Just 43% of Americans Identify as Protestant

[Subduction Zone]

It's a "public forum." That's how people roll on them. Say something in the public air, a member of the public can comment.
Don't like it then don't participate.

Actually, he did call you out on participating on that other thread, you were there, if you paid attention at all there you'd know the answers to these questions.

I thought he was. He is without excuse. He appears not to understand when his questions are answered either.

Oh well. One cannot force someone to learn from their errors.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Also, just what “knowledge” brought you to your conclusions regarding God?

Reading the Bible in my time of need. I realized god isn't a loving father I was taught, but a blood thirsty, wicked, cruel, and evil tyrant who has scant traces of "love" and "patients" and "mercy." "Kill them all" was god's command long before it was a Papal bull. The Church didn't really go over all these that much, and spun them around and twisted them into something looking good, but reading the Bible entirely from cover to cover is what lead to me reason that Jehovah is a great evil if he exists.

 

[halbhh]

According to a recent (2019) Pew poll. Pew is one of the most respected polls in America so there's no reason to doubt their finds. Other findings:

* 65% of American adults identified as Christians, DOWN 12% from 2009

* atheist, agnostic or “nones" now stands at 26%, UP from 17% in 2009.

In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace

Extrapolating outward at 12% per decade that means that in 2070 only 5% of Americans will identify as Protestant.

Truthfully, I was shocked by these statistics. And I have mentioned them to a number of Christians on this board. They seem to be glib on the matter, not really caring from all appearances that their faith is dying on the vine. One member went so far as to question the reliability of any poll that showed Christianity in a negative light. They asked question like, "What specific questions were asked, how did the pollsters ask the question, were they broad or specific in their questions, what kinds of question did they ask, how broad was the sampling, and on and on....a veritable feast of red herring to distract from the very simple finding that Christianity is on the way out in America, following Europe's even more stark downward trend.

So I have to ask a few direct questions:

Why is God allowing his faith to bleed to death? Why doesn't God intervene in some miraculous way to stop the hemorrhaging of Christians away from Jesus?

One mighty visible miracle from God could stop people from leaving Christianity. All God has to do is speak up audibly like he did on Mt. Sinai. If he did it then he can do it again.

Why Doesn't God Intervene?????

I was an unusual child (everyone is, but I was more daring perhaps than many).

When I was young, 5, 7, 11 years old, 15... I used to ask people very probing questions, and in a lot of different places, a lot of different churches. We'd go and visit, or move, and I'd approach someone and ask them things like:

"Do you believe in God?"
and I'd watch very carefully their eyes, and not even hear the words they were saying....

or...
"Do you really believe in God?"

or...
"Wow, do you really think he made a blind man see?"

And I'd watch the person's face very very closely, and couldn't even tell you what words they said usually, but I knew their real attitude after I watched, and listened to the small tones of their voice. Sometimes the wording helped too.

I found that only a small portion believed.

This was 40-50 years ago mostly.

Can you see the implication?

What I think has happened in the last couple of decades is that a lot of those non believers don't feel a need to go to a church anymore.

It's hard to say whether faith itself is less common. It seems....a little more common, than in the past, but that might be partly because this area we moved to (the 7th state I've spend more than just a couple of months living in) just has more faith, possibly.

But it's definitely the case the always-were non-believers mostly don't feel a need to pretend to believe anymore.

I actually think that's a very good thing!

It's like pope Francis said: it's better to be an atheist than a hypocritical 'Christian'.

 

[Nivek001]

Reading the Bible in my time of need. I realized god isn't a loving father I was taught, but a blood thirsty, wicked, cruel, and evil tyrant who has scant traces of "love" and "patients" and "mercy." "Kill them all" was god's command long before it was a Papal bull. The Church didn't really go over all these that much, and spun them around and twisted them into something looking good, but reading the Bible entirely from cover to cover is what lead to me reason that Jehovah is a great evil if he exists.

What brought you to the conclusion that God was not a living father but was blood thirsty, wicked and tyrannical, and cruel?

How does the point that that we all die physically means that God has no mercy or good intentions for us after this life of mortality?

How is the point that it’s believed that this life of mortality is supposed to have trials to deal with because it’s a test means that God does not want us to succeed and become perfected and obtain full happiness?

