Just Accidental?

[ArtieE]

Who said anything about old people?

Aging came about as a result of disobedience. Living forever means never getting old, sick or disabled. Those bodies are young and active......clothing or no clothing.

You mean millions of years old minds in the equivalent of bodies that never change or die? And what do you mean "bodies are young and active"? Would they be the equivalent of the bodies of five year olds? Younger? Older?

Breeding like rabbits?

Seriously, I have to wonder about the way your imaginings work.

Isn't breeding like rabbits the quickest way to "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth"?

 

[Deeje]

You mean millions of years old minds in the equivalent of bodies that never change or die? And what do you mean "bodies are young and active"? Would they be the equivalent of the bodies of five year olds? Younger? Older?Isn't breeding like rabbits the quickest way to "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth"?

The fountain of youth has been sought by many since time immemorial. Humans instinctively know that aging is unnatural for them. Ask any old person who still has their mental faculties, how old they feel in their head. Age is a state of body....the mind reaches maturity and stays there, growing in wisdom and knowledge....or at least that was the original plan. Science can tell us how we age, but not why. The process of cell renewal in the human body should theoretically go on indefinitely as it was designed to do. But the death penalty imposed on the first humans, genetically altered that arrangement. Aging, sickness and death have been our lot ever since......but not for much longer, according to the Bible. These things God has promised to eliminate and return us to our original state....restoring all that we lost in Eden.

I can see the wisdom in maturing slowly, gaining experience and knowledge, especially before becoming a parent. I have often said that I would love to be young again, but only if I could retain all that accumulated knowledge of my lifetime. How often I lament the loss of my once active body, frustrated at what my mind wants to do, but my body is no longer capable of fulfilling.

If humans lived for hundreds of years in ancient times, then aging was a very slow process closer to the events in Eden. Successive generations saw a marked decline in their lifespan down to the present "three score and ten" (70 years) mentioned in the Bible. Today, we might be living longer, but certainly not better.

Death is not natural for us, as we are designed to go on living. We all collectively feel that, so we fight to live. And when death overtakes those we love, grieving can last for decades.

'Becoming fruitful and filling the earth' was not something that needed to be done quickly......after all, they had forever to fulfill the mandate.

 

[ArtieE]

The fountain of youth has been sought by many since time immemorial. Humans instinctively know that aging is unnatural for them. Ask any old person who still has their mental faculties, how old they feel in their head.

How old do you feel in your head?

Age is a state of body....the mind reaches maturity and stays there, growing in wisdom and knowledge....

I see. How long would it take for the mind to reach maturity and how long would it thereafter be growing in wisdom and knowledge in the original plan? Millions of years? Billions?

 

[Deeje]

How old do you feel in your head?

That is the point...I don't feel old at all. I grew to maturity and never got older mentally.....hopefully just wiser. Experience is a great teacher, so imagine what an endless life of experiences could teach us.....?

Some people devote their whole lives to the study of just ones species of living thing.....we could have forever to study everything there is to explore on this planet (and maybe others) and never run out of subject matter.

How long would it take for the mind to reach maturity and how long would it thereafter be growing in wisdom and knowledge in the original plan? Millions of years? Billions?

Maturity is an individual thing. We are not robots, but we set our own pace according to our own gifts. Since the human brain possesses unlimited capacity, imagine how much storage potential we have in that marvel of design?

Autistic savants give us a glimpse into the potential we all have for genius.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Here is an interesting translation from the "Complete Jewish Bible"....there is no contradiction. Often when it is said that Jehovah did something, he merely allowed it to happen. He simply did nothing to soften Pharaoh's already hard heart.

Exodus 9:12
"But the Lord strengthened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not hearken to them, as the Lord spoke to Moses.".....
34, 35 "And Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased; so he continued to sin, and he strengthened his heart, he and his servants.
35 And Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the children of Israel go out, as the Lord had spoken through the hand of Moses."

Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 9 (Parshah Va'eira)

I believe this carries the idea better in the original language. God "strengthened" Pharaoh's heart, making it stronger in his defiance than common sense would dictate. Despite his promises to let Israel go if the plagues were stopped, 9 times Pharaoh's heart was unresponsive, totally intent on absolute defiance of Israel's god, despite it being proven that he could not match him in power. The final blow was his own fault.

I think that is semantics Deeje, but the meaning is essentially the same; god caused the man to be defiant of his will.

This is a deity who operates within the period in which his people live. He changed nothing in the world, but allowed humans to build their own empires and to exercise their own free will inside that framework. He then gave his people instructions on how to conduct themselves within that framework.

He has not held generations of humans responsible for anything Adam did....he makes them all individually responsible for what they themselves do with the exercise of their free will. If the world practiced slavery, he taught his people how to treat slaves. In civilizations that practiced idolatry, he warned them not to worship lifeless idols.

He taught people it was okay to beat their slaves with a rod, to within an inch of their lives as long as they didn't kill them. He threatened death to idolaters. I don't think the deity was ever a good moral teacher, and besides what happened to timeless truths? You appear to be saying god is a moral relativist.

In this day and age, he tells us how to live in a world where morality has all but disappeared .

Rubbish, morality both religious and secular is alive and well. If you are talking about sex and sexual "depravity", it has always gone on. Perhaps it is a healthier thing that we talk more about it now than treat it as something shameful, something sinful, something to be swept under the carpet? I would definitely say so.

Violence has always been a feature of humanity, the bible is full of appalling violence, nothing new there. My country was once highly religious, it was instrumental in spreading Christianity across the globe, but now the religion is dead in my country. Guess what? We still have standards of morality, we haven't fallen into an orgy of violence, sexual depravity, and hedonism. It is just that our standards of morality are based on secular principles now, no partiality shown towards any one religion, indeed the religions have to comply with our secular moral codes if they want to remain at liberty. Good thing too I say.

I have yet to see a good theocracy in action myself. Israel was certainly not a good example because of their frequent excursions into false worship.....and no other religiously based model has ever been free of corruption. It goes with humans nature. Power corrupts, just as God warned his people when they demanded a human King. It brought nothing but trouble on the whole nation.

Well a theocracy is, by definition, where a deity is essentially the "head of state"; people live by the holy book. However, theocracies of any religious flavour, have never produced anything good in my view. I'd say the UK was a Christian theocracy in all but name at one point in time, the "divine right of kings" etc. I guess you would say that wasn't real Christianity though, not like what the Watchtower teaches? Ah, there is always a loophole!

It is true, but my pants are not even warm

......witnessing is in my blood and I see it as an obligation to follow through on the commands of the Christ. But I cannot make anyone do anything......Jesus didn't either. He offered his message and some accepted....most didn't. What is unfair about that?
How else are people to make up their minds about things if they don't hear both sides?

We are back to semantics again, I don't really see much difference in "witnessing" and proselytising, and I'm not saying you have no business to do so. This is a religious forum after all! I quite enjoy our little discussions, I'll make a beautiful atheist out of you yet!

