dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Well, if it's lying about the Hebrew Torah, then why should it be trusted at all?
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Judaisms Core
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
Well, if it's lying about the Hebrew Torah, then why should it be trusted at all?
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
No, it's right there between the chapters.
So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
And Elohim spake all these words, saying,
I [am] YHWH thy Elah, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 19:25-20:2
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Because the epistles provide valuable information about the forces that shaped Christianity, when seen from the context of Zechariah 11-13.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Cool. Let's check it out:
Ok, got it. Let's expand it by one more verse on either side. I'll remove the verse and chapter breaks as if we're reading it from a scroll.
... And YHVH said to him, Go, get you down, and you shall come up, you, and Aaron with you; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up to YHVH, lest he break forth upon them. So Moses went down to the people, and spoke to them. And Elohim spoke ( singular ) all these words, saying, Anochi YHVH, ( I am the one and only Eternal creator ) Elohecha ( your mighty divine power ), who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery...
Moses, is not an Elohim, a mighty divine power. This notion that Moses is an Elohim is nothing more than wishful Christian thinking about working wonders like Jesus did thru power and glory of God, etc, etc....
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
If you mean forces like passionate evangelism and how scripture can be warped as a result, then I agree. However Zechariah 11-13, I doubt very highly they are related in the manner you suggest. If we can come to a mutual understanding regarding Exodus 19-20, maybe we can look at 3 chapters of Zechariah and discuss them together.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
And YHWH said unto Moses, See, I have made thee Elohim to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Exodus 7:1
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Right. To Pharaoh. Do you want to adopt Pharaoh's mindset? You know he's the villain in the story. There's other pagans in the story too. Are they positive role models, just because they are in print?
You'd need to find a directive from God to the Jews saying Moses is an Elohim.
GoodAttention
Active Member
And Hashem said unto Moshe, See, I have made thee as Elohim to Pharaoh: and Aharon thy brother shall be thy navi. Exodus 7:1 OJB.
The "as Elohim" and "to Pharaoh" would be significant.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The idea of Moses "working wonders" connects to Christianity via the symbolism of the crucifixion, which is a serpent on a pole. Moses' serpent on a pole goes back to the rod transforming into a serpent when Moses and Aaron were in Pharoah's court.
Not only to Pharaoh. Moses acted as judge of the children of Israel.
And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Then his master shall bring him unto the Elohim; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:5-6
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
"As".... that would be "כאלהים" like Gen 3:5. Famous verse.
כי ידע אלהים כי ביום אכלכם ממנו ונפקחו עיניכם והייתם כאלהים ידעי טוב ורע׃
For God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Here's the Hebrew from Exo 7:1. No Caf.
ויאמר יהוה אל־משה ראה נתתיך אלהים לפרעה ואהרן אחיך יהיה נביאך׃
And the Lord said to Moses, See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet
See it?
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The word "as" doesn't exist in the Hebrew.
Also there is no preposition that would translate as 'a' in 'a god'.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I can stop right here. Didn't I say it was Christian wishful thinking?
Jesus is teaching the disciples to pray "thy will ( the Father's Will ) be done". This Christian wishful thinking is MY-WILL be done. It's not even kosher according to Jesus and he's super lenient.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It doesn't stop the symbolism of the serpent from being meaningful.
GoodAttention
Active Member
This is not a Hebrew translation, but an Orthodox translation into English.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Christian orthodoxy isn't consistent with the meaning of the Hebrew text, where the word elohim is used without prepositions in both verses.
See, I have made thee [a] god to Pharaoh
ראה נתתיך אלהים לפרעה
And God spake all these words, saying (Exodus 20:1)
וידבר אלהים את כל הדברים האלה לאמר
GoodAttention
Active Member
Jewish Orthodox.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
AFAIK Orthodox Judaism is as subset of Rabinnical Judaism, which goes back to the Pharisees. This should help explain the aversion to anything Christian.
GoodAttention
Active Member
Or just adhering to the first commandment...
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
One of the criticisms from the gospels was of making the law burdensome, which relates to the contemporary practice of building a fence around the Torah.
GoodAttention
Active Member
I think they were being extremely polite if they said burdensome.
I would have called the most of the Gospels the scriptures of the apostate pagan idolaters.