Judaism, Christianity, and the Jewish Faith

[ZenMonkey]

Many in the Jewish community would reject that Paul belonged to the Jewish faith after teaching that Jesus was the Messiah. Paul believed Jesus was the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Paul believed the Jewish faith was being fulfilled by Jesus. Why would he not be considered Jewish in faith then? It would seem to be the logical conclusion. Paul had a Jewish heritage and since Paul viewed Jesus to be the promised Messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets, it only follows that Paul still belonged to the Jewish faith. Paul got black balled it seems.


Then again, I've heard theologians suggest that Paul converted to Christianity, which I think is a misrepresentation. I don't think theologians should view Paul's belief that Jesus is the messiah as a conversion from the Jewish faith. A conversion implies he converted from one religion to another, when Paul did no such thing. Paul may have converted from being an executioner of those who followed Jesus to a believer in him, but he never converted from the Jewish faith to what we know as Christianity today. He taught a progression of the Jewish faith instead of a conversion to another religion.


I may think Christianity is a shadow of its former self, but I do view Jesus to be the chosen messiah as prophesied by Jewish prophets. Judaism is Judaism and in my honest opinion I feel like Judaism got left behind in the dark ages of strict written law instead of progressing towards spiritual law's pertaining to the human heart. With that being said, do you think Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith or that he converted to what we call Christianity?

 

[outhouse]

. Judaism is Judaism

Really?

Do you have a clue what Judaism was like in the first century?

I could write a book on the topic and the definition would still be incomplete.

Before getting to involved, maybe you could tell us what this generic version of Judaism is Judaism is all about.

 

[xkatz]

What Paul taught after his vision(s) is definitely not Judaism. Jesus could not be moshiach according to the Jewish understanding of the concept, not to mention Paul abrogated Torah in both theology and praxis. The worship of Jesus is incompatible with Judaism in it's essence.

 

[Desert Snake]

Many in the Jewish community would reject that Paul belonged to the Jewish faith after teaching that Jesus was the Messiah. Paul believed Jesus was the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Paul believed the Jewish faith was being fulfilled by Jesus. Why would he not be considered Jewish in faith then? It would seem to be the logical conclusion. Paul had a Jewish heritage and since Paul viewed Jesus to be the promised Messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets, it only follows that Paul still belonged to the Jewish faith. Paul got black balled it seems.


Then again, I've heard theologians suggest that Paul converted to Christianity, which I think is a misrepresentation. I don't think theologians should view Paul's belief that Jesus is the messiah as a conversion from the Jewish faith. A conversion implies he converted from one religion to another, when Paul did no such thing. Paul may have converted from being an executioner of those who followed Jesus to a believer in him, but he never converted from the Jewish faith to what we know as Christianity today. He taught a progression of the Jewish faith instead of a conversion to another religion.


I may think Christianity is a shadow of its former self, but I do view Jesus to be the chosen messiah as prophesied by Jewish prophets. Judaism is Judaism and in my honest opinion I feel like Judaism got left behind in the dark ages of strict written law instead of progressing towards spiritual law's pertaining to the human heart. With that being said, do you think Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith or that he converted to what we call Christianity?

Without getting into details I would basically agree with you. When Paul taught against 'Jewish teachings' I think it was more of a reproach as opposed to a declaration of an entirely new Religion.

Anyways, Xianity as I know it includes various Torah laws and teachings, it's a Continuation Covenant. The first time I heard a Xian speak against the OT I was surprised, I didn't really know many Xians held those views.

 

[RabbiO]

I feel like Judaism got left behind in the dark ages of strict written law instead of progressing towards spiritual law's pertaining to the human heart.

The rest of your post deserves a more detailed response, but this part deserves only .

 

[ZenMonkey]

Judaism is Judaism. I'm not speaking of YOUR faith as YOU believe. I'm suggesting that Paul still belonged to the Jewish faith for the simple reason that he believed Jesus was the chosen Jewish messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Those who practice Judaism as many practice Judaism today - strict adherence to the written law were left behind by Paul and many others. Paul was a Jew who practiced the Jewish faith even after he began teaching Jesus as the Jewish messiah. If you disagree ... why? Jesus became lord (chief/high priest) and guided Paul to accept the progression of spiritual law as opposed to strict adherence to the written law.

 

[ZenMonkey]

What Paul taught after his vision(s) is definitely not Judaism. Jesus could not be moshiach according to the Jewish understanding of the concept, not to mention Paul abrogated Torah in both theology and praxis. The worship of Jesus is incompatible with Judaism in it's essence.

Do you have Rabbi's and/or high priest's to whom you look to for guidance and what not? Apply this to Jesus by who's name Paul said every knee will bow to God both on heaven and earth. Paul continued to say that every tongue will confess Jesus lord (high priest/chief) to the glory of God. I'm suggesting that Paul never said, nor suggested we worship Jesus. We're speaking about Paul ... Not Christianity.

