before the Law and was a promise from God that it was essentially permanent. Yes, there were some times in the Tanakh whereas God said that He thought about negating the Covenant, but then that was followed up by Him saying he wouldn't do that. Therefore, based on what we see in the Tanakh, God may well punish us, but He said that the Covenant is "forever" and "perpetual".

Your original question was dealing with "breaking the Covenant", and I responded that we cannot break it because it was God's promise. We can violate the Law, however, and for that we may be punished.

I've recognized the diversity for sometime now. I don't completely understand it. Nor do I understand your generalized contrasting with Christianity. Do you disagree with Isaiah, when he states that the Jerusalem temple will be the hub of religious knowledge, under a Jewish Messiah? What is the punishment for a gentile who disobeys one of the seven Noahide Laws?

But you make accusations and assertions instead of asking questions, so if you were truly curious, you wouldn't have done that. As others have picked up (I'm a bit too slow), is that you here with an agenda, and that agenda is really not to learn about Judaism or your tone would be very different.

As far as those who may violate one or many of the Noachide Laws, that's God's domain to deal with them, not ours.

 

[metis]

4 "As for you, if you walk before me in integrity of heart and uprightness, as David your father did, and do all I command and observe my decrees and laws, 5 I will establish your royal throne over Israel forever, as I promised David your father when I said, 'You shall never fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.' 6 "But if you or your sons turn away from me and do not observe the commands and decrees I have given you and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land I have given them and will reject this temple I have consecrated for my Name. Israel will then become a byword and an object of ridicule among all peoples. 8 And though this temple is now imposing, all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff and say, 'Why has the LORD done such a thing to this land and to this temple?' 9 People will answer, 'Because they have forsaken the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving them--that is why the LORD brought all this disaster on them.' "1 Kings 9:4-9

​

But:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.


Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

BTW, the above is not a complete list of verses that pretty much say the same thing.

 

[roger1440]

But:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.


Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

BTW, the above is not a complete list of verses that pretty much say the same thing.

The covenant is ever lasting, true. The covenant is also an agreement between God and Israel. God does his part IF the Jews do their part. In other words God does this if the Jews do that. The covenant is conditional. The relationship between the two parties is not permanently severed. Like a marriage, “till death do us part”.

 

[CMike]

Does it say that in the above passages? If so, where?

 

[metis]

The covenant is ever lasting, true. The covenant is also an agreement between God and Israel. God does his part IF the Jews do their part. In other words God does this if the Jews do that. The covenant is conditional. The relationship between the two parties is not permanently severed. Like a marriage, “till death do us part”.

But that's not what is says, imo. Since in the scriptures God uses the words "forever" and "perpetual", is one really going to take the position that He would not know what would happen in the long run? Secondly, God's words when announcing the Covenant were not conditional as He says "I will be you God and you shall be my people".

Here's just some verses from Genesis deal with God's promise to Abraham:

Gen.17[2] And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."
[4] "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations.
[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
[9] And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
[10] This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
[11] You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
[14] Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."


Thirdly, since the potential punishment that we could be faced with is not following the Law, all 613 if them (see Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) ), why would it make sense for Him to supposedly negate the Covenant and then give it to Christians who don't observe most of the entire Law, including even basics like the Sabbath Laws and kosher Laws? Did God suddenly have a brain fart and totally forget what He said was so important to Him that we must follow?

BTW, just a reminder that gentiles are not bound by the Law, although you probably knew this already.

 

[roger1440]

But that's not what is says, imo. Since in the scriptures God uses the words "forever" and "perpetual", is one really going to take the position that He would not know what would happen in the long run? Secondly, God's words when announcing the Covenant were not conditional as He says "I will be you God and you shall be my people".

Here's just some verses from Genesis deal with God's promise to Abraham:

Gen.17[2] And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."
[4] "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations.
[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
[9] And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
[10] This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
[11] You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
[14] Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."


Thirdly, since the potential punishment that we could be faced with is not following the Law, all 613 if them (see Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) ), why would it make sense for Him to supposedly negate the Covenant and then give it to Christians who don't observe most of the entire Law, including even basics like the Sabbath Laws and kosher Laws? Did God suddenly have a brain fart and totally forget what He said was so important to Him that we must follow?

BTW, just a reminder that gentiles are not bound by the Law, although you probably knew this already.

"But if you or your sons turn away from me and do not observe the commands and decrees I have given you and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land I have given them and will reject this temple..."

Explain this verse.

 

[Sleeppy]

First of all, we are not talking about Jesus here

We're not.

Secondly, I mentioned that the Covenant came before the Law and was a promise from God that it was essentially permanent. Yes, there were some times in the Tanakh whereas God said that He thought about negating the Covenant, but then that was followed up by Him saying he wouldn't do that. Therefore, based on what we see in the Tanakh, God may well punish us, but He said that the Covenant is "forever" and "perpetual".

Your original question was dealing with "breaking the Covenant", and I responded that we cannot break it because it was God's promise. We can violate the Law, however, and for that we may be punished.

But according to Jeremiah, you can "void" the covenant, which you mentioned was due to breaking the Law. This is what I meant by "breaking" the covenant (contract). I'm aware that the Tanakh says the covenant is perpetual. This makes sense, because the consequences for "breaking" or voiding the covenant contract are a part of the contract- so even if it is being voided, part of it remains in effect. I get it.

