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Just Accidental?

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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ah, Deeje, I thought our exchange was at an end, you really do like the last word huh?

And so do you apparently.
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It is your casual acceptance of the way the deity supposedly has complete ownership of our lives; if parents said to a child "we made you, therefore we have every right to kill you if you displease us" you would call them psychotic monsters. A deity says it and you worship it.

If I thought for one moment that the God of the Bible was anything like you describe, then I wouldn't want to worship him either....I see reasons for why God has done things the way he has, that go way deeper than what appears on the surface. If you are prepared to judge on the surface appearance of things, then that is your loss, I believe. God's wisdom surpasses anything humans might think is the right way to go. He can see the future and adjust his actions accordingly. He will not overstep anyone's free will, but allows people like you to bad mouth him without penalty for now.....
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God handed rulership over to the devil because, 1) satan wanted to be the god and ruler of mankind.
2) humans chose him to be their god and ruler and 3) there was no better way to demonstrate the folly of rejecting God's laws than to allow humans and angels to express their free will and show the whole of God's family, both in heaven and on earth, the consequences of such actions. And here we are....what have we achieved that was better than what God first offered to humankind?
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Never mind hell, and I'm certainly not convinced by your "unbiblical" claim about it btw, annihilation is killing people still yes? Am I supposed to rejoice that there wont be any eternal torture on the menu? Oh, god is just brimming with love!

Yes he is. He could have just dispatched the rebels and started again......but then, what if another satan (which means resister) or devil (slanderer) was to step out of the ranks and challenge God's sovereignty all over again? Who lied in Eden? Were humans better off with a knowledge of evil? As free willed beings, the merry-go-round could have gone on forever without the issues ever being settled. So here we are, at the end of the allotted period and according to Bible prophesy, a "great tribulation" is about to be unleashed on an unsuspecting world. (Matthew 24:21) The survivors of that tribulation will form the nucleus of the new earth.....compared to the population of this earth, they will be "few". (Matthew 7:13-14) We are almost at the brink of the new world...our very own Promised Land.

Then why not cut to the chase rather than go through millennia with satan in charge? If that's how its going to pan out I'll wait until the 1000 years reign begins , when I can see more evidence for the existence of god. I cant lose!:D

The final test for the living will be at Armageddon. Unless you have a favorable standing with God at that time, you will be deemed a "goat" and will end up where the devil is eventually going. Sorry if this is not to your liking.
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Satan and humans are proving something to themselves and to God. Those who will be saved are the ones who will not yield to the pressures imposed by the devil's world to step outside the moral boundaries set by the Creator, or to cave when the going gets tough. We are all proving our worthiness or unworthiness to live in a world where God will be in charge. If we don't want to live there...we don't have to. But keep in mind that there will be no other place to keep living. Life or death...those are the only choices we have. We don't get to make the rules when we are only the tenants of this earth......
God is the Landlord and eviction notices are being drawn up as we speak.
Either we keep his rules or we will be evicted.
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Its not that hard to understand, is it?

I have to go, but I'll come back to demolish the rest of your points later!

I am not sure you have demolished anything to date, except in your own mind....but hey, exercising your free will is your prerogative....for now. You're in the driver's seat.
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The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
If I remember correctly, the Canaanites were the offspring of Noah's grandson Canaan, who was cursed for some kind of lewd conduct in connection with his grandfather. His descendants displayed his disgusting personality traits and as one archaeologist commented, 'if the kinds of artifacts unearthed in the land of Canaan are an indication of its depravity, its a wonder God did not evict them sooner'.
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That land was promised to Abraham's descendants, not Canaan's..
There it is again, the casual acceptance of divine barbarity, this time genocide. Picture the scene, the Canaanite children screaming with fear as dad and mum get bludgeoned or stabbed to death, perhaps mum gets raped beforehand, she was going to die anyway right? (I do hope you are not so naïve to believe the "godly soldiers" didn't take advantage of the situation). When all the people are dead, including the children, and the Israelite soldiers retire drenched in blood, the deity looks on and is pleased with his day's work. Maybe the soldiers had a prayer meeting afterwards to praise the deity? He does deserve it, nay demands it after all.
The bible is a mixture of history and myth for me Deeje, I don't know whether that genocide occurred in reality, I do know that is a horrific and barbaric account though. Religion, as only religion can do, has made you blind to that apparently; it was a "righteous" godly genocide yes?
Oh please.
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....how many times must I say it? We are not an offshoot of any denomination in Christendom. We share none of their beliefs because none of them are biblical.

For the record.....we did change the record.
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..
Every single founding member of your organisation came from "Christendom", you did yourself. Stop living in denial and pay homage to mother church!


I know that the orthodox medical system has no interest in good health, even though it pretends to. It is interested in maintaining the ill health of the population so as to milk them for all they are worth. You are free to fall for the propaganda, but many of us have seen through their disgusting agenda. Cures for cancer have been around for decades, yet the medical system continues to use outdated methods that do not work and cause people to suffer horribly until they take their last breath....but all the while making them pay for the misery and the false hope. You talk about quackery? I know who the real quacks are.



Don't look now, but they are. Cancer, heart disease, diabetes, stroke and neurological disorders are taking hundreds of thousands of lives every year. Much of it caused or exacerbated by our poor diet. Where are the cures? All they have are "treatments" designed to try and fix symptoms, but they never seem to get to the cause of the problems. Side effects make the treatments even worse, but guess what?.....
They have more drugs to treat those side effects!
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Where are you getting all this conspiracy theory claptrap from? Alternative medicine is a particular pet hate of mine; snake oil merchants and confidence tricksters emptying the pockets of the gullible who believe their pseudo science. Often they are desperate and those jackals are only too happy to give them false hope. Your remarks are disrespectful to the medical professionals who work long and hard to keep people healthy, to keep people alive. I've a great deal of respect for the men and women in the NHS in the UK, I'm sure Australia has plenty of good men and women as well, you need to step back from the conspiracy theory websites Deeje!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The bible is a mixture of history and myth for me Deeje, I don't know whether that genocide occurred in reality, I do know that is a horrific and barbaric account though. Religion, as only religion can do, has made you blind to that apparently; it was a "righteous" godly genocide yes?
Your imagination obviously runs away with you.
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I have no such images because my God is not a Barbarian. I do imagine that he is relieved when those who hate him are removed from existence though. He has that option as Creator, especially when humans behave in inhuman ways or are disrespectful to him. Aren't we also relieved when a radicalized suicide bomber is apprehended or a pervert is taken off the streets away from our vulnerable children?

As far as God taking the lives of children along with their parents.....he did so in the flood and at other times for the simple reason that children are placed in the care and under the authority of their parents until they are of age to decide for themselves how they will behave. Since parents have a great influence on the way their children think and act, a wise old lady once described it to me this way.....
'If you came upon a nest of Funnel Web Spiders (one of Australia's deadliest arachnids) in your home, would you just take out the parents and spare the babies? What could they only grow up to become?'

Every single founding member of your organisation came from "Christendom", you did yourself. Stop living in denial and pay homage to mother church!

We do pay homage to the mother church....but it is the one Christ began, not Constantine.
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When blood began to flow, and torture was used in forced confessions, Christ left the building....he never went back.