The belief after all points out that no matter how long this hard life of mortality is. This life is but a moment in comparison to eternity. Are you certain you have the big picture regarding what is believed God has planned for us if we choose in the end to act on faith and follow to the best of our abilities?

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bible makes crimes out of things no one should feel guilty for. Like consensual sex. Or enjoying worldly things while we can.
"Original sin" makes us guilty just for being born. We all deserve Hell. That guilt is not natural.

The Baha'i Faith does not do that to people. We do have some laws but we are encouraged to enjoy what God has allowed us and to thank God for it. I do not do very well at that because I tend to be ascetic by choice.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

And of course the Baha'i Faith does not have any such thing as Original Sin.

 

[halbhh]

What brought you to the conclusion that Gid was not a living father but was blood thirsty, wicked and tyrannical, and cruel?

How does the point that that we all die physically means that God has no mercy or good intentions for us after this life of mortality?

How is the point that it’s believed that this life of mortality is supposed to have trials to deal with because it’s a test means that God does not want us to succeed and become perfected and obtain full happiness?

The belief after all points out that no matter how long this hard life of mortality is. This life is but a moment in comparison to eternity. Are you certain you have the big picture regarding what is believed God has planned for us if we choose in the end to act on faith and follow to the best of our abilities?

A lot of work and effort has been put into repainting the contents of the old testament by carefully removing isolated bits from their full context and situation, painting the worst possible imagined situation onto them, and often then additionally just assuming death of this body is the final death. Of course if it were the case that this mortal body dying is the final real death, then God would be a murderer in effect, really, if that were so. You've correctly pointed out though that assumption is itself a foreign import into these texts.

 

[halbhh]

The Baha'i Faith does not do that to people.

Neither does Christianity when presented in accurate true form, but there are some minorities with false doctrines, of course, since the population identifying as Christian is about 2 billion, and churches are highly diverse.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

What brought you to the conclusion that Gid was not a living father but was blood thirsty, wicked and tyrannical, and cruel?

How does the point that that we all die physically means that God has no mercy or good intentions for us after this life of mortality?

How is the point that it’s believed that this life of mortality is supposed to have trials to deal with because it’s a test means that God does not want us to succeed and become perfected and obtain full happiness?

The belief after all points out that no matter how long this hard life of mortality is. This life is but a moment in comparison to eternity. Are you certain you have the big picture regarding what is believed God has planned for us if we choose in the end to act on faith and follow to the best of our abilities?

It's not the fact we die. It's how God planed it out so that the vast majority of us would die horribly and in such great agony that is the issue. Is God bloodthirsty? I think so. He made it so that the only way the animal kingdom can survive is by half the animals tearing out the throats of the other half of animals. Couldn't he have made animals herbivores or something? Did he have to create parasites that feed on hosts to exists? Viruses whose only function is to get people sick of COVID and malaria and have them die in great misery and pain? Did it really have to be this way? What a world to have to live in! What a God!

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Why do you think it doesn’t matter? Do you figure that there are no different subjects of study?

Also, just what “knowledge” brought you to your conclusions regarding God?

The fact there isn't a dime's worth of evidence Jesus or the apostles lived. The fact the gospels were written by Greeks who didn't know Jesus or were anywhere near Israel when they wrote the stories 50-100 years later. The fact we don't hear a peep from God in this world. He's AWOL.

 

[halbhh]

It's not the fact we die. It's how God planed it out so that the vast majority of us would die horribly and in such great agony that is the issue. Is God bloodthirsty? I think so. He made it so that the only way the animal kingdom can survive is by half the animals tearing out the throats of the other half of animals. Couldn't he have made animals herbivores or something? Did he have to create parasites that feed on hosts to exists? Viruses whose only function is to get people sick of COVID and malaria and have them die in great misery and pain? Did it really have to be this way? What a world to have to live in! What a God!

If even one person dies a final death here in this body, it would make that version of 'god' a murderer, right. That's how I'd see that.

But that's an opposite kind of 'god' than the one in the common bible, where death is over and over pointed to (both new and old testament) as only "sleep" and from which all will awaken.