 

[Deeje]

I think that is semantics Deeje, but the meaning is essentially the same; god caused the man to be defiant of his will.

Thank God for semantics...especially where translation is concerned.

The KJV incorrectly used the word "suffer" at Matthew 19:14......until this error was clarified, many were led to believe that children who suffered went straight into the arms of Jesus when they died. That verse has nothing to do with literal suffering. Just as God had nothing to do with making Pharaoh's heart any harder than it already was.

He taught people it was okay to beat their slaves with a rod, to within an inch of their lives as long as they didn't kill them. He threatened death to idolaters. I don't think the deity was ever a good moral teacher, and besides what happened to timeless truths? You appear to be saying god is a moral relativist.

He allows free will, which is shaped by our environment. In ages past when the gods of the nations were invoked in any armed conflict, Israel's God had to be seen to be superior. It was the only way to demonstrate his power....to show the other gods to be inept....impotent.

"God’s Law stated that kidnapping and selling a human was punishable by death. Furthermore, Jehovah provided guidelines to protect slaves. For example, a slave who was maimed by his master would be set free. If a slave died because his master beat him, the master could be punished with death. Women captives could become slaves, or they could be taken as wives. But they were not to be used for mere sexual gratification. The gist of the Law must have led right-hearted Israelites to treat slaves with respect and kindness, as if these were hired laborers.—Exodus 20:10; 21:12, 16,26, 27; Leviticus 22:10, 11; Deuteronomy 21:10-14.

Some Jews voluntarily became slaves to their fellow Jews in order to repay debts. This practice protected people from starvation and actually allowed many to recover from poverty. Furthermore, at key junctures in the Jewish calendar, slaves were to be released if they so desired. (Exodus 21:2; Leviticus 25:10; Deuteronomy 15:12) Commenting on these laws regarding slaves, Jewish scholar Moses Mielziner stated that a “slave could never cease to be a man, he was looked upon as a person possessing certain natural human rights, with which the master even could not with impunity interfere.” What a stark contrast to the abusive systems of slavery that mar the annals of history!"

Did God Condone the Slave Trade? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Rubbish, morality both religious and secular is alive and well. If you are talking about sex and sexual "depravity", it has always gone on. Perhaps it is a healthier thing that we talk more about it now than treat it as something shameful, something sinful, something to be swept under the carpet? I would definitely say so.

To the Creator who gave us our reproductive bits and told us how to conduct ourselves where the transmission of life was concerned, it was only to be exercised within the confines of legal marriage. Since marriage is practiced in all cultures, it is obviously God's arrangement. Like the flood story spans all cultures, confirming that it must have been an actual event in early history, retold and embellished in the retelling.

Violence has always been a feature of humanity, the bible is full of appalling violence, nothing new there. My country was once highly religious, it was instrumental in spreading Christianity across the globe, but now the religion is dead in my country. Guess what? We still have standards of morality, we haven't fallen into an orgy of violence, sexual depravity, and hedonism. It is just that our standards of morality are based on secular principles now, no partiality shown towards any one religion, indeed the religions have to comply with our secular moral codes if they want to remain at liberty. Good thing too I say.

Violence came with a knowledge of evil.

Cain killed his brother in a violent, pre-meditated act of jealous rage. Humans have been violent ever since. God is not the originator of violence.

Because all things in nature are balanced, there is an equal opposite for everything. The knowledge of good and evil (opposites) was originally placed in God's hands because free willed beings can sometimes confuse them. Humans were not designed to determine such things for themselves.....God would be the arbiter of what was good and bad for his children. As long as they obeyed him, no harm would ever have come to them.

In contrast to the Bible's standards of morality, humans have indeed fallen in sexual depravity by comparison. Its all in the definition.

"Religion", especially "Christianity" was 'off the rails' long before it reached England. It was Jesus himself who foretold that "weeds" of false Christianity would be sown in among the genuine "wheat".
Christendom was never the "wheat" in the first place.
It was also foretold that the first thing to go down when God brings an end to this world system, is false religion.....all of it.
This is the reason why religion is losing its grip on so many in today's world. People are being set up for the withdrawal of what they now consider redundant religion and its influence on the masses.

Well a theocracy is, by definition, where a deity is essentially the "head of state"; people live by the holy book. However, theocracies of any religious flavour, have never produced anything good in my view. I'd say the UK was a Christian theocracy in all but name at one point in time, the "divine right of kings" etc. I guess you would say that wasn't real Christianity though, not like what the Watchtower teaches? Ah, there is always a loophole!

It is human nature to look for loopholes. When Adam was asked for a confession of his crime, the first thing he did was blame the woman....then he blamed God for giving her to him......nothing much has changed really.

If humans really want to do anything, regardless of what it is, they will find a way to justify it.

From the inception of Roman Catholicism in the 4th century, "Christianity" became a total sham....so yes, it wasn't real Christianity.....but that has little to do with what the Watchtower teaches....its what the Bible teaches. We base all of our teachings on the whole Bible......not just convenient bits of it.

This is a religious forum after all! I quite enjoy our little discussions, I'll make a beautiful atheist out of you yet!

Don't hold your breath though....will ya?

 

[ArtieE]

In ages past when the gods of the nations were invoked in any armed conflict, Israel's God had to be seen to be superior. It was the only way to demonstrate his power....to show the other gods to be inept....impotent

For those who are interested in what the Bible says about other gods:

"The idea that there are other “gods” who exist as real supernatural beings, albeit infinitely inferior to the only Creator and Redeemer, pervades the Bible. The Psalms fairly explode with evidence. “There is none like you among the gods, O Lord” (86:8); “For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; he is to be revered above all gods” (96:4); “Our Lord is above all gods” (135:5); “Ascribe to Yahweh, [you] gods, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength” (29:1, my trans.); “He is exalted above all gods” (97:7); “For Yahweh is a great god, and a great king above all gods” (95:3, my trans.). And so on."
The Bible’s Many Gods | Gerald McDermott

The knowledge of good and evil (opposites) was originally placed in God's hands

By whom? Who placed the knowledge of good and evil in God's hands?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

In ages past when the gods of the nations were invoked in any armed conflict, Israel's God had to be seen to be superior. It was the only way to demonstrate his power....to show the other gods to be inept....impotent.

Judges 1:19 The Lord was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron.

these can hurt God's army

To the Creator who gave us our reproductive bits and told us how to conduct ourselves where the transmission of life was concerned, it was only to be exercised within the confines of legal marriage.

Curiously, the angel wasn't married to Mary ...

Since marriage is practiced in all cultures

All?

God is not the originator of violence.

Creation is just as violent as destruction.

As long as they obeyed him, no harm would ever have come to them.

They were obeying Him up to that point. God didn't have time to keep His kids away from a lizard?