The Reformation broke the power of the Roman Church, but it also broke Christianity up into thousands of bickering sects. Christ was never in any of them since they did not follow his teachings. Calling yourself a Christian and then not acting like one is hypocrisy......he showed the Pharisees how much he hates hypocrites. (Matthew 23:13-33; Matthew 7:21-23)

Where are you getting all this conspiracy theory claptrap from? Alternative medicine is a particular pet hate of mine; snake oil merchants and confidence tricksters emptying the pockets of the gullible who believe their pseudo science.

The thing about conspiracy theories is that some of them are actually true. They hide them in among the dodgy ones in the hope that you won't notice which ones are real.
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The real snake oil salesmen are the ones peddling the poison that masquerades as medicine, and bans cannabis as a nasty gateway drug that must be avoided at all costs....why? Because it is a God-given medicine that would actually put the drug companies out of business, replacing their ineffective and expensive drugs with something that can actually make people well and ease their suffering. Do some research. There is only one reason why cannabis is still illegal in many countries. There is not a single recorded death from a cannabis overdose...ever. The same can't be said for prescription drugs. Don't underestimate how powerful big pharma is.

Your remarks are disrespectful to the medical professionals who work long and hard to keep people healthy, to keep people alive. I've a great deal of respect for the men and women in the NHS in the UK, I'm sure Australia has plenty of good men and women as well, you need to step back from the conspiracy theory websites Deeje!

You know, the thing that makes me madder than anything is that the doctors are kept in the dark about what natural medicine and good nutrition can accomplish. The plain truth is "we are what we eat". One of the best treatments for illness is prevention. Diet plays an important role in our overall health, yet doctors seem to only deal in what pills they can prescribe for you. They are educated by institutions that are funded by pharmaceutical companies and are not permitted to prescribe treatments or medicine that is not "approved" by the people who licence them. There are so many doctors coming out now and exposing the money-making fraud that orthodox medicine has become. Who do you suppose gets all that money that people donate to cancer research? The very wealthy ones who have kept a lid on medicinal cannabis for decades because they know it cures and treats so many ailments. Doctors are tied to that system and if they fail to support it, they will lose their licence. I don't think you have any idea how corrupt this world is.....
.....I believe that you will soon enough.
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The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Your imagination obviously runs away with you.
I have no such images because my God is not a Barbarian.
No? The slaughter of women and children not barbaric? What does qualify as barbaric in your world then? I'd say killing children is barbaric, I think you would as well if you weren't attempting mental gymnastics to make your baby killing god seem like a nice chap really.
I do imagine that he is relieved when those who hate him are removed from existence though. He has that option as Creator, especially when humans behave in inhuman ways or are disrespectful to him. Aren't we also relieved when a radicalized suicide bomber is apprehended or a pervert is taken off the streets away from our vulnerable children?
Yes, those children probably disrespected him as well right? That showed them, watching their parents get murdered in front of them before being killed themselves. Nobody messes with god! Ooh, he's so damn mean!
As far as God taking the lives of children along with their parents.....he did so in the flood and at other times for the simple reason that children are placed in the care and under the authority of their parents until they are of age to decide for themselves how they will behave. Since parents have a great influence on the way their children think and act, a wise old lady once described it to me this way.....
'If you came upon a nest of Funnel Web Spiders (one of Australia's deadliest arachnids) in your home, would you just take out the parents and spare the babies? What could they only grow up to become?'
Is that the best you could come up with? Comparing human infants with venomous spiders? Maybe if I spoke with other JWs I might get a different answer, but if that utter rubbish is a commonplace belief within the Watchtower faithful, I am appalled. The old lady who told you that wasn't "wise" by the way, insane old boot more like.
At least the tired old "god works in mysterious ways" would have been better than your venomous spider analogy, you are beginning to worry me again.


We do pay homage to the mother church....but it is the one Christ began, not Constantine.
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When blood began to flow, and torture was used in forced confessions, Christ left the building....he never went back.
Hold on, the blood of Canaanite babies flowed, that was sanctioned even commanded by god. Don't go getting all "blood shy" on me now, as though blood and gore are suddenly ungodly. You see, those enemies of the church, they were like a nest of poison spiders, they had to be exterminated, and so what if a little torture was used? That is god's prerogative, that's what you are missing there.
Calling yourself a Christian and then not acting like one is hypocrisy......he showed the Pharisees how much he hates hypocrites..
Sure...https://www.theguardian.com/austral...not-protect-children-from-abuse-inquiry-finds Don't know what the fuss is about, it's not like the children were being killed like spiders or anything, right?


The real snake oil salesmen are the ones peddling the poison that masquerades as medicine, and bans cannabis as a nasty gateway drug that must be avoided at all costs....why? Because it is a God-given medicine that would actually put the drug companies out of business, replacing their ineffective and expensive drugs with something that can actually make people well and ease their suffering. Do some research. There is only one reason why cannabis is still illegal in many countries. There is not a single recorded death from a cannabis overdose...ever. The same can't be said for prescription drugs. Don't underestimate how powerful big pharma is.
Well the last thing I was expecting you to say was legalise cannabis! Is that your beef then? Do you live with pain and would like to use medicinal cannabis legally? If so, fine, I think I agree that medicinal cannabis has a place, but don't turn that into some crazy conspiracy theory about pharmaceutical companies pulling all the strings to make more money. You know what the most vocal opposition to the legalisation of this mood altering drug would be? Of course, our old friend religion, do not pollute your body with mind altering drugs sister Deeje! You should be high on god!


You know, the thing that makes me madder than anything is that the doctors are kept in the dark about what natural medicine and good nutrition can accomplish. The plain truth is "we are what we eat". One of the best treatments for illness is prevention. Diet plays an important role in our overall health, yet doctors seem to only deal in what pills they can prescribe for you. They are educated by institutions that are funded by pharmaceutical companies and are not permitted to prescribe treatments or medicine that is not "approved" by the people who licence them. There are so many doctors coming out now and exposing the money-making fraud that orthodox medicine has become. Who do you suppose gets all that money that people donate to cancer research? The very wealthy ones who have kept a lid on medicinal cannabis for decades because they know it cures and treats so many ailments. Doctors are tied to that system and if they fail to support it, they will lose their licence. I don't think you have any idea how corrupt this world is.....
.....I believe that you will soon enough.
Utter pants! Don't you dare presume that qualified professional medics do not understand the value of a healthy diet and (you omitted) regular exercise. They do, and they advise patients to eat healthy, cut back on smoking and drinking, etc. all the time, or at least that is my experience. They cannot force people to eat healthy and exercise, too many hear the advice before waddling off to the nearest burger bar, or lighting up. You can bring a horse to water...
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Your imagination obviously runs away with you.
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I have no such images because my God is not a Barbarian. I do imagine that he is relieved when those who hate him are removed from existence though. He has that option as Creator, especially when humans behave in inhuman ways or are disrespectful to him. Aren't we also relieved when a radicalized suicide bomber is apprehended or a pervert is taken off the streets away from our vulnerable children?