But you make accusations and assertions instead of asking questions, so if you were truly curious, you wouldn't have done that. As others have picked up (I'm a bit too slow), is that you here with an agenda, and that agenda is really not to learn about Judaism or your tone would be very different.

I'm not harming you or the "others" in any way. Nor do I intend to in the future. Making accusations and assertions only gives you the opportunity to debate, and to interpret the evidence, which is what we're here for. You and the "others" have no reason to feel threatened here. However, we both have agendas-- we can be honest. The reason you and the "others" keep bringing up this idea that I must only present questions, for the sole purpose of learning about Judaism, is a part of your agenda. My agenda does not include convincing you to accept Christianity-- I've understood it's not something I can do, for some time now. My agenda in this thread was/is solely to test statements already being made here. The statement was made that Christianity was exclusivist- which it is. I can admit that. I don't like lying to myself, so I can see that this is true. I stated that Christianity inherited its exclusivist nature from Judaism. I believe this is evident, most notably in the monotheistic idea, and the Messianic idea. These are two dominant themes that Judaism and Christianity share. Christianity did not invent these, and neither did Judaism- but Christianity did inherit from Judaism. If anyone disagrees, I would like to know why specifically.. Not just "because paganism".. I'd like to see examples of the paganism being referred to. If it's convincing, I will consider it-- God gave me this ability. Again, I'm not looking to offend you, or harm you in any way. If I have, accept my apology, and we can part ways until the next debate comes along. What's really important to me is what Hillel states; I would not do to you, what I would not have done to myself.

As far as those who may violate one or many of the Noachide Laws, that's God's domain to deal with them, not ours.

I'm aware of this. I was asking your educated opinion on this matter. I'm sure the Tanakh has said something about this, and has given examples to draw reference from. If it's too much to ask, so be it.

 

[metis]

"But if you or your sons turn away from me and do not observe the commands and decrees I have given you and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land I have given them and will reject this temple..."

Explain this verse.

It was already explained and, yes, we were threatened, but there was also the promises.

But you still haven't dealt with why would God demand we follow the Law, punished when we didn't, and then supposedly give the Covenant to another group that doesn't even acknowledge the vast majority of the Law? I can't see where that makes one iota of sense, and some churches also arrived at this same conclusion, such as the RCC.

And notice what's going on here, namely that we in essence are being told God abandoned us, many believing we're going to hell, and yet we're not going around and judging other religions or condemning them. We're not the ones claiming that God abandoned you and that He condemns you. We're not the ones who claim one has to have p.c. beliefs or they're condemned.

Heaven knows we have our faults, and the promise in Ezekiel has it that we will be judged, but as individuals instead of corporate punishment. At the final judgement, the belief is that we as individuals will be judged. And I would suggest that this approach makes more sense, such as maybe you as a student may have experienced back in school when an angry teacher punished an entire class for the actions of maybe only a few students. How did that feel if you were innocent?

Anyhow, gotta go, but I have to admit that I'm not terribly pleased about my being involved in this discussion because I don't live a life of Judaism versus Christianity, or any other religion.

 

[metis]

We're not.

But according to Jeremiah, you can "void" the covenant, which you mentioned was due to breaking the Law. This is what I meant by "breaking" the covenant (contract). I'm aware that the Tanakh says the covenant is perpetual. This makes sense, because the consequences for "breaking" or voiding the covenant contract are a part of the contract- so even if it is being voided, part of it remains in effect. I get it.

I'm not harming you or the "others" in any way. Nor do I intend to in the future. Making accusations and assertions only gives you the opportunity to debate, and to interpret the evidence, which is what we're here for. You and the "others" have no reason to feel threatened here. However, we both have agendas-- we can be honest. The reason you and the "others" keep bringing up this idea that I must only present questions, for the sole purpose of learning about Judaism, is a part of your agenda. My agenda does not include convincing you to accept Christianity-- I've understood it's not something I can do, for some time now. My agenda in this thread was/is solely to test statements already being made here. The statement was made that Christianity was exclusivist- which it is. I can admit that. I don't like lying to myself, so I can see that this is true. I stated that Christianity inherited its exclusivist nature from Judaism. I believe this is evident, most notably in the monotheistic idea, and the Messianic idea. These are two dominant themes that Judaism and Christianity share. Christianity did not invent these, and neither did Judaism- but Christianity did inherit from Judaism. If anyone disagrees, I would like to know why specifically.. Not just "because paganism".. I'd like to see examples of the paganism being referred to. If it's convincing, I will consider it-- God gave me this ability. Again, I'm not looking to offend you, or harm you in any way. If I have, accept my apology, and we can part ways until the next debate comes along. What's really important to me is what Hillel states; I would not do to you, what I would not have done to myself.

I appreciate your explanation, and no you haven't offended me. I just don't like getting into Judaism versus Christianity discussions. I just don't see life that way.

I'm aware of this. I was asking your educated opinion on this matter. I'm sure the Tanakh has said something about this, and has given examples to draw reference from. If it's too much to ask, so be it.

You're really asking the wrong person on this since my approach is more along the line of Jewish naturalism, such as what you would find with the likes of Spinoza. As far as the other Jews here, including some that know much more than I do, they can maybe deal with you question.

BTW, just to clarify what you might see as a contradiction (which it is), with what I have written over the last couple of days on this thread and what I actually personally lean towards, but I put on a different "kippa" (hat) so as to give a Jewish response that's more, let me say, conventional.

Gotta go for the evening since I'm chief cook and bottle-washer. Please pray for us.