In contrast to the Bible's standards of morality, humans have indeed fallen in sexual depravity by comparison. Its all in the definition.

I've come to the conclusion that as long as it involves consenting adult humans (and inanimate, nonsentient toys), whatever. I don't have to like it, but only involving other sentient beings without legal consent rights or involving non-consenting adult humans causes practical harm. I just think we have bigger fish to fry than what toys are used or how many people there were at the party.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Thank God for semantics...especially where translation is concerned.

Deeje, so much of your post made me go , you are clearly someone deeply sold on the Watchtower message. You will justify and defend it no matter what I suspect. Even reading your own interpretation of the "Jewish" scripture you seemed to basically confirm my understanding of it! Has it never occurred to you that god may have anticipated problems with "semantics" and made the message so obvious a child could understand? No, hold on, The Tower of Babel, it's our fault again right? Silly me!

The KJV incorrectly used the word "suffer" at Matthew 19:14......until this error was clarified, many were led to believe that children who suffered went straight into the arms of Jesus when they died. That verse has nothing to do with literal suffering. Just as God had nothing to do with making Pharaoh's heart any harder than it already was.

You mean satan's translation of the bible right? The one that kept the gospel message alive for centuries until the Watchtower came along in 1879 and began to educate those under the "evil" spell of Christendom? For an enemy of god I think that satan has been a pretty good employee of the deity, just a shame the vast majority of humanity is going to be annihilated for sincerely believing the wrong translation! If only god was a little more proactive!

He allows free will, which is shaped by our environment.

Sorry, but that sounds like moral relativism again. If the man next door has a slave, god will permit me my "free will" to own a slave as well? He didn't think to say "No, nobody will own another human being, it is immoral"? He has plenty to say about what clothes we should wear, when sex is permissible, what foods we should eat, but it never occurred to him that owning another human is an odious idea and should be prohibited? Do you think slavery is moral concept? Serious question, would you be happy to think of anyone being made a slave?

In ages past when the gods of the nations were invoked in any armed conflict, Israel's God had to be seen to be superior. It was the only way to demonstrate his power....to show the other gods to be inept....impotent.

"God’s Law stated that kidnapping and selling a human was punishable by death. Furthermore, Jehovah provided guidelines to protect slaves. For example, a slave who was maimed by his master would be set free. If a slave died because his master beat him, the master could be punished with death. Women captives could become slaves, or they could be taken as wives. But they were not to be used for mere sexual gratification. The gist of the Law must have led right-hearted Israelites to treat slaves with respect and kindness, as if these were hired laborers.—Exodus 20:10; 21:12, 16,26, 27; Leviticus 22:10, 11; Deuteronomy 21:10-14.

Some Jews voluntarily became slaves to their fellow Jews in order to repay debts. This practice protected people from starvation and actually allowed many to recover from poverty. Furthermore, at key junctures in the Jewish calendar, slaves were to be released if they so desired. (Exodus 21:2; Leviticus 25:10; Deuteronomy 15:12) Commenting on these laws regarding slaves, Jewish scholar Moses Mielziner stated that a “slave could never cease to be a man, he was looked upon as a person possessing certain natural human rights, with which the master even could not with impunity interfere.” What a stark contrast to the abusive systems of slavery that mar the annals of history!"

Did God Condone the Slave Trade? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I have said before that I do not consider the bible to be an authority, especially when used to defend an appalling practice like slavery. I'll let my friends at Rational Wiki counter your bible quotes.
Slavery in the Bible - RationalWiki

To the Creator who gave us our reproductive bits and told us how to conduct ourselves where the transmission of life was concerned, it was only to be exercised within the confines of legal marriage. Since marriage is practiced in all cultures, it is obviously God's arrangement. Like the flood story spans all cultures, confirming that it must have been an actual event in early history, retold and embellished in the retelling.

Would have been nice if he told us not to own other human beings as well though, right? None of us would be here if people didn't have sex correct? However, we would all still be here if slavery was prohibited today yes? Just saying!

Violence came with a knowledge of evil.

Cain killed his brother in a violent, pre-meditated act of jealous rage. Humans have been violent ever since. God is not the originator of violence.

Because all things in nature are balanced, there is an equal opposite for everything. The knowledge of good and evil (opposites) was originally placed in God's hands because free willed beings can sometimes confuse them. Humans were not designed to determine such things for themselves.....God would be the arbiter of what was good and bad for his children. As long as they obeyed him, no harm would ever have come to them.

This is probably the main reason for my atheism Deeje. The bible is full of sickening violence either condoned or demanded by the deity. It is a sad outlook for humanity if that thing really is in charge. I'm thinking 10 year old boy pulling the wings of a dragonfly...

Christendom was never the "wheat" in the first place.
It was also foretold that the first thing to go down when God brings an end to this world system, is false religion.....all of it.
This is the reason why religion is losing its grip on so many in today's world. People are being set up for the withdrawal of what they now consider redundant religion and its influence on the masses.

Your religious organisation would never have existed without "false religion" keeping the message of Jesus alive for centuries though correct? Satan has been the custodian of the truth for most of human history since Jesus was crucified correct? Around 8 million JWs in a world of 7.4 billion? He hasn't done a great job in terms of communication!

If humans really want to do anything, regardless of what it is, they will find a way to justify it.

Yes, yes, yes! So damn close! If humans want to believe in anything, regardless of what it is, they will find a way to justify it. Once you get that you open your mind, you look at humanity in a different way.

From the inception of Roman Catholicism in the 4th century, "Christianity" became a total sham....so yes, it wasn't real Christianity.....but that has little to do with what the Watchtower teaches....its what the Bible teaches. We base all of our teachings on the whole Bible......not just convenient bits of it.



Don't hold your breath though....will ya?

I see a lot of parallels between the Watchtower and the RC Church tbh, both very patriarchal and insistent that they are the true holders of truth. The JWs grew out of the Protestant movement, so were always going to be more literal about the bible. Seriously, I'm not expecting to change the mind of a woman who has been a JW for 45 years Deeje, wont stop me trying though!

 

[Olinda]

Thank God for semantics...especially where translation is concerned.

The KJV incorrectly used the word "suffer" at Matthew 19:14......until this error was clarified, many were led to believe that children who suffered went straight into the arms of Jesus when they died. That verse has nothing to do with literal suffering.

@Deeje, could you explain when and where this "error" was "clarified"? An archaic meaning of 'suffer' is permit or allow - as any dictionary will tell you. the word is also used in the same way in Exodus 22:18; does that need "clarification" also?

Just as God had nothing to do with making Pharaoh's heart any harder than it already was.

Then why did God tamper with Pharaoh's heart at all? As the Bible clearly says he did.

.....but that has little to do with what the Watchtower teaches....its what the Bible teaches. We base all of our teachings on the whole Bible......not just convenient bits of it.

I'm afraid it seems to me that your interpretations are quite convenient!