As far as God taking the lives of children along with their parents.....he did so in the flood and at other times for the simple reason that children are placed in the care and under the authority of their parents until they are of age to decide for themselves how they will behave. Since parents have a great influence on the way their children think and act, a wise old lady once described it to me this way.....
'If you came upon a nest of Funnel Web Spiders (one of Australia's deadliest arachnids) in your home, would you just take out the parents and spare the babies? What could they only grow up to become?'
Quite honestly, this is one of the most disgusting ways I've ever heard someone describe human beings and children. Children are not responsible for the sins of their parents and don't deserve to face death for something their parents may have done. There is nothing moral or wise about such a view.

We do pay homage to the mother church....but it is the one Christ began, not Constantine.
pop.gif

When blood began to flow, and torture was used in forced confessions, Christ left the building....he never went back.

The Reformation broke the power of the Roman Church, but it also broke Christianity up into thousands of bickering sects. Christ was never in any of them since they did not follow his teachings. Calling yourself a Christian and then not acting like one is hypocrisy......he showed the Pharisees how much he hates hypocrites. (Matthew 23:13-33; Matthew 7:21-23)



The thing about conspiracy theories is that some of them are actually true. They hide them in among the dodgy ones in the hope that you won't notice which ones are real.
1657.gif


The real snake oil salesmen are the ones peddling the poison that masquerades as medicine, and bans cannabis as a nasty gateway drug that must be avoided at all costs....why? Because it is a God-given medicine that would actually put the drug companies out of business, replacing their ineffective and expensive drugs with something that can actually make people well and ease their suffering. Do some research. There is only one reason why cannabis is still illegal in many countries. There is not a single recorded death from a cannabis overdose...ever. The same can't be said for prescription drugs. Don't underestimate how powerful big pharma is.
I don't know what makes cannabis any more "God-given" than any other drug in existence. We have cannabinoid receptors in our bodies, and we also have opioid receptors so does that mean opiates are God-given medicine as well?

Like I pointed out to you before, cannabis has been shown to be effective in the treatment of some ailments, and the reason we know this is because people like the scientists and doctors you're accusing of being greedy liars, worked hard to produce evidence demonstrating its positive value in the treatment of some illnesses. But much like the other drugs you deride, cannabis doesn't "cure" anything and its application is limited, as is true for any drug. And its use does not actually put drug companies out of business, as there are several thriving at this very moment in Canada, the US and elsewhere.


You know, the thing that makes me madder than anything is that the doctors are kept in the dark about what natural medicine and good nutrition can accomplish. The plain truth is "we are what we eat". One of the best treatments for illness is prevention. Diet plays an important role in our overall health, yet doctors seem to only deal in what pills they can prescribe for you. They are educated by institutions that are funded by pharmaceutical companies and are not permitted to prescribe treatments or medicine that is not "approved" by the people who licence them. There are so many doctors coming out now and exposing the money-making fraud that orthodox medicine has become. Who do you suppose gets all that money that people donate to cancer research? The very wealthy ones who have kept a lid on medicinal cannabis for decades because they know it cures and treats so many ailments. Doctors are tied to that system and if they fail to support it, they will lose their licence. I don't think you have any idea how corrupt this world is.....
.....I believe that you will soon enough.
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You're asserting that doctors are kept in the dark on health matters? What are you basing that on? Why do you think doctors should be able to prescribe medications that haven't been properly vetted? Don't you find that dangerous and irresponsible?


Maybe you need to branch out a bit and read up on some other parts of the world. I currently hold a prescription for medical marijuana, to treat my migraines and anxiety. I live in Canada.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Quite honestly, this is one of the most disgusting ways I've ever heard someone describe human beings and children. Children are not responsible for the sins of their parents and don't deserve to face death for something their parents may have done. There is nothing moral or wise about such a view.

In the Bible, God did not spare the children of parents who were wicked or rebellious. Those are traits that are passed on. If you recall the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were razed to the ground with not a soul preserved, except Lot and his family. Why? Because the children in those cities were so corrupted by their parents, that God did not deem a single one as worth saving. Children are counted as being the same as their parents until they reach an age where they can judge things and act for themselves. No child is responsible for the conduct of their parents, but parents are responsible for teaching their children to be honest, morally upright human beings. Children are not born wicked....they generally learn it from others, especially their parents and peers.

I don't know what makes cannabis any more "God-given" than any other drug in existence. We have cannabinoid receptors in our bodies, and we also have opioid receptors so does that mean opiates are God-given medicine as well?

Up until the early 1900's both cannabis and cocaine were freely used in medicine. Coca Cola originally contained small amounts of cocaine....hence the name. Medicinal qualities in these plants were put there for a reason. Overdosing on anything...even water...can be fatal. Common sense is the key.
Caffeine too is a drug of addiction.....so who is trying to ban coffee?
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Tobacco and alcohol are both highly addictive and cause untold damage to human health, costing governments millions of dollars every year...anyone trying to ban those? Ever wondered why? Cannabis is not addictive and has no side detrimental effects.

Like I pointed out to you before, cannabis has been shown to be effective in the treatment of some ailments, and the reason we know this is because people like the scientists and doctors you're accusing of being greedy liars, worked hard to produce evidence demonstrating its positive value in the treatment of some illnesses. But much like the other drugs you deride, cannabis doesn't "cure" anything and its application is limited, as is true for any drug. And its use does not actually put drug companies out of business, as there are several thriving at this very moment in Canada, the US and elsewhere.

Statistically, prescription medicine is costing more lives than it is saving. Side effects are the bodies way of telling us that what we have ingested is not compatible with our system. Putting more poison into an already protesting body is asking for trouble. All people have to do to get well and stay well is eat the right food and exercise regularly. Unfortunately, in this modern world, no truly nutritious food exists in the commercial system of production.
Various strains of Cannabis have been shown to "cure" many cancers, but like all medicines, a person's own metabolism determines the outcome. It isn't a cure all, but it needs to be available to all without the need for constraint, just as alcohol and tobacco are legally available to any who know the risks.
The safest and most effective drug in existence is kept out of reach for the majority.
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You're asserting that doctors are kept in the dark on health matters? What are you basing that on? Why do you think doctors should be able to prescribe medications that haven't been properly vetted? Don't you find that dangerous and irresponsible?

Doctors are trained by a system that manufactures the drugs they push. They are licenced by that system and educated by them. Any research done on those drugs is done by the drug companies themselves and the side effects are played off against any benefit that might only reduce symptoms. Drugs are designed to give short term symptomatic relief, not to cure anything by actually getting to the cause of the problem and treating that. Diet is often at the base of all of it. The thing I find dangerous and irresponsible is putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

Maybe you need to branch out a bit and read up on some other parts of the world. I currently hold a prescription for medical marijuana, to treat my migraines and anxiety. I live in Canada.

In Australia, where I live, medicinal cannabis is supposed to be legal in my state. But those who are campaigning for it to be made available here, are furious at the system for all the bureaucratic red tape that is preventing access to it. Doctors are not on board because they are told that its just a fad. They are not investigating the evidence for themselves because the system that issues their right to practice medicine has not "approved" it. We all know why.

The stalling is to allow the drug companies time to synthesize and patent a component of cannabis that they can then market and sell as the real deal, but a synthetic look-alike is never going to work the way the natural plant does. Patenting medicine is the way they make their money. Just recently there was an online petition for a woman to access an anti-cancer drug that her family thought might prolong this young woman's life. The cost? $3,000 per injection! Wealthy drug companies could afford to reduce the price to save many lives if this drug really works......where is the humanity? Why does money come before life and suffering?