 

[outhouse]

The worship of Jesus is incompatible with Judaism in it's essence.

Lets look at essence.

Did the Sadducees have and essence closer or further then the essence of Zealots?

I think Pauls version was closer to Judaism then Sadducees version as far as essence goes.

 

[outhouse]

Judaism is Judaism. .

Im not sure you even have a clue what Judaism was in the first century

 

[outhouse]

I'm suggesting that Paul still belonged to the Jewish faith for the simple reason that he believed Jesus was the chosen Jewish messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets

.

So all the Jewish laws he broke, made him jewish ?

Did paul claim he fulfilled the Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh or embodied the personal qualifications of the Messiah

 

[xkatz]

Do you have Rabbi's and/or high priest's to whom you look to for guidance and what not? Apply this to Jesus by who's name Paul said every knee will bow to God both on heaven and earth. Paul continued to say that every tongue will confess Jesus lord (high priest/chief) to the glory of God. I'm suggesting that Paul never said, nor suggested we worship Jesus. We're speaking about Paul ... Not Christianity.

It still doesn't change the fact that Jesus could not be moshiach according to Judaism and also doesn't change that Paul abrogated the Torah.

 

[ZenMonkey]

So all the Jewish laws he broke, made him jewish ?

Did paul claim he fulfilled the Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh or embodied the personal qualifications of the Messiah

Is Jewish written law the bedrock of the Jewish faith? That's old school Judaism <<--- Edit - Paul's religion was a progression of the old. Paul, via Jesus taught a progression and fulfillment of the Jewish faith. It may not be Judaism as many practice and believe, but it would still be considered a progression of Jewish faith. It derived from the Jewish religion and involves the believed to be Jewish messiah after all. Paul claimed that Jesus was the anointed one (Christ). He certainly believed Jesus was the coming messiah promised by Jewish prophets.

 

[ZenMonkey]

It still doesn't change the fact that Jesus could not be moshiach according to Judaism and also doesn't change that Paul abrogated the Torah.

Couldn't be? Why not? Paul believed Jesus to be the savior sent by God to free (save/liberate) the Jewish people. He was viewed by Paul to be lord (chief/high priest) from whom Paul received instruction and taught a progression of the Jewish faith. This involved a liberation from strict Jewish written law in favor of spiritual laws pertaining to the human heart.

 

[outhouse]

and involves the believed to be Jewish messiah after all.


.

No Judaism I specific and denies he was ever a messiah.

It derived from the Jewish religion

No kidding

 

[outhouse]

Paul believed Jesus to be the savior sent by God to free (save/liberate) the Jewish people
.

Paul went against Judaism.


No true scottsman,,,,, that because paul was jewish he taught Judaism.


pauls Judaism has always been in question by the way.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Im not sure you even have a clue what Judaism was in the first century

It doesn't really matter what it was in the first century. Jesus guided its progression through his ministry and the apostles. He is believed to be the chosen one sent by God to liberate the Jewish people ... along with the gentiles. What Judaism was in the first century is not the same as where this progression lead the religion itself. Judaism is where it is today and the progression of the Jewish faith is where it is. Same religion holding different beliefs. It's not uncommon among in Judaism. Ever hear the phrase "Two Jews three opinions". It would seem to me that Judaism often celebrates differences of opinion and perspective ... unless it involves Jesus. Then many are quick to dismiss the opinion altogether.

 

[ZenMonkey]

No Judaism I specific and denies he was ever a messiah.

Ya think?

No kidding

Swoosh! :slap:

 

[CMike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
I feel like Judaism got left behind in the dark ages of strict written law instead of progressing towards spiritual law's pertaining to the human heart.


Me-

How many millions were murdered in the name of the church again?:cover:

 

[ZenMonkey]

Paul went against Judaism.


No true scottsman,,,,, that because paul was jewish he taught Judaism.


pauls Judaism has always been in question by the way.

Of course it has ... Paul believed Jesus was the messiah. Do those practicing Judaism have Rabbi's and/or high priest's to whom they look to for guidance and what not? Apply this to Jesus by who's name Paul said every knee will bow to God both on heaven and earth. Savior = liberator - lord = high priest/chief. To Him Jesus was sent by God to free them (in part) from old, outdated, and strenuous laws as the son of God. It was a deviation elicited by who he believed was sent by God to liberate the Jews.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
I feel like Judaism got left behind in the dark ages of strict written law instead of progressing towards spiritual law's pertaining to the human heart.


Me-

How many millions were murdered in the name of the church again?:cover:

No question that this was perpetrated and justified using Jesus' name by evil men. Jews are not innocent either. Just take a peek at the OT. I'm just saying