 

[Deeje]

Has it never occurred to you that god may have anticipated problems with "semantics" and made the message so obvious a child could understand? No, hold on, The Tower of Babel, it's our fault again right? Silly me!

I just love the confident way in which you bag out the God of the Bible....and his message.....like you appear to have a clue about any of it.....

Seriously...where does this attitude come from?

The directions given to the first humans were simple enough for a child to understand.....

In the Genesis account, all humans had to do was what any parent requires of their children....."just do as you are told". Why do parents tell their children NOT to do something?.....it's usually for their own good...correct? Obedience wasn't that difficult in their case.

The tower of Babel was another example of humans doing their own thing and ignoring the Creator's directions. God used it as another 'stopgap' measure, just like the flood. It was stated that if God did not derail their plans, "nothing they had in mind to do would be unattainable for them". There is always a reason for what God does with beings who possess free will. He does not interfere with their exercise of it, but when it is abused, there are consequences. That is reasonable to me.

You mean satan's translation of the bible right? The one that kept the gospel message alive for centuries until the Watchtower came along in 1879 and began to educate those under the "evil" spell of Christendom? For an enemy of god I think that satan has been a pretty good employee of the deity, just a shame the vast majority of humanity is going to be annihilated for sincerely believing the wrong translation! If only god was a little more proactive!

Satan's translation?

It was the KJV I studied with the Witnesses all those years ago. Its not the best translation in the world but it still contains the Bible's basic message. If God can inspire and preserve his word down through centuries of time despite all attempts to destroy or distort its contents, I am sure he can preserve its basic message. Its not exactly rocket science.

Do you think slavery is moral concept? Serious question, would you be happy to think of anyone being made a slave?

You obviously have a rather large hang-up about slavery. Can't say that I like it much either, but slavery in Israel was nothing like the kind practiced by the nations. It was a different time with different standards. I have already addressed this.
God instructed his people as to what was acceptable to him......not good enough for you? Oh well....

Your religious organisation would never have existed without "false religion" keeping the message of Jesus alive for centuries though correct? Satan has been the custodian of the truth for most of human history since Jesus was crucified correct? Around 8 million JWs in a world of 7.4 billion? He hasn't done a great job in terms of communication!

My "religious organisation" is a result of something foretold by Daniel many centuries before the "the time of the end" began. (Daniel 12:9-10) Rather than keep the message alive, Christendom buried it under a mountain of false teachings.....as Jesus said, the "weeds" all but choked out the "wheat" for a time. But God foretold the time when a 'cleansing, whitening and refining' would take place. The "weeds" of Jesus' parable would be identified as part of "Babylon the great" and opportunity would be given to honest-hearted ones to separate themselves from it.....right on time. (Revelation 18:4-5)

Since Jesus also indicated that "few" would be found on the 'cramped and narrow road' to life, God's communication is spot on actually. (Matthew 7:13-14) The Bible's message was never going to appeal to the self-centered masses...it was designed to appeal to those who could love God more than themselves, obey his directives without chafing, and could put his will ahead of their own. He will never force people live a life they don't want.

If humans want to believe in anything, regardless of what it is, they will find a way to justify it. Once you get that you open your mind, you look at humanity in a different way.

Once you get that, a lot of things become very clear. Humanity is basically very predictable.

And, you don't have to open your mind so much that your brains fall out.....along with your heart.

The JWs grew out of the Protestant movement, so were always going to be more literal about the bible. Seriously, I'm not expecting to change the mind of a woman who has been a JW for 45 years Deeje, wont stop me trying though!

JW's did not grow out of any particular church. We are not an offshoot of any particular denomination. A group of men from diverse backgrounds felt drawn together to discuss a common interest for all of them.....Bible truth. Tired of Christendom's twisting of scripture, they undertook a thorough examination of the scriptures to ascertain what the Bible taught on its own...apart from Christendom's doctrines. What they found was shocking. There was basically no Biblical foundation for anything they taught.

Having been raised in that church system, I was already aware of the hypocrisy I saw, but the lies were something else. Finding out that Jesus is not God.....that there is no immortal soul and that hellfire is a pagan invention, was something of a revelation, but not really a surprise.

There is nothing you could say that will cancel out 45 years of solid study. What you offer is kind of pathetic actually.....way too far off base to even put a dent in anything, Sorry......

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I just love the confident way in which you bag out the God of the Bible....and his message.....like you appear to have a clue about any of it.....

The bible is just a book Deeje, and I'm literate which makes me qualified to have an opinion on the content, just like every other literate person on the planet. You don't need to be an expert in Greek or Hebrew to understand what is written, or to read between the lines when it comes to understanding the motives of the authors. Lots of different religious people from the multitude of Christian denominations arduously study the bible, it doesn't make them "experts" in anything other than the interpretation their particular denomination puts on it.

He does not interfere with their exercise of it, but when it is abused, there are consequences. That is reasonable to me

That doesn't sound reasonable to me! The constant guilt trip the deity has us on aside, the "consequences" thing sounds like exactly what it is - a threat.

Satan's translation?

It was the KJV I studied with the Witnesses all those years ago. Its not the best translation in the world but it still contains the Bible's basic message..

Well, yes, it was satan that caused the mistranslation in the gospel of John surely according to the Watchtower surely? It wasn't a simple human error was it? How many other simple human errors got in if that is the case?

If God can inspire and preserve his word down through centuries of time despite all attempts to destroy or distort its contents, I am sure he can preserve its basic message. Its not exactly rocket science.

Hold on, your religious organisation claims the Church got the "basic message" wrong for most of the time between the crucifixion and now, in claiming that Jesus was a deity. I'd call that pretty damn basic!

You obviously have a rather large hang-up about slavery. Can't say that I like it much either, but slavery in Israel was nothing like the kind practiced by the nations. It was a different time with different standards. I have already addressed this.
God instructed his people as to what was acceptable to him......not good enough for you? Oh well....

.

Yes, I do have a "hang-up" about people owning people as property, glad to hear you don't "like it much either"! Oh the love of Jesus!
I completely reject the notion that slavery in Israel was "different" from "the kind practiced by the nations", but we have already done this one. The biblical slavery is appalling and inhumane, to say otherwise is to live in denial. Would you like to be a "biblical" slave, or see your child sold into that "godly" version of slavery?

My "religious organisation" is a result of something foretold by Daniel many centuries before the "the time of the end" began. (Daniel 12:9-10) Rather than keep the message alive, Christendom buried it under a mountain of false teachings.....as Jesus said, the "weeds" all but choked out the "wheat" for a time. But God foretold the time when a 'cleansing, whitening and refining' would take place. The "weeds" of Jesus' parable would be identified as part of "Babylon the great" and opportunity would be given to honest-hearted ones to separate themselves from it.....right on time. (Revelation 18:4-5)

Since Jesus also indicated that "few" would be found on the 'cramped and narrow road' to life, God's communication is spot on actually. (Matthew 7:13-14) The Bible's message was never going to appeal to the self-centered masses...it was designed to appeal to those who could love God more than themselves, obey his directives without chafing, and could put his will ahead of their own. He will never force people live a life they don't want. .