I don't think most people have a clue as to how corrupt this system really is. But for Christians, I believe it's a no-brainer. (1 John 5:19)
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
In the Bible, God did not spare the children of parents who were wicked or rebellious. Those are traits that are passed on.

There are no “wicked” or “rebellious” genes, if that’s what you mean.

Such traits may or may not be present in a person’s offspring, but it certainly isn’t guaranteed – we are all responsible for our OWN actions, not the actions of others – that’s the point. Babies and young children are innocent creatures that certainly don’t deserve death sentences for something someone else has done. You’d think an all-knowing, all-seeing god would be aware of that. I have no use for such an immoral and unjust god.

If you recall the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were razed to the ground with not a soul preserved, except Lot and his family. Why? Because the children in those cities were so corrupted by their parents, that God did not deem a single one as worth saving.

Like I said, this is disgusting. I find your god to be utterly immoral for commanding the killing of babies and children.

Children are counted as being the same as their parents until they reach an age where they can judge things and act for themselves. No child is responsible for the conduct of their parents, but parents are responsible for teaching their children to be honest, morally upright human beings. Children are not born wicked....they generally learn it from others, especially their parents and peers.

So basically your god punishes children for the errors made by their parents. That’s what this says to me. And that’s what the Bible says. And you condone it. And people wonder why I think that religious beliefs can cloud a person’s rational thinking and common sense.

Up until the early 1900's both cannabis and cocaine were freely used in medicine. Coca Cola originally contained small amounts of cocaine....hence the name. Medicinal qualities in these plants were put there for a reason. Overdosing on anything...even water...can be fatal. Common sense is the key.

Yes, I know. So then, what’s wrong with prescription meds like opiates?

Caffeine too is a drug of addiction.....so who is trying to ban coffee?
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Nobody is trying to ban coffee because though regular use can produce mild physical dependence, at best. It doesn’t cause severe withdrawal symptoms (if there are any at all), as other drugs do, and people addicted to caffeine aren’t prone to the harmful types of drug-seeking behavior that people addicted to “hard” drugs tend to carry out. That’s probably why.

In reality, anybody can become addicted to anything. People can become addicted to drugs, shopping, gambling, exercising,

Regular use can cause mild physical dependence but it doesn’t threaten a person’s health, and we It’s also a mild painkiller than enhances the effectiveness of other pain killers. Cool, eh?

Tobacco and alcohol are both highly addictive and cause untold damage to human health, costing governments millions of dollars every year...anyone trying to ban those? Ever wondered why? Cannabis is not addictive and has no side detrimental effects.

I totally agree with you that marijuana should not be considered a Schedule 1 drug, because it makes absolutely no sense to lump it in with narcotics. I’m not sure what your situation is in Australia (?), but here in Canada, we are looking toward fully legalizing marijuana sometime early next year. As it stands now, medical marijuana has been legal for a number of years. Maybe you should consider moving here. Or to the US. Several American states have medical marijuana available, and in other states it’s fully legalized for recreational use.

I also agree that cannabis is much safer than tobacco and alcohol, though many don’t see it that way. Various peoples and groups have tried (and continue to try) to ban alcohol and tobacco at various times over the last century. Anybody who knows anything about Prohibition in the US knows how well that turned out. I do find drug categorization in the US to be somewhat bizarre and arbitrary.

Statistically, prescription medicine is costing more lives than it is saving.
Improperly used prescription medication is what is costing lives.

I think you need to be more specific here then. Which specific prescription meds are you talking about?

Side effects are the bodies way of telling us that what we have ingested is not compatible with our system. Putting more poison into an already protesting body is asking for trouble.

Side effects aren’t our body’s way of telling us that we’ve ingested something incompatible. Rather, side effects are the results of the drug’s interaction with the various parts of our bodies that they come into contact with. It’s extremely difficult to design a drug that interacts only with the one specific part of the body that it’s targeting – our bodies just don’t work that way.

All people have to do to get well and stay well is eat the right food and exercise regularly. Unfortunately, in this modern world, no truly nutritious food exists in the commercial system of production.

It’s not as simplistic as that though. Such a view ignores the many other factors involved including genetics and environment. A person can stay well, eat right and exercise and still end up with an illness or condition that must be dealt with. At that point, they may need medical intervention and prescription medication.

Various strains of Cannabis have been shown to "cure" many cancers, but like all medicines, a person's own metabolism determines the outcome. It isn't a cure all, but it needs to be available to all without the need for constraint, just as alcohol and tobacco are legally available to any who know the risks.

At this point in time, various strains of cannabis have not shown to cure many cancers. They’re working on it though, and studies continue. On the positive side, I have seen many more studies cropping up than there used to be.

The safest and most effective drug in existence is kept out of reach for the majority.
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That is not the case here. Wherever you are, you need to do what you need to do to push for the legalization of medical marijuana. Or move somewhere that already has it. Canada would be happy to have you. :)


Doctors are trained by a system that manufactures the drugs they push. They are licenced by that system and educated by them. Any research done on those drugs is done by the drug companies themselves and the side effects are played off against any benefit that might only reduce symptoms. Drugs are designed to give short term symptomatic relief, not to cure anything by actually getting to the cause of the problem and treating that. Diet is often at the base of all of it. The thing I find dangerous and irresponsible is putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

Doctors are trained by universities with the most current information available at the time. Plenty of universities carry out drug testing and trials.

Cannabis also provides symptomatic relief and doesn’t actually cure anything.

In Australia, where I live, medicinal cannabis is supposed to be legal in my state. But those who are campaigning for it to be made available here, are furious at the system for all the bureaucratic red tape that is preventing access to it. Doctors are not on board because they are told that its just a fad. They are not investigating the evidence for themselves because the system that issues their right to practice medicine has not "approved" it. We all know why.

That’s an Australia problem then, not necessarily a global problem.

I think some doctors are probably afraid to “approve it” because of it’s stigma as a recreational drug. Also, there’s a certain attitude among some in the general public that people wishing to seek marijuana for medical use are just a bunch of stoners looking to get high. Those things need to change.

The stalling is to allow the drug companies time to synthesize and patent a component of cannabis that they can then market and sell as the real deal, but a synthetic look-alike is never going to work the way the natural plant does.

I’m not sure you’re qualified to make such an assessment, but no matter.

People in Canada are able to purchase marijuana in its natural form. We’re also able to grow and sell it, with the proper permits.

Patenting medicine is the way they make their money. Just recently there was an online petition for a woman to access an anti-cancer drug that her family thought might prolong this young woman's life. The cost? $3,000 per injection! Wealthy drug companies could afford to reduce the price to save many lives if this drug really works......where is the humanity? Why does money come before life and suffering?

The costs associated with research and development of new drugs are extremely high, especially given that only a very small amount of the drugs that are tested actually end up on the market. Patents are good for about 10-20 years (depending on what country we’re talking about), after which time generic versions of the drugs are allowed to enter the marketplace, which usually are somewhat cheaper than the original version.

Occasionally we get people like Jonas Salk, who offer their patents up to the greater good. Good men do exist.