That's the "God" of the bible: the one Who reverses death and suffering.

God is the one Who undoes suffering, defeats...wrongness.

Ends the evils we do. The one Who redeems us from ourselves...if we will let him.
He doesn't force that on us though.

He just gives us a lot of ways and chances to realize we are mortal and there should be something more... Each time I've suffered, it seems to have helped me.
He gives so many chances.

 

[Nivek001]

A lot of work and effort has been put into repainting the contents of the old testament by carefully removing isolated bits from their full context and situation, painting the worst possible imagined situation onto them, and often then additionally just assuming death of this body is the final death. Of course if it were the case that this mortal body dying is the final real death, then God would be a murderer in effect, really, if that were so. You've correctly pointed out though that assumption is itself a foreign import into these texts.

Repainting the contents of the Old Testament such as?

Why did you bring up the about God being a murderer if this life is the final life we have when you haven’t established that this life is the final life we have?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What brought you to the conclusion that God was not a living father but was blood thirsty, wicked and tyrannical, and cruel?

Did you not read my post? I answered that question.

How does the point that that we all die physically means that God has no mercy or good intentions for us after this life of mortality?

Huh? I never mentioned anything like that.

How is the point that it’s believed that this life of mortality is supposed to have trials to deal with because it’s a test means that God does not want us to succeed and become perfected and obtain full happiness?

Again, what? That has nothing to do with my post.

The belief after all points out that no matter how long this hard life of mortality is. This life is but a moment in comparison to eternity. Are you certain you have the big picture regarding what is believed God has planned for us if we choose in the end to act on faith and follow to the best of our abilities?

Eternity hasn't been proven, life after death has not been proven, and when it comes to Jehovah, due to the Bible having things like slavery, tearing the unborn from the womb as an act of war, killing people over trivial nonsense, and all the violence and genocide carried out by him, I'd rather kick him in the balls than worship him again. I don't want the Kingdom anymore if it means groveling before some god who's idea of "righteous judgement" is to keep judging and killing people and condemning them for eternity instead of fixing the system.

 

[Nivek001]

It's not the fact we die. It's how God planed it out so that the vast majority of us would die horribly and in such great agony that is the issue. Is God bloodthirsty? I think so. He made it so that the only way the animal kingdom can survive is by half the animals tearing out the throats of the other half of animals. Couldn't he have made animals herbivores or something? Did he have to create parasites that feed on hosts to exists? Viruses whose only function is to get people sick of COVID and malaria and have them die in great misery and pain? Did it really have to be this way? What a world to have to live in! What a God!

How does suffering involved in many deaths means that the suffering more than temporary?

How is suffering when we die any different than suffering while living? How is any suffering done in life, including any suffering taking place when one dies, mean it only shows that God is bloodthirsty as opposed to that this life was meant to be a temporary testing period?

You go on about how this world of either eat or being eaten is just an assumption that God is just bloodthirsty even though it’s also believed that the following would eventually occur?

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. Isaiah 11:7 KJV

Again, just because a teacher gives us tests for us to take does not automatically mean the teacher delights in the suffering of the students cramming for the midterm or final. Eventually class will be dismissed, even when the class has carnivorous lions, parasites, and diseases in it.

You seem to be stuck on only this life in your assessment. Why is that?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

How does suffering involved in many deaths means that the suffering more than temporary?

How is suffering when we die any different than suffering while living? How is any suffering done in life, including any suffering taking place when one dies, mean it only shows that God is bloodthirsty as opposed to that this life was meant to be a temporary testing period?

You go on about how this world of either eat or being eaten is just an assumption that God is just bloodthirsty even though it’s also believed that the following would eventually occur?

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. Isaiah 11:7 KJV

Again, just because a teacher gives us tests for us to take does not automatically mean the teacher delights in the suffering of the students cramming for the midterm or final. Eventually class will be dismissed, even when the class has carnivorous lions, parasites, and diseases in it.

You seem to be stuck on only this life in your assessment. Why is that?