Yeah, every Christian group claims the biblical prophecies are talking about their group! Forgive me for not being impressed!
Jesus did prophecy about the Watchtower as it happens..."by their fruits shall you know them" Jehovah's Witnesses let sex offender interrogate victims - BBC News The ex-Jehovah's Witnesses shunned by their families - BBC News Rotten fruit! False prophets!

There is nothing you could say that will cancel out 45 years of solid study. What you offer is kind of pathetic actually.....way too far off base to even put a dent in anything, Sorry......

I thought as much, you have invested your life in the Watchtower, you are clearly deeply sold on the message, I imagine your whole social life is wrapped up in it as well. Therefore I wasn't expecting you to walk away after reading a few lines from an atheist on a forum! However, I like to get people to think about their certainties and challenge them, nothing wrong with that in religious debates correct?

 

[Deeje]

The bible is just a book Deeje, and I'm literate which makes me qualified to have an opinion on the content, just like every other literate person on the planet. You don't need to be an expert in Greek or Hebrew to understand what is written, or to read between the lines when it comes to understanding the motives of the authors. Lots of different religious people from the multitude of Christian denominations arduously study the bible, it doesn't make them "experts" in anything other than the interpretation their particular denomination puts on it.

It is true, we don't need any of those things to 'read' the Bible......but the one thing everyone needs in order to 'understand' it, is God's spirit. 'Arduously studying' it without the benefit of God's spirit turns it into "just a book". Which is why the multitude of denominations in Christendom can't seem to figure out exactly what it teaches.

We can all believe whatever we wish about the Bible.....and that is the beauty of it. Gotta love free will eh?

The Creator is looking for residents to inhabit the promised "new earth". (2 Peter 3:13-14).....we tell him whether we qualify by the choices we make in this life. There is no place for rebels, or those who want only to practice their own will, without due regard for God's will. He sets the rules...not us.

That doesn't sound reasonable to me! The constant guilt trip the deity has us on aside, the "consequences" thing sounds like exactly what it is - a threat.

What guilt trip? The Creator has placed life or death before all of us.....that's it. He wants us to choose life by obeying him....if we choose not to obey him, death is the consequence....just like Adam. As the Creator, he decides who lives and who doesn't.
He will never force you to obey him or to live a life that you do not choose.....why is that so difficult to comprehend?

You want to argue with him about that? ....go ahead and see where it gets you.

Well, yes, it was satan that caused the mistranslation in the gospel of John surely according to the Watchtower surely? It wasn't a simple human error was it? How many other simple human errors got in if that is the case?

By "mistranslation" I assume you mean John 1:1? That is the main scripture that Christendom uses to make Jesus into a three-headed god. There was no error in John 1:1, just a gross misrepresentation of the Greek word "theos". It means 'a divine mighty one'. It is used in the Bible to denote any being, (both human and spirit) as one possessing power and authority over others. God used the word to describe human judges in Israel, so was Israel instructed to worship them?

It was the Roman Catholic Church that introduced these ideas long after the death of Christ. Since Jesus was Jewish and not Catholic, I can safely assume that the ancient Jews, even though the first century Pharisees rejected Jesus as Messiah, had no belief in a trinity, hellfire or an immortal soul.

Everything in Christendom's doctrines that find their origins in pagan religions can safely be discarded. These include all of the above...none of which were originally taught by either Jews or the first Christians.

Hold on, your religious organisation claims the Church got the "basic message" wrong for most of the time between the crucifixion and now, in claiming that Jesus was a deity. I'd call that pretty damn basic!

No, Christendom didn't just get the message wrong...it abandoned the message altogether. It took the "only true God" of the Jews (John 17:3) and turned him into a three headed freak.

It gave humans a Greek inspired immortal soul, and a demon inspired hell of eternal punishment. Misrepresenting the Creator in such a disgusting fashion is not forgivable according to the scriptures.

God's kingdom was the theme of Jesus entire ministry, but if you ask any church member what God's kingdom is.....you often get a blank look and an embarrassing silence. Jesus said that 'the good news about that Kingdom was to be preached in all the inhabited earth before the "end" would come'. (Matthew 24:14) How can the churches preach about something when they have no knowledge of it?

Yeah, every Christian group claims the biblical prophecies are talking about their group! Forgive me for not being impressed!

I wasn't aware that it was God's job to impress you. If you want find fault with the Creator and his people, you will. He impresses me every day without even trying.

Jesus did prophecy about the Watchtower as it happens..."by their fruits shall you know them" Jehovah's Witnesses let sex offender interrogate victims - BBC News The ex-Jehovah's Witnesses shunned by their families - BBC News Rotten fruit! False prophets!

From your first link...

"A statement from Watch Tower said: "Jehovah's Witnesses abhor child abuse in all of its forms and do not shield wrongdoers from the authorities or from the consequences of their actions. All allegations of abuse are thoroughly investigated and appropriate restrictions are imposed on any person who is guilty of child sexual abuse.

"For years, Jehovah's Witnesses have had a robust child safeguarding policy. The trustees followed the policy by imposing restrictions on the perpetrator and by ensuring that he had no unsupervised contact with children during congregation meetings.

"The trustees will continue to concentrate on doing all that they can to safeguard children and to care for the spiritual needs of the congregation."

From your second link....

"Responding to Sarah's claims, the Jehovah's Witnesses said that while it could not comment on individual cases, "violence, whether physical or emotional, is strongly condemned in the Bible and has no place in a Christian family".

Do you believe everything you see or read in the media? You can if you want. We know that they never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Ever been on the receiving end of an "ex's" description of you? Funny how they are always the poor hapless victim. Ever wonder why a judge needs both sides of a story in order to render a judgment? You want to make judgments about us, having only one side of a story? That is your prerogative.

I have addressed all this before. Believe whatever you like....it seems as if you will anyway.

I thought as much, you have invested your life in the Watchtower, you are clearly deeply sold on the message,

No, actually, I have invested my life in the truth of the Bible's message and I believe that JW's happen to be the only ones who teach it with any accuracy and preach it the way Jesus commanded. (Matthew 28:19-20)
The Watchtower is a Bible society BTW....it prints our literature. We are Jehovah's Witnesses. Just sayin'.....

Sold on the message? You bet I am. But there is no obligation on your part to believe any of it. Free will again you see.

I imagine your whole social life is wrapped up in it as well.

Who fosters friendships with those with whom they have nothing in common? Why would I want close friends that do not share my views and interests? I find spiritual conversation way more stimulating than meaningless small talk.....but that is just me. We are never stuck for something to talk about.....because we are not just friends...we are family.

I have neighbors with whom I am very friendly.