I don't think most people have a clue as to how corrupt this system really is. But for Christians, I believe it's a no-brainer. (1 John 5:19)

I don’t believe that any “evil one” is in charge of the world.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There are no “wicked” or “rebellious” genes, if that’s what you mean.

Such traits may or may not be present in a person’s offspring, but it certainly isn’t guaranteed – we are all responsible for our OWN actions, not the actions of others – that’s the point. Babies and young children are innocent creatures that certainly don’t deserve death sentences for something someone else has done. You’d think an all-knowing, all-seeing god would be aware of that. I have no use for such an immoral and unjust god.

You assume that God is unjust because you think he acts like a human? This deity, according to scripture, can assess a person's heart and discern their thoughts. Can we do that? I assure you that the one who gave us our sense of justice is not going to corrupt one of his cardinal qualities. He is not capable of injustice. You completely misinterpret his actions because of your own limitations, not because he has them.

Like I said, this is disgusting. I find your god to be utterly immoral for commanding the killing of babies and children.

He has the power and authority over life and death. He can reverse death as easily as awakening a person from sleep. How do you know what he is capable of doing. Please stop assuming that he has limits like we humans do.

So basically your god punishes children for the errors made by their parents. That’s what this says to me. And that’s what the Bible says. And you condone it. And people wonder why I think that religious beliefs can cloud a person’s rational thinking and common sense.

Think about this for a moment.....he does not punish children for the errors of their parents. No child is responsible for what their parents decide to do of their own free will. However, God has made parents responsible for their children. He tells us in the Bible that we can carry our minor children safely through the end of this world system, just by being the kind of parents who care enough about our children to set them a good example and to be the role model they deserve, teaching them to become the kind of people they should be. We hold their lives in our own hands. That is a responsibility that should make parents want to make the necessary adjustments to their thinking and actions to secure their children's future as well as their own. I think its a great incentive. Once the children are old enough to make their own decisions, then God will hold them accountable for their own actions....but until then, they are counted on their parent's 'ticket'.

Yes, I know. So then, what’s wrong with prescription meds like opiates?

Nothing, if they are used correctly. Dependence leads to addictions and addictions have led to overdoses and death. Pain is a fact of life for many people, but there are ways to track down the cause, rather than to just treat the symptoms. As I said, side effects of medications are an indication that the body is not handling that medication very well. Adding more drugs to treat more symptoms is just asking for more problems. Death by doctoring has become a real problem in many western nations.

Nobody is trying to ban coffee because though regular use can produce mild physical dependence, at best. It doesn’t cause severe withdrawal symptoms (if there are any at all), as other drugs do, and people addicted to caffeine aren’t prone to the harmful types of drug-seeking behavior that people addicted to “hard” drugs tend to carry out. That’s probably why.

It seems to me that most drug addicts begin with tobacco and alcohol, and move onto recreational drugs then harder drugs. Methamphetamines seem to be the scourge of choice at present here in Australia. What makes no sense to me is that they will use programs like Methadone to treat heroin addiction but deny access to cannabis, which is a way better way to come down off the heavy stuff. Methadone is still an addictive drug.

I also agree that cannabis is much safer than tobacco and alcohol, though many don’t see it that way. Various peoples and groups have tried (and continue to try) to ban alcohol and tobacco at various times over the last century. Anybody who knows anything about Prohibition in the US knows how well that turned out. I do find drug categorization in the US to be somewhat bizarre and arbitrary.

To classify cannabis as a schedule 1 drug is ridiculous and this monstrous misinformation is still being promoted by the drug companies and fed to governments and their agencies. Doctors need educating.

Improperly used prescription medication is what is costing lives.

I think you need to be more specific here then. Which specific prescription meds are you talking about?

There are quite a few...

In the last 16 years, more than 183,000 Americans have died from overdoses related to prescription opioids.
Most Commonly Overdosed Opioids
EDVisits_300x300.jpg

The most common drugs involved in prescription opioid overdose deaths include:

  • Methadone
  • Oxycodone (such as OxyContin®)
  • Hydrocodone (such as Vicodin®)4
Prescription Opioid Overdose Data | Drug Overdose | CDC Injury Center

Fentanyl is available legally (with a prescription) and illegally (on the black market). It's also 50 times stronger than pure heroin.

Heroin and opioid painkillers — including prescription ones — have a problematic relationship: Research suggests that since they act similarly in the brain, taking one (even "as directed") can increase a person's susceptibility to become hooked on the other.

Deaths from opioid overdoses have jumped — and one age group is being affected at stark rates

I guess it all boils down to why people feel the need to medicate themselves in the first place.....
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I’m not sure you’re qualified to make such an assessment, but no matter.

People in Canada are able to purchase marijuana in its natural form. We’re also able to grow and sell it, with the proper permits.

We can only hope for a ruling like this, but vested interests in high places are blocking it. Unless we have access to the whole plant and can make our own "medicine", the financial benefits of medicinal cannabis will always determine who can make it available and who can access it. Poor substitutes will never work like the natural plant....and what is worse, is that they know it. :(

The costs associated with research and development of new drugs are extremely high, especially given that only a very small amount of the drugs that are tested actually end up on the market. Patents are good for about 10-20 years (depending on what country we’re talking about), after which time generic versions of the drugs are allowed to enter the marketplace, which usually are somewhat cheaper than the original version.

Patents cannot be taken out on a natural plant, which is why those who want to make money from beneficial plants must take components of those plants and either genetically alter them or synthesise them so as to make them financially marketable. This is what costs the huge amounts of money. And there is no evidence that the synthesising and genetic modification of these substances is even compatible with human consumption. No long term studies have been done. When money drives anything, corruption is not far away. :mad:

Occasionally we get people like Jonas Salk, who offer their patents up to the greater good. Good men do exist.

Not enough of them unfortunately. Like all things invented by those who have used their genius to invent things like engines that are non-polluting, oil barons will make sure that they are shelved. Or natural medicines that aid the human immune system, the powers who control these things will always find ways to make sure they never see the light of day. Greed dictates everything in this world.
The earth and the oceans are so polluted that the tons of drugs taken by humans and poured out into the sea from human waste disposal are affecting the fish we eat. Who knows what damage that is doing? :eek:

I don’t believe that any “evil one” is in charge of the world.

Then I believe that he has succeeded with every person he has managed to convince that he doesn't exist. o_O
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You assume that God is unjust because you think he acts like a human?
I think that the God you describe is immoral because I believe that killing babies and children is wrong. That commanding people to kill babies and children is wrong.

Come to think of it though, the traits of this god do come off as pretty human. It’s almost like human beings wrote those old books.

This deity, according to scripture, can assess a person's heart and discern their thoughts.

Well, that’s the claim anyway. Made by the human beings who wrote them.

What kinds of evil thoughts do you suppose babies have, I wonder.

Can we do that? I assure you that the one who gave us our sense of justice is not going to corrupt one of his cardinal qualities. He is not capable of injustice. You completely misinterpret his actions because of your own limitations, not because he has them.

What you describe sounds quite unjust to me. Pardon me for thinking that murdering babies and children is an act of injustice. Whatever was I thinking?!

He has the power and authority over life and death. He can reverse death as easily as awakening a person from sleep. How do you know what he is capable of doing. Please stop assuming that he has limits like we humans do.