You have this rose-colored view of the world and it's your faith that helps you get over the humps. I have no rose-colored glasses. I see the world as it is--some nice sights and places to visit but the bottom line is it is a truly ugly place morally and naturally (nature) to be living with all the disease, starvation, natural disasters and everyday struggles just to keep body and soul together. Verses from Isaiah don't erase the true horror of the suffering each of us must endure--and for what? What's the point? To build moral character? I'm as moral as I need to be and I could have done it without the suffering, thank you. There wasn't any need for it. It didn't do a thing for me except to help crush my faith by realizing God doesn't answer prayer, he doesn't communicate with us--and He simply doesn't care about us. You ask do I think God is bloodthirsty. Being a deist I don't believe God does anything in this world. But I think He engineered how the world would evolve pretty badly. As I don't believe in an afterlife. For me once I die everything ends. Consequently I have no scruples about electing assisted physician death should I be diagnosed with a terminal illness.

 

[Nivek001]

The fact there isn't a dime's worth of evidence Jesus or the apostles lived. The fact the gospels were written by Greeks who didn't know Jesus or were anywhere near Israel when they wrote the stories 50-100 years later. The fact we don't hear a peep from God in this world. He's AWOL.

How does no irrefutable evidence for the world to see have any bearing on whether or not there is a God who wants us to rely on faith in that God as opposed to relying on established evidence for the world to see?

If the belief was that God didn’t want us to rely on faith but on evidence for the world to see and no such evidence is presented fir the world to see, then your point of lacking such evidence would have merit. However, that is NOT what is believed by many who follow the Abrahamic based religions.

Where us the proof that the earliest Greek versions of the Gospels were never derived from any earlier Aramaic or Hebrew versions? Even Scholars do not know for a fact who originally wrote any of the Gospels, so how do you know none of the authors ever met Jesus? How would just the point that the earliest known versions of the Gospels were written in Greek prove that the earliest versions were only written in Greek?

After all, if all the Gospels were only intended for Greek speaking peoples, why does the Gospel if Matthew tried to go over how Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophesy such as the lineage of Mary’s husband Joseph, Jesus being born in the city of David, or Jesus’s final entry into Jerusalem riding upon a donkey? Matthew deals with showing to the Jews of that day the role of Jesus fulfilling some Old Testament prophecies.

Where is your proof that God does not reveal truths to prophets in modern times?

 

[Subduction Zone]

How does no irrefutable evidence for the world to see have any bearing on whether or not there is a God who wants us to rely on faith in that God as opposed to relying on established evidence for the world to see?

If the belief was that God didn’t want us to rely on faith but on evidence for the world to see and no such evidence is presented fir the world to see, then your point of lacking such evidence would have merit. However, that is NOT what is believed by many who follow the Abrahamic based religions.

Where us the proof that the earliest Greek versions of the Gospels were never derived from any earlier Aramaic or Hebrew versions? Even Scholars do not know for a fact who originally wrote any of the Gospels, so how do you know none of the authors ever met Jesus? How would just the point that the earliest known versions of the Gospels were written in Greek prove that the earliest versions were only written in Greek?

After all, if all the Gospels were only intended for Greek speaking peoples, why does the Gospel if Matthew tried to go over how Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophesy such as the lineage of Mary’s husband Joseph, Jesus being born in the city of David, or Jesus’s final entry into Jerusalem riding upon a donkey? Matthew deals with showing to the Jews of that day the role of Jesus fulfilling some Old Testament prophecies.

Where is your proof that God does not reveal truths to prophets in modern times?

Some of your questions are backwards, the last one for example. The burden of proof always lies upon the person that makes the positive claim. And when it comes to supporting the Jesus stories with reliable sources that simply does not seem to happen.

As for Matthew it appears that he was writing for Greek speaking Jews. It appears that there were a fair number of them at that time. His virgin birth story was partially based upon a misinterpretation found in the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Torah. Why use that if your audience is Hebrew or Aramaic speaking Jews?

 

[Colt]

It's a "public forum." That's how people roll on them. Say something in the public air, a member of the public can comment.
Don't like it then don't participate.

Actually, he did call you out on participating on that other thread, you were there, if you paid attention at all there you'd know the answers to these questions.

***MOD EDIT***

I wasn’t on your Satan thread, that’s why I asked you if you were a real Satan worshiper or just joking on your signature. You’ve answered the question.

 

[Nivek001]

Did you not read my post? I answered that question.