Therefore I wasn't expecting you to walk away after reading a few lines from an atheist on a forum! However, I like to get people to think about their certainties and challenge them, nothing wrong with that in religious debates correct?

Debates are about getting information about both sides of an issue. I like to represent the side of the underdog in this particular issue. Its not the popular side, but I will tell the truth as I understand it and allow the readers to make up their own minds. That is what Jesus did......he told us to do that too.

I have little regard for people who like to assume the worst about others from reading biased news reports.
If you are waiting for us to be perfect, please don't hold your breath.....if Jesus' own apostles had problems dealing with their imperfections, I guess that means we are not expected to be perfect either. We just have to be trying to do our best. I assure you that we do.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

It is true, we don't need any of those things to 'read' the Bible......but the one thing everyone needs in order to 'understand' it, is God's spirit. 'Arduously studying' it without the benefit of God's spirit turns it into "just a book". Which is why the multitude of denominations in Christendom can't seem to figure out exactly what it teaches.

That made me smile because I used to believe the same thing when I was a Christian. Though of course I had the true spirit of god, not like the poor deceived souls in cultish organisations like the Watchtower!
I've left that kind of thinking behind, it feels good to be out of that bubble.

We can all believe whatever we wish about the Bible.....and that is the beauty of it. Gotta love free will eh?

.

I'm a determinist (don't confuse with Nihilist) but we can agree that life is a great thing, and I feel most fortunate to be alive in wealthy country in the 21st century.

There is no place for rebels, or those who want only to practice their own will, without due regard for God's will. He sets the rules...not us.

So there is no place for free will - only the deity's will. Of course we are free to do what we want, only the deity will smash our face in if we do not comply with his will. The Mafia employ similar tactics.

What guilt trip?

All you've done is point out how everything is our fault Deeje, a typical view from someone immersed in an Abrahamic religion. It is a miserable picture you paint; I see no joy in it. How do you know you are going to be part of god's "new world" btw? You have sin in your life right? Sin that is your fault. Why should the deity treat you any different to me? Are you sure of salvation? Your good works are but filthy rags to the deity!

Everything in Christendom's doctrines that find their origins in pagan religions can safely be discarded. These include all of the above...none of which were originally taught by either Jews or the first Christians.

Historians have identified a multitude of Christian groups who had different beliefs about Jesus in the early history of Christianity - Gnostics, Marcionites, Ebionites etc. The more you read about the early history the more it becomes clear the whole thing is a wholly human endeavour and that Christianity borrowed from other traditions. Sincere people sincerely believing what they think god is telling them, just a shame god doesn't tell everyone the same thing!

Do you believe everything you see or read in the media? You can if you want. We know that they never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

No, I certainly don't believe everything I read but the BBC is a reputable and trustworthy source by and large. The stories seemed impartial to me, the BBC has no agenda against the Watchtower, which is why I quoted it. They included a defence from the organisation's spokesperson correct? I'm not "shocked" by such stories btw, despite all the words religionists use about the "transforming" power of god, people are people. When you lift the cover that soon becomes clear. Just people claiming stuff.

I have addressed all this before. Believe whatever you like....it seems as if you will anyway.

Oh yes!

I have little regard for people who like to assume the worst about others from reading biased news reports.
If you are waiting for us to be perfect, please don't hold your breath.....if Jesus' own apostles had problems dealing with their imperfections, I guess that means we are not expected to be perfect either. We just have to be trying to do our best. I assure you that we do.

Which makes the "by their fruits" quote stupid and redundant right? Like a lot of things in the bible.
I don't "assume the worst" about religious organisations, they mostly consist of ordinary people who just want to get on with their lives without harming others. However, I am anti theistic (you may have guessed that by now!) so I'll never hesitate to expose how people who have been "touched by god" curiously continue to live just like those who have not. I'm a secular humanist, the more I read on this forum the more I think it is the way forward for humanity. Nothing personal Deeje, just putting my case like you.

I think we may have drifted from the topic of the thread and as we are two people clearly unconvinced with the arguments of the other it may be prudent to leave it there, but I've enjoyed the exchange. Until next time I'll take my leave!

 

[Deeje]

Nothing personal Deeje, just putting my case like you.

I think we may have drifted from the topic of the thread and as we are two people clearly unconvinced with the arguments of the other it may be prudent to leave it there, but I've enjoyed the exchange. Until next time I'll take my leave!

As you wish. No point in....um.....

But since you brought this up....

So there is no place for free will - only the deity's will. Of course we are free to do what we want, only the deity will smash our face in if we do not comply with his will. The Mafia employ similar tactics.

I'll answer....

The Creator's will is not flawed, nor is the implementation of his will detrimental to humans.....it never was. Life started out so well and if the first humans had only relied on their Creator instead of themselves, we would have seen a totally different outcome.
BTW, the mafia didn't create you....they will make you pay if you don't do as they tell you.....

But might doesn't make right. God has a purpose in his creation, so if we do not want to fit in with that purpose, then we have no place in the future God has planned for this planet.

God gives life and he can take it away....he has the right, so who are we to argue? What does he ask of us that is so impossible anyway? (Micah 6:8)

All you've done is point out how everything is our fault Deeje, a typical view from someone immersed in an Abrahamic religion. It is a miserable picture you paint; I see no joy in it.

Funny, but I see no joy in life without God......what are we living for? What good is this life without hope for something better? Do you depend on man to fix what is wrong with this world? Heaven help you if you do!

Where do you see this world in 5 years?....10 years? Will there even be a world if man keeps messing up the only home he has?

How do you know you are going to be part of god's "new world" btw? You have sin in your life right? Sin that is your fault. Why should the deity treat you any different to me? Are you sure of salvation? Your good works are but filthy rags to the deity!

That sounds a little desperate to me.....

what on earth did your church teach you? The Deity will NOT treat you any different to me if you are willing to obey his reasonable requests to qualify for everlasting life. There are set qualifications for citizenship in God's Kingdom.....we can all qualify if we want to, but God will not force any of us to comply with his requirements against our will. How is that unfair?

The whole point of Jesus' death is to forgive what is not our fault. Sin is an inheritance....not something we had any say in. (Romans 5:12) But that doesn't give us the right to use it as an excuse to do wrong. We have choices. Adam and Eve had choices.....we reap the consequences of their choices....but it is not without benefits in the long term.

Right at the outset in Eden, God stepped in with the solution to the problem. (Genesis 3:15) He promised a seed who would deal satan (the first rebel) a fatal head wound.....but not until after the devil had dealt him a temporary heel wound. (his death and resurrection)

These are beings who exist outside of earth time, so this whole scenario is carried out in the timing of their realm, not ours. It took 2,000 years for the "seed" to make his first appearance....it has taken another 2,000 years for him to make his second. All that God purposed in the beginning will be returned to us....what we lost will be given back. Valuable lessons are learned, free will is preserved as the gift it was meant to be, and God's purpose is carried out exactly as he planned.....all within the timeframe of the "seventh day", which will then have its rightful conclusion......all will be declared, "very good"....just like all the other "days". The big picture is bigger than most people imagine.