Well, I don’t think your god exists at all, so in my estimation, “he” is not capable of doing anything. It’s your beliefs and defense of what you think this god has actually done that alarms me. I mean, I’ve seen you defend slavery, and now here you are defending the murder of babies and children. I have to wonder about the moral compass of people who would defend such terrible and unjust actions. I think if you actually thought about it without the pretext of having to believe it, you’d be just about as alarmed as I am when I hear it.

Think about this for a moment.....he does not punish children for the errors of their parents. No child is responsible for what their parents decide to do of their own free will. However, God has made parents responsible for their children. He tells us in the Bible that we can carry our minor children safely through the end of this world system, just by being the kind of parents who care enough about our children to set them a good example and to be the role model they deserve, teaching them to become the kind of people they should be. We hold their lives in our own hands. That is a responsibility that should make parents want to make the necessary adjustments to their thinking and actions to secure their children's future as well as their own. I think its a great incentive. Once the children are old enough to make their own decisions, then God will hold them accountable for their own actions....but until then, they are counted on their parent's 'ticket'.

Except for all those babies and children that died in the supposed global flood. Except for the babies and children of Amalek. Except for the firstborn children of Egypt. Except for the unborn babies of women who were unfaithful to their husbands. Except for the children of Sodom and Gomorrah. Except for the children of the Hittites or the Amorites or the Canaanites or the Perizzites, or the Hivites. They all seem to have been held responsible for the actions of their parents. Not to mention the fact that we’re all supposedly held accountable for the actions of Adam and Eve.

Nothing, if they are used correctly. Dependence leads to addictions and addictions have led to overdoses and death.

Opiates are also “god-given” then, right?

Pain is a fact of life for many people, but there are ways to track down the cause, rather than to just treat the symptoms.

Suppose the source of the pain is permanent injury from a car accident or rheumatoid arthritis or some other chronic illness.

As I said, side effects of medications are an indication that the body is not handling that medication very well.

As I said, that is not the case. Side effects are a result of the drug’s action(s) on all parts of the body that it comes into contact with. Because it is difficult to create a drug that acts only on the specific part of the body being treated.

Adding more drugs to treat more symptoms is just asking for more problems. Death by doctoring has become a real problem in many western nations.

It depends on the case being discussed.

It seems to me that most drug addicts begin with tobacco and alcohol, and move onto recreational drugs then harder drugs. Methamphetamines seem to be the scourge of choice at present here in Australia. What makes no sense to me is that they will use programs like Methadone to treat heroin addiction but deny access to cannabis, which is a way better way to come down off the heavy stuff. Methadone is still an addictive drug.

Some do. Some don’t. Genetic predisposition plays a role, as well as environment, mental illness and age, to name a few.

When it comes to treating withdrawal and addiction, people will use what works because the alternative is pretty nasty and reducing the immediate threat of harm to the individual is the primary goal. Methadone as a treatment for heroin withdrawal is still around because it works quite effectively for a lot of people, in tandem with a strict and regimented program involving counseling and case management (E.g. Methadone Maintenance Treatment).

If cannabis turns out to be an effective treatment for heroin addiction/withdrawal, it will make its way to the market.

To classify cannabis as a schedule 1 drug is ridiculous and this monstrous misinformation is still being promoted by the drug companies and fed to governments and their agencies. Doctors need educating.

I agree that it’s ridiculous. Not sure I agree with the rest of it given that, 1) In Canada and many US States medical marijuana is available as a treatment for a variety of ailments and, 2) Doctors are educated and are supposed to stay up-to-date on the latest research.

There are quite a few...

In the last 16 years, more than 183,000 Americans have died from overdoses related to prescription opioids.

Most Commonly Overdosed Opioids

The most common drugs involved in prescription opioid overdose deaths include:


  • Methadone
  • Oxycodone (such as OxyContin®)
  • Hydrocodone (such as Vicodin®)4

We agree that improperly used prescription opiates cause a lot of harm.

Prescription Opioid Overdose Data | Drug Overdose | CDC Injury Center

Fentanyl is available legally (with a prescription) and illegally (on the black market). It's also 50 times stronger than pure heroin.

Heroin and opioid painkillers — including prescription ones — have a problematic relationship: Research suggests that since they act similarly in the brain, taking one (even "as directed") can increase a person's susceptibility to become hooked on the other.

Deaths from opioid overdoses have jumped — and one age group is being affected at stark rates

I guess it all boils down to why people feel the need to medicate themselves in the first place.....

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People often self-medicate because they’ve experienced some trauma that is difficult to deal with and have no other way to escape it, or they’re suffering from some mental illness for which proper treatment may not be available to them and they don’t know how else to make the pain go away.

Treatment for mental illness seems to be an afterthought in many countries, including Canada where access to mental health facilities can be costly and hard to come by. That is a problem.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
We can only hope for a ruling like this, but vested interests in high places are blocking it. Unless we have access to the whole plant and can make our own "medicine", the financial benefits of medicinal cannabis will always determine who can make it available and who can access it. Poor substitutes will never work like the natural plant....and what is worse, is that they know it. :(

You need to work for it, like we have in my country. A lot of people have been pushing for a lot of years to make this happen. Not to mention that a lot of research has finally accumulated demonstrating the efficacy of medical marijuana in the treatment of certain illnesses.


Patents cannot be taken out on a natural plant, which is why those who want to make money from beneficial plants must take components of those plants and either genetically alter them or synthesise them so as to make them financially marketable.

This is not the case everywhere.

This is what costs the huge amounts of money. And there is no evidence that the synthesising and genetic modification of these substances is even compatible with human consumption. No long term studies have been done. When money drives anything, corruption is not far away

I’m not sure what substances you are talking about.

Not enough of them unfortunately. Like all things invented by those who have used their genius to invent things like engines that are non-polluting, oil barons will make sure that they are shelved. Or natural medicines that aid the human immune system, the powers who control these things will always find ways to make sure they never see the light of day. Greed dictates everything in this world.

The earth and the oceans are so polluted that the tons of drugs taken by humans and poured out into the sea from human waste disposal are affecting the fish we eat. Who knows what damage that is doing? :eek:

If “natural” medicine worked, it would just be called medicine.

Then I believe that he has succeeded with every person he has managed to convince that he doesn't exist. o_O

Or he just doesn’t exist. ;)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Does Science Agree With the Bible?

The Bible’s answer


"Yes, for although the Bible is not a science textbook, it is accurate when it mentions matters of science. Consider some examples showing that science and the Bible agree and that the Bible contains scientific facts that differed greatly from the beliefs of many people living at the time it was written.

