Ebionite
Well-Known Member
What specific texts do you think demonstrates that?
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Judaisms Core
- Thread starter Jimmy
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GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
You misunderstand me.
I said "of the apostate pagan idolaters", meaning I do not know what they are interpreting in their scriptures, except to say there must be specific texts that allow for the conclusion Jesus is God, and that worshipping him isn't considered idolatry.
Do you know which texts they are?
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
The basic problem that will take place in this discussion is more about what the word (אלהים) means or better yet, what is the more ancient Israeli / Jewish way to understand the concept of the word.
For example, the word (אלהים) doesn't on its own mean what the word god means in English. In virtually all forms the word god in English involves deity. This is not the case for the word (אלהים) in ancient Hebrew. Ancient Hebrew is based on 3 letter roots called Shoreshim. The Shoreshim of the word (אלהים) is the following:
According to the Etymological Dictionary of Biblical Hebrew: Based on the Commentaries of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch Page 9
Thus, taking the above into account one can address the actual text. The word (נתתיך) can be translated into English as "I will give you...." or "I will make you...." Either one works in translating, yet one is required to know that the statement (נתתיך אלהים) "I will give you strong / having power / powerful" or "I will make you strong / having power / powerful." is connected and then (לפרעה) "to Pharaoh" even one could say, "in the perception of Pharaoh."
The following may help in understanding the above concept.
Attachments
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing.
Somewhat tangential to the discussion, but if you have any insight into the word kasdim I would be very keen to see it.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The first commandment of Exodus 20 is about living beings, the second is about idolatry relating to inanimate objects. The phrase "above my face" [על פני] implies that some the worship of some living beings is acceptable.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3
לא יהיה לך אלהים אחרים על פני
The way I read it, assuming that Jesus is a member of Elohim, worship would be acceptable so long as YHWH remained preeminent in that worship.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
No problem. There are some associate it with the Chaldeans / Kaldu. I.e. the location of Ur Kasdim being Ur of the Kasdim.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
So unlike nephilim, mizraim, and elohim, there is no root derivation for the kasd of kasdim that isn't anachronistic?
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
Preeminent meaning Jesus was subordinate?
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
As an individual, yes. This is problematic for Christians when they describe Jesus as "Lord and Savior"
I, [even] I, [am] YHWH; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
Isaiah 43:11
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
(כשד) Is considered to the root for the word (כשדים). Yet, in the Torah the only use of (כשד) is an individual's name. Kesed son of Nahor. Linquistically, we don't have a use for the word (כשד) beyond the use of it as a name of someone in ancient times. Not all names, from that time, are of Hebrew origin. I.e. someone in Mesopotamia several thousand years ago named their son Kesed in his local language. It is isn't considered to be an important issue from the Torah perspective as to why Nahor named is son Kesed. There are others who name had a clear meaning and a reason given in the Torah as to why.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Also, nephilim and elohim are not a nationality. With Mitzrayim the Torah has a purpose in explaining more details about them because obviously they had a longer intertwined history with the Israeli / Jewish people than the Kasdim did.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
Interestingly, the place where Abraham was born, and the people who destroyed the first temple are both related to kasd/kesed.
Also Kesed appearing to be named after the place Nahor is born and ended up leaving.
Thanks for the information.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
So kasdim could refer to a type or class of people, where kasd would be the descriptive but in another language?
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
The Bavelim (Babylonians) who destroyed the 1st Temple were no longer the Kasdim of Avraham ben-Terahh's time. One can say that nationally, culturally, etc. we are talking about different groups of people. The elements of the Bavel society that destroyed the Temple also existed seperate from elements of the Kasdim culture. It is like saying that the Bavel of the past was made of up different ethnic groups.
Thus, one can come up with various reasons why Kesed was named Kesed or what the word means from studying the ancient Akkadian language. Yet, from the perspective of Jewish Hebrew linquistics - there is no shoresh background for the word (כשד) outside of it being someone's name, and their legacy was the Kasdim people. It is perfectly acceptable, linquistically in Hebrew to accept what ever meaning comes from the Kasdi language or Akkadian. It is one of the reasons that I study ancient languages like Akkadian and Egyptian from time to time to have a better understanding of how the region developed during the time of the Tanakh.
Please show where does the commandment come from? And what do you mean with "such a thing"?
Thank you, please tell also, to what is that anticipation based on?
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
It could. It all depends on what the history of the region tells us. Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon 1138–1204 CE (known as the Rambam) in his book Moreh Nevuchim wrote that the Torah would be better understand when additional archeological and historical information about past cultures if found. This has been completely the case.
Thus, there are some situations where when speaking of Kasdim we are talking about a particular ethnic group that once existed. There are times where "modernly" the language carries the name of the culture that the language came from. It could be doubtful that 4,000 years someone came up with a name for their language. It is possible that outsiders may have called what they spoke based on their name for the people who spoke it.
These are all elements of historical study to understand how peoples who are now long gone, and in many cases left no clear description of thier linquistics or culture saw the world they lived in.
I agree, only God anoints with spirit, humans can only use other methods. But isn't the core meaning with the word anointed that the person is dedicated to something? If so, I think the method is not crucial, when the meaning is essentially the same.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
The Kasdim culture appears to be very boorish, disrespectful, and lacking in class. It seems even in the history of the Chaldeans they didn't know where they came from, although they were capable warriors. You could describe them as a fallen class of people who appeared from nowhere in Meospotamia.