Historians have identified a multitude of Christian groups who had different beliefs about Jesus in the early history of Christianity - Gnostics, Marcionites, Ebionites etc. The more you read about the early history the more it becomes clear the whole thing is a wholly human endeavour and that Christianity borrowed from other traditions.

Don't forget who is running this show. (1 John 5:19) Soon after the last apostle John completed his contribution to the Christian scriptures, he passed away. The devil did his thing and oversowed the same "field" with "weeds"....this is Christianity from the second century onward. It would not be until "the time of the end" that God would 'cleanse and refine' his people, supplying knowledge and understanding that were previously held back. (Daniel 12:9-10) Those who refused to be cleansed, would understand nothing.

Sincere people sincerely believing what they think god is telling them, just a shame god doesn't tell everyone the same thing!

He does actually......just as Jesus foretold, the "good news about God's Kingdom" has been preached very extensively "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" (Matthew 24:14)......no one will be able to say that God did not send someone to warn them about his intentions. They refuse the message because they look down on the messengers. Just like the people of Noah's day....no one thought the stupid old man building the big box had anything of value to tell them. (Matthew 24:37-39) History repeats because humans do not learn the lessons from the past.

Which makes the "by their fruits" quote stupid and redundant right? Like a lot of things in the bible.

In my experience, the fruits are all there, (there are no perfect people, so sometimes we get it wrong) but when the chips are down we pull together as a global family. Million letters were sent by us to Russia recently, protesting about the persecution of our brothers there. It was instigated by the Russian Orthodox Church in their attempt to stamp out any other religion. The Russian constitution upholds freedom of worship, but this has not been honored.

We don't go to war and kill our enemies when Jesus tells us to love them. We don't run for political office when Jesus tells us to be no part of this world, no part of its immorality or its greed. We are the most sought after employees because of our honesty in a world where lying and theft is almost an expectation. I am very proud to belong to this brotherhood, and in spite of our individual imperfections, there is no other organization on earth as united as we are in our global preaching work.

You are right.....there are a lot of sincere people out there, doing what "they" think is right....the problem is that they haven't checked to see if what they are doing is all right with God. They haven't checked their Bibles to see what the will of God actually is, in order to do it. (Matthew 7:21-23)

These are my sincere beliefs and no matter what anyone says.....God will not go away because people do not want to believe in him. Calling yourself a Christian but not following the teachings of Christ is hypocritical......that applies no matter what label you wear.

God said to his ancient people collectively......
"For I know the plans that I have in mind for you,” declares Adonai, “plans for shalom and not calamity—to give you a future and a hope.
Then you will call on Me, and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek Me and find Me, when you will search for Me with all your heart. 14 Then I will be found by you,” says Adonai..." (TLV)

They had to 'search for him with all their heart'....only then would he allow them to find him.

 

[Deeje]

@Deeje, could you explain when and where this "error" was "clarified"?

KJV "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

NKJV "But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

They clarified it themselves. No suffering involved.

An archaic meaning of 'suffer' is permit or allow - as any dictionary will tell you. the word is also used in the same way in Exodus 22:18; does that need "clarification" also?

KJV "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

NKJV "You shall not permit a sorceress to live."

They clarified it again. Plain modern English, so no misunderstanding.

We don't speak archaic English anymore...in case you hadn't noticed.

Then why did God tamper with Pharaoh's heart at all? As the Bible clearly says he did.

He clearly did not. He simply allowed an already hardened heart to remain so. God did not soften Pharaoh's heart.
Pharaoh was a god in his own eyes....he did not have to yield to the demands of any other god. His actions after the death of his heir, proved that his heart was proud and haughty....it ended in his own death and that of his entire army.

I'm afraid it seems to me that your interpretations are quite convenient!

I find them quite accurate actually. You are free to interpret them any way you wish.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

As you wish. No point in....um.....

But since you brought this up....

I'll answer....

I think you like to get the last word in Deeje!

BTW, the mafia didn't create you....they will make you pay if you don't do as they tell you.....

But might doesn't make right. God has a purpose in his creation, so if we do not want to fit in with that purpose, then we have no place in the future God has planned for this planet.

God gives life and he can take it away....he has the right, so who are we to argue? What does he ask of us that is so impossible anyway? (Micah 6:8)

I don't believe I was made by a deity though, and I'd remind your that bible verses do not carry any weight with me. No more than any other holy book.

As for "he has the right, so who are we to argue?", well if the deity exists it can crush me like a bug anytime can't it? It isn't a case of arguing, just get on with it Yahweh I say.

Funny, but I see no joy in life without God......what are we living for?

I would have agreed at one point in my life, but trust me you'd continue to have joy in your life without a belief in a deity. You say there is nothing that can change your mind (certainty is an overrated "virtue" I'd say), and I think that is probably true, you are deeply into your religion and happy in your chosen life (at least I hope so for your sake). Religion is "unfalsifiable" because you can claim anything, you can make the bible say anything, so if you are certain you have the "objective" truth about it, there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind. That will need you to come from within you, first and foremost, not from other people. To question yourself, to question others is a good thing.

As for "what are we living for?", generally speaking we live for our loved ones don't we? Nobody "lives for god" that is religious speak. Take god out of my life and I still have plenty of joy, take away my loved ones suddenly life just becomes an existence.

That sounds a little desperate to me.....

what on earth did your church teach you?

I need to correct you, I was just putting on my Christian hat there, "my" church taught that Jesus died for our sins because god's standards are impossible to meet for any person. Ever feel you could be doing more for god? Praying more, reading the bible more, sacrificing more, helping others more? Of course you do. Jesus died so you do not need to worry about "set qualifications for citizenship in God's Kingdom", you are forgiven the moment you accept Jesus, the moment you are born again. That is the gospel sister! Sermon over!
The JWs appear to emphasise good works as a means to salvation, "conditional" salvation. A hard, guilt ridden path at times I'd say, but if you are happy and can laugh about life, about yourself then fair enough gal.

In my experience, the fruits are all there, (there are no perfect people, so sometimes we get it wrong) but when the chips are down we pull together as a global family. Million letters were sent by us to Russia recently, protesting about the persecution of our brothers there. It was instigated by the Russian Orthodox Church in their attempt to stamp out any other religion. The Russian constitution upholds freedom of worship, but this has not been honored.

We don't go to war and kill our enemies when Jesus tells us to love them. We don't run for political office when Jesus tells us to be no part of this world, no part of its immorality or its greed. We are the most sought after employees because of our honesty in a world where lying and theft is almost an expectation. I am very proud to belong to this brotherhood, and in spite of our individual imperfections, there is no other organization on earth as united as we are in our global preaching work.