  • The universe had a beginning. (Genesis 1:1) In contrast, many ancient myths describe the universe, not as being created, but as being organized from existing chaos. The Babylonians believed that the gods that gave birth to the universe came from two oceans. Other legends say that the universe came from a giant egg.
  • The universe is governed day-to-day by rational natural laws, not by the whims of deities. (Job 38:33; Jeremiah 33:25) Myths from around the world teach that humans are helpless before the unpredictable and sometimes merciless acts of the gods.
  • The earth is suspended in empty space. (Job 26:7) Many ancient peoples believed that the world was a flat disk supported by a giant or an animal, such as a buffalo or a turtle.
  • Rivers and springs are fed by water that has evaporated from the oceans and other sources and then has fallen back to earth as rain, snow, or hail. (Job 36:27, 28; Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10; Amos 9:6) The ancient Greeks thought that rivers were fed by underground ocean water, and this idea persisted into the 18th century.
  • The mountains rise and fall, and today’s mountains were once under the ocean. (Psalm 104:6, 8) In contrast, several myths say that the mountains were created in their current form by the gods.
  • Sanitary practices protect health. The Law given to the nation of Israel included regulations for washing after touching a dead body, quarantining those with infectious disease, and disposing of human waste safely. (Leviticus 11:28; 13:1-5; Deuteronomy 23:13) By contrast, one of the Egyptian remedies in use when these commands were given called for applying to an open wound a mixture that included human excrement.
Are there scientific errors in the Bible?
A reasonable examination of the Bible shows the answer to be no. Here are some common misconceptions about the scientific accuracy of the Bible:

Myth: The Bible says that the universe was created in six 24-hour days.

Fact: According to the Bible, God created the universe in the indefinite past. (Genesis 1:1) Also, the days of creation described in chapter 1 of Genesis were epochs whose length is not specified. In fact, the entire period during which earth and heaven were made is also called a “day.”—Genesis 2:4.

Myth: The Bible says that vegetation was created before the sun existed to support photosynthesis.—Genesis 1:11, 16.

Fact: The Bible shows that the sun, one of the stars that make up “the heavens,” was created before vegetation. (Genesis 1:1) Diffused light from the sun reached the earth’s surface during the first “day,” or epoch, of creation. As the atmosphere cleared, by the third “day” of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. (Genesis 1:3-5,12, 13) Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth.—Genesis 1:16.

Myth: The Bible says that the sun revolves around the earth.

Fact: Ecclesiastes 1:5 says: “The sun rises, and the sun sets; then it hurries back to the place where it rises again.” However, this statement merely describes the apparent motion of the sun as viewed from the earth. Even today, a person can use the words “sunrise” and “sunset,” yet he knows that the earth revolves around the sun.

Myth: The Bible says that the earth is flat.

Fact: The Bible uses the phrase “the ends of the earth” to mean “the most distant part of the earth”; this does not imply that the earth is flat or that it has an edge. (Acts 1:8; footnote) Likewise, the expression “the four corners of the earth” is a figure of speech referring to the entire surface of the earth; today a person might use the four points of the compass as a similar metaphor.—Isaiah 11:12; Luke 13:29.

Myth: The Bible says that the circumference of a circle is exactly three times its diameter, but the correct value is pi (π), or about 3.1416.

Fact: The measurements of “the Sea of cast metal” given at 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2 indicate that it had a diameter of 10 cubits and that “it took a measuring line 30 cubits long to encircle it.” These dimensions might have been merely the nearest round numbers. It is also possible that the circumference and diameter represented inner and outer measurements of the basin respectively"

Do Science and the Bible Agree? | Bible Questions
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Does Science Agree With the Bible?

The Bible’s answer


"Yes, for although the Bible is not a science textbook, it is accurate when it mentions matters of science. Consider some examples showing that science and the Bible agree and that the Bible contains scientific facts that differed greatly from the beliefs of many people living at the time it was written.


  • The universe had a beginning. (Genesis 1:1) In contrast, many ancient myths describe the universe, not as being created, but as being organized from existing chaos. The Babylonians believed that the gods that gave birth to the universe came from two oceans. Other legends say that the universe came from a giant egg.
  • The universe is governed day-to-day by rational natural laws, not by the whims of deities. (Job 38:33; Jeremiah 33:25) Myths from around the world teach that humans are helpless before the unpredictable and sometimes merciless acts of the gods.
  • The earth is suspended in empty space. (Job 26:7) Many ancient peoples believed that the world was a flat disk supported by a giant or an animal, such as a buffalo or a turtle.
  • Rivers and springs are fed by water that has evaporated from the oceans and other sources and then has fallen back to earth as rain, snow, or hail. (Job 36:27, 28; Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10; Amos 9:6) The ancient Greeks thought that rivers were fed by underground ocean water, and this idea persisted into the 18th century.
  • The mountains rise and fall, and today’s mountains were once under the ocean. (Psalm 104:6, 8) In contrast, several myths say that the mountains were created in their current form by the gods.
  • Sanitary practices protect health. The Law given to the nation of Israel included regulations for washing after touching a dead body, quarantining those with infectious disease, and disposing of human waste safely. (Leviticus 11:28; 13:1-5; Deuteronomy 23:13) By contrast, one of the Egyptian remedies in use when these commands were given called for applying to an open wound a mixture that included human excrement.

This is classic Texas sharpshooter fallacy. What has been done is to compare a list of all biblical claims about scientific matters to the scientific account with the intention of preserving only those pairs of ideas that be said to be similar or identical. The aspects of each list with no counterpart on the other, such as the presence of a firmament separating the waters above from those below, and the inflationary epoch of the early universe are simply ignored.
  • Texas sharpshooter fallacy, "an informal fallacy which is committed when differences in data are ignored, but similarities are stressed. From this reasoning, a false conclusion is inferred."
the days of creation described in chapter 1 of Genesis were epochs whose length is not specified. In fact, the entire period during which earth and heaven were made is also called a “day.”

The length of the day is specified by the use of the terms morning and evening. There is no reason to believe that the biblical authors didn't mean that days of Genesis were 24 hour days, that creation didn't occur as specified, and that this was meant literally and to be believed literally.

Myth: The Bible says that vegetation was created before the sun existed to support photosynthesis.—Genesis 1:11, 16.

Yep. Those two scriptures make it pretty clear that the Bible authors thought that vegetation was created before sunlight.

Myth: The Bible says that the earth is flat.

Fact: The Bible uses the phrase “the ends of the earth” to mean “the most distant part of the earth”; this does not imply that the earth is flat or that it has an edge. (Acts 1:8; footnote) Likewise, the expression “the four corners of the earth” is a figure of speech referring to the entire surface of the earth; today a person might use the four points of the compass as a similar metaphor.—Isaiah 11:12; Luke 13:29.

Once again, there is no reason to believe that the ends and corners of the earth were not meant literally at the time the words were written and for centuries thereafter. Even by the age of exploration, there were fears among Christians that if one sailed too far, the ship might go over the edge of the earth.

Myth: The Bible says that the circumference of a circle is exactly three times its diameter, but the correct value is pi (π), or about 3.1416.

Fact: The measurements of “the Sea of cast metal” given at 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2 indicate that it had a diameter of 10 cubits and that “it took a measuring line 30 cubits long to encircle it.” These dimensions might have been merely the nearest round numbers.

Then the Bible would be in error for using round numbers. Why not say that creation occurred over 10 days - the nearest round number to 6? Or that the trinity represents zero components, the nearest round number to 3.

It is also possible that the circumference and diameter represented inner and outer measurements of the basin respectively"

In that case, the thickness of the circular wall needs to be specified as well. To correct the error, we would need to use a 30 cubit interior circumference, a 10 cubit outer circumference, and a wall about 0.225 cubits thick. For the interior circle to have a 30 cubit circumference, it would have to have a 30 / π = 9.55 cubit inner diameter, which is shorter than the outer diameter by about 0.45 cubits, the difference being twice the thickness of the circular wall. This is the only way that the inner circumference could be three times larger than the outer diameter.

So much for round numbers.

It might benefit you to know who this kind of apologetics is intended for. It's not skeptics. It's for people that already believe. This kind of thing doesn't convincing. It only reassures those that need it in a world where science challenges faith. Presenting it to skeptics just allows us to find and expose the flaws in the apologetics.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Myth: The Bible says that vegetation was created before the sun existed to support photosynthesis.—Genesis 1:11, 16.

Fact: The Bible shows that the sun, one of the stars that make up “the heavens,” was created before vegetation. (Genesis 1:1) Diffused light from the sun reached the earth’s surface during the first “day,” or epoch, of creation. As the atmosphere cleared, by the third “day” of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. (Genesis 1:3-5,12, 13) Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth.—Genesis 1:16.
Genesis 1:1 don't mention the "sun" at all. Genesis 1:1 don't even mention any "star". All it say, it created the earth and heavens at the same time.

Genesis 1:1 said:
1 In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,

All it say is the earth is in darkness, there's water/abyss and there were winds.

No "Sun" was ever mentioned in the verses 3 to 5 as well, when light was created on the first day.

Genesis 1:3-5 said:
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

You are making things up, twisting the word heavens to include stars and sun, in Genesis 1:1. The only time Sun and stars are mentioned or alluded to in verses 14 to 19:

Genesis 1:14-19 said:
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

It say "God made" or "God created" these two lights or 2 luminaries in other translations on the 4th day.

So yes, it does say lights (Sun and moon) were created after the vegetation were created.


Myth: The Bible says that the universe was created in six 24-hour days.

Fact: According to the Bible, God created the universe in the indefinite past. (Genesis 1:1) Also, the days of creation described in chapter 1 of Genesis were epochs whose length is not specified. In fact, the entire period during which earth and heaven were made is also called a “day.”—Genesis 2:4.

Again, you are taking he verses out of context.

The mention of each creative day - "evening" & "morning" provide the context that "day" is a normal day.

It is the cycle of "And there was evening and there was morning..." that give yom specific time frame.

The transliterated word "yom" would only be unspecified if there were no mention of "...there was evening and there was morning" were omitted from verses 5, 8, 13, 19, 23 & 31.

You are completely ignoring Genesis saying "And there was evening and there was morning..." when you say a day length is "not specified", which makes you a liar.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Myth: The Bible says that the sun revolves around the earth.

Fact: Ecclesiastes 1:5 says: “The sun rises, and the sun sets; then it hurries back to the place where it rises again.” However, this statement merely describes the apparent motion of the sun as viewed from the earth. Even today, a person can use the words “sunrise” and “sunset,” yet he knows that the earth revolves around the sun.

No that doesn't say the Earth revolved around the Sun, because the moon also rise and set in precisely the same location.

If we use "rise" and "set" as indications Earth orbiting the sun, then that would mean the Earth is also orbiting around the moon and around the 5 known planets (Uranus and Neptune were never observable at that time).

And beside that, the ancient Egyptian and Babylonian astronomers have also used have also noted the sunrise and sunset too. And they like the ancient Israelite astronomers though the sun disappeared in the western horizon, thinking it entered a cave, where it traveled underground, reappearing on the eastern horizon.

Such a belief, that the earth is fixed, and the sun and moon moving across the sky, is known as geocentric model, popularised by Aristotle and Claudius Ptolemy.

Genesis 1:14-17 indicated the two lights (Sun and moon), not only separated day from night, but that moved in the domes, so it describing the sky as if it was roof or ceiling. This is indication that the Earth is flat, and the sky is dome (NRSV), vault (NIV) or firmament (KJV).

Joshua 10, in the battle against the Amorites at Gibeon, God stopped the sun and moon from moving across the sky, more indication in the belief in geocentric model.
Joshua 10:12-13 said:
12 On the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the Israelites, Joshua spoke to the Lord; and he said in the sight of Israel,

“Sun, stand still at Gibeon,
and Moon, in the valley of Aijalon.”
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,
until the nation took vengeance on their enemies.

Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in midheaven, and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It might benefit you to know who this kind of apologetics is intended for. It's not skeptics. It's for people that already believe. This kind of thing doesn't convincing. It only reassures those that need it in a world where science challenges faith. Presenting it to skeptics just allows us to find and expose the flaws in the apologetics.

Or dig their own graves....? I guess we all find what we seek.
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You are completely ignoring Genesis saying "And there was evening and there was morning..." when you say a day length is "not specified", which makes you a liar.

Personal attacks again gnostic? Evidence of poor defense. Also against the forum rules.

Ever used the phrase the "dawn of a new era" or "in my grandfather's day"? Periods that begin and end can be referred to in this way. Genesis 2:4 calls the whole creative process, "a day".
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Personal attacks again gnostic? Evidence of poor defense. Also against the forum rules.

23 & 31Ever used the phrase the "dawn of a new era" or "in my grandfather's day"? Periods that begin and end can be referred to in this way. Genesis 2:4 calls the whole creative process, "a day".
What does a period of one evening and a morning, if it isn't a day?

That yom is always used together with "And there was evening and there was morning..." in verses 5, 8, 13, 19, 23 & 31, showed what the context for yom is - a day.

It is only not specific time period if verses in Genesis 1 were to leave out "And there was evening and there was morning..."

So what does "And there was evening and there was morning..." mean if it isn't a day?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So what does "And there was evening and there was morning..." mean if it isn't a day?

The term “day(s)” is used with reference to a time period contemporaneous with a particular person, as for example, “the days of Noah” and “the days of Lot.”—Luke 17:26-30; Isaiah 1:1. "Yohm" can mean "day" or "days".

According to Strongs,

The KJV translates Strong's H3117 (day, yom) in the following manner:

day (2,008x), time (64x), chronicles (with H1697) (37x), daily (44x), ever (18x), year (14x), continually (10x), when (10x), as (10x), while (8x), full 8 always (4x), whole (4x), alway (4x), miscellaneous (44x).

Not a word with a singular meaning.

Other cases where the word “day” is used in a flexible or figurative sense are: “the day of God’s creating Adam” (Ge 5:1), “the day of Jehovah” (Zep 1:7), the “day of fury” (Zep 1:15), “the day of salvation” (2Co 6:2), “the day of judgment” (2Pe 3:7), “the great day of God the Almighty” (Re 16:14), and others.

This flexible use of the word “day” to express units of time of varying length is clearly evident in the Genesis account of creation. Therein is set forth a week of six creative days followed by a seventh day of rest. The week assigned for observance by the Jews under the Law covenant given them by God was a miniature copy of that creative week. (Ex 20:8-11) In the Scriptural record the account of each of the six creative days concludes with the statement: “And there came to be evening and there came to be morning” a first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth day. (Ge 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31) The seventh day, however, does not have this ending, indicating that this period, during which God has been resting from his creative works toward the earth, continued on. At Hebrews 4:1-10 the apostle Paul indicated that God’s rest day was still continuing in his generation, and that was more than 4,000 years after that seventh-day rest period began. This makes it evident that each creative day, or work period, was at least thousands of years in length. As A Religious Encyclopædia (Vol. I, p. 613) observes: “The days of creation were creative days