Huh? I never mentioned anything like that.

Again, what? That has nothing to do with my post.

Eternity hasn't been proven, life after death has not been proven, and when it comes to Jehovah, due to the Bible having things like slavery, tearing the unborn from the womb as an act of war, killing people over trivial nonsense, and all the violence and genocide carried out by him, I'd rather kick him in the balls than worship him again. I don't want the Kingdom anymore if it means groveling before some god who's idea of "righteous judgement" is to keep judging and killing people and condemning them for eternity instead of fixing the system.

The list only went over what you felt but you didn’t provide any factual knowledge proving that Gid is wicked and bloodthirsty. If there is more to show that is actually proof of your claims then present it as being fact not just your take.

Did you not read my post? I answered that question.

Not when I posted the question. I read a later response from you but you didn’t actually give why you figure that just because there is suffering in this life means that God is wicked and bloodthirsty as opposed to simply making this life of suffering being due us being tested.

Huh? I never mentioned anything like that.

You did mention that God puts us into a life of misery and death, and that just somehow shows that God delights in our suffering, but you didn’t establish HOW simply having us be in this life of suffering can only be because God delights in our suffering and not in any way would be due to any other reason.


Again, what? That has nothing to do with my post

Your point was that just because there is suffering that automatically means God delights in our suffering and that’s all there is to it. How is that the case; especially when it’s believed that this life has suffering in it because it’s means if testing us to see if we will do what is right, and that God wants us to prevail in doing what us right despite this life having such hardships in it?

Eternity hasn't been proven, life after death has not been proven,

Neither has it been proven that there is no eternal God who wants us to rely on faith in him instead of relying on established evidence for the world to see, so what’s your point?


and when it comes to Jehovah, due to the Bible having things like slavery, tearing the unborn from the womb as an act of war, killing people over trivial nonsense, and all the violence and genocide carried out by him, I'd rather kick him in the balls than worship him again.

Trivial nonsense such as what? How does God letting a society have slavery mean that God means to have slavery for all peoples over all periods of time and that there are no ramifications for those who at he time had slaves?

(Ecclesiastes 3:1-8)

God also didn’t want the tribes of Israel to have a king either, but since they wanted to have a king anyway God permitted it, but God also made them accountable for having a king and dealing with the consequences

What does you wanting to have things your way when it comes to dealing with God mean you have the big eternal picture going beyond all time and space?

Do you claim you know better than someone who is believed to be omniscient? What is your proof that that you really do have the bigger picture of eternity?

I don't want the Kingdom anymore if it means groveling before some god who's idea of "righteous judgement" is to keep judging and killing people and condemning them for eternity instead of fixing the system.

Where is your proof that it’s believed by all the Abrahamic faiths that those who are punished for eternity are unjustly punished? What is your proof that everyone who not fully following God or even not knowing anything about God in their lives will be punished for eternity?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wasn’t on your Satan thread

I was mistaken. My apologies.

that’s why I asked you if you were a real Satan worshiper or just joking on your signature. You’ve answered the question.

Satanists don't worship Satan.
My signature is from a silly, lighthearted tongue-in-cheek song. "How to Satan" actually refers to a very cheesy dad dance in the video.

***MOD EDIT***

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The list only went over what you felt but you didn’t provide any factual knowledge proving that Gid is wicked and bloodthirsty. If there is more to show that is actually proof of your claims then present it as being fact not just your take.

If it has to be explained to you why genocide is bad, why summarily executing everyone is wrong, why killing infants and innocents is wrong, why slavery is wrong, then you have a very seriously flawed moral compass. Anyone or anything who conducts these things should be universally condemned and renounced as evil and wicked.
And people are leaving Christianity because people know these things are wrong, and they know not even god should get to be exempt from hypocrisy by moving the goalposts. He says thou shalt not kill, but what was done was sending bears to maul children to death for making fun of a bald prophet. That is cruel, wicked, and evil.

Where is your proof that it’s believed by all the Abrahamic faiths that those who are punished for eternity are unjustly punished? What is your proof that everyone who not fully following God or even not knowing anything about God in their lives will be punished for eternity?

I belonged to such a church that did teach that very thing.