Yeah, you belong to what is essentially a marketing company. I didn't read anything about social justice there, about "being Jesus" for the people in the world who are hungry or oppressed, or are suffering in other ways...unless they happen to be JWs right?
The Watchtower is a successful business, it churns out excellent hard working salespeople like yourself, it has to be given credit for being good at what it does. Beyond that though, I have no regard for the organisation, the silly stuff about blood transfusions and the shunning of people who don't toe the party line are pretty unappealing in my book.

You are right.....there are a lot of sincere people out there, doing what "they" think is right....the problem is that they haven't checked to see if what they are doing is all right with God. They haven't checked their Bibles to see what the will of God actually is, in order to do it. (Matthew 7:21-23)

You do make me chuckle, all those sincere people have checked their bibles and missed the truth, not like you right? Aren't you the lucky one?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The fountain of youth has been sought by many since time immemorial.

Yes, because people prefer the beauty, energy and vitality that we feel when we're young, but fades with age.

Humans instinctively know that aging is unnatural for them

. Ask any old person who still has their mental faculties, how old they feel in their head. Age is a state of body....the mind reaches maturity and stays there, growing in wisdom and knowledge....or at least that was the original plan. Science can tell us how we age, but not why. The process of cell renewal in the human body should theoretically go on indefinitely as it was designed to do. But the death penalty imposed on the first humans, genetically altered that arrangement. Aging, sickness and death have been our lot ever since......but not for much longer, according to the Bible. These things God has promised to eliminate and return us to our original state....restoring all that we lost in Eden.

Nah. Humans just don't like to face the thought that they will cease to exist one day and that there is no escaping it. It's a scary thought. It's also a scary thought to realize that we are going to lose a great many people we love along the way, and it helps us to think they're living on in some great place somewhere. I'm an atheist, and I can't deny that I wish my father was still around somewhere, maybe watching over me or something.

The assertion that science "can't tell us why we age so Adam and Eve must have existed and caused sin to enter the world" is something that needs to be demonstrated. It's nothing more than a god of the gaps argument.

I can see the wisdom in maturing slowly, gaining experience and knowledge, especially before becoming a parent. I have often said that I would love to be young again, but only if I could retain all that accumulated knowledge of my lifetime. How often I lament the loss of my once active body, frustrated at what my mind wants to do, but my body is no longer capable of fulfilling.

If humans lived for hundreds of years in ancient times, then aging was a very slow process closer to the events in Eden. Successive generations saw a marked decline in their lifespan down to the present "three score and ten" (70 years) mentioned in the Bible. Today, we might be living longer, but certainly not better.

That's a huge IF. There is nothing in our known history that indicates that humans used to live to be 500+ years old at some point in the past.

Death is not natural for us, as we are designed to go on living. We all collectively feel that, so we fight to live. And when death overtakes those we love, grieving can last for decades.
'Becoming fruitful and filling the earth' was not something that needed to be done quickly......after all, they had forever to fulfill the mandate.

Death is natural for us. Every human being will die. Most everything that lives on planet Earth will die. There is no escaping it. The circle of life requires it.

 

[Deeje]

I think you like to get the last word in Deeje!

Whatever gave you that idea?

I don't believe I was made by a deity though, and I'd remind your that bible verses do not carry any weight with me. No more than any other holy book.

As for "he has the right, so who are we to argue?", well if the deity exists it can crush me like a bug anytime can't it? It isn't a case of arguing, just get on with it Yahweh I say.

Be careful what you wish for....it may be closer than you think. Jesus said it will come "like a thief in the night".....with no warning apart from what has already been given.

To question yourself, to question others is a good thing.

I have questioned everything all my life. That is why I am confident of my answers. I take nothing at face value and my life experiences speak louder than any book.

As for "what are we living for?", generally speaking we live for our loved ones don't we? Nobody "lives for god" that is religious speak. Take god out of my life and I still have plenty of joy, take away my loved ones suddenly life just becomes an existence.

Exactly. Death robs us of our joy because we can't keep anyone we love, alive. To lose loved ones in death is devastating, so without the hope that the Bible holds out for them, what do we have? Nothing to hope for and a dread of the inevitable happening too soon.

What belief system teaches that death is the end of life? Only atheism as far as I know. It has no hope of anything better than what man can provide....does his track record inspire you? Are you glad to be at the mercy of man's inhumanity? Even in countries where there is relative peace......threats from many sources invade their lives and rob them of security.

Jesus died so you do not need to worry about "set qualifications for citizenship in God's Kingdom", you are forgiven the moment you accept Jesus, the moment you are born again. That is the gospel sister! Sermon over!

Funny, but that is not "the gospel" as I now understand it.....that is Christendom's version, in the mistaken notion that everyone ends up in either heaven or hell......that is a total distortion of what the Bible teaches. Humans were designed to live on earth. Angels were designed to live in heaven.

Something is required of us, and if those conditions are not met, access will be denied, just like it is in any application for citizenship in any country. (Matthew 24:13) Those who simply acknowledge Jesus as Lord but who do not meet the conditions will be very disappointed. (Matthew 7:21-23)

The JWs appear to emphasise good works as a means to salvation, "conditional" salvation.

That would be because the Bible says you can't have one without the other. "Faith without works is dead"...remember?

A hard, guilt ridden path at times I'd say, but if you are happy and can laugh about life, about yourself then fair enough gal.

It isn't hard. Why do you say that?

You never did answer me....what does God demand that is so unreasonable?
Why is there guilt? Where did this faculty come from? What is the point of it? Isn't it designed to act as a moral compass?
It isn't designed to just slap us, but to motivate us to right a wrong. Why is that an undesirable thing?

The Watchtower is a successful business, it churns out excellent hard working salespeople like yourself, it has to be given credit for being good at what it does. Beyond that though, I have no regard for the organisation, the silly stuff about blood transfusions and the shunning of people who don't toe the party line are pretty unappealing in my book.

You do realize that marketers base their techniques on the way Jesus preached, because he was so successful despite the fact that his message was so unpopular? It is such a successful technique that it is utilized in the commercial word.
The blood transfusion stuff is also reasonable as the medical system is finding out in recent decades.....and shunning is merely like putting a naughty child in "time out". You can disagree as much as you wish. It is Biblical, and like the prodigal son...it works.

You do make me chuckle, all those sincere people have checked their bibles and missed the truth, not like you right? Aren't you the lucky one?

Everything in this life is a test. Whether we pass it or not is up to us. It has nothing to do with luck.

 

[gnostic]

The Watchtower is a successful business, it churns out excellent hard working salespeople like yourself, it has to be given credit for being good at what it does. Beyond that though, I have no regard for the organisation, the silly stuff about blood transfusions and the shunning of people who don't toe the party line are pretty unappealing in my book.

JW reminds me of dictatorship by committee, like communist party of China and former military regimes of formerly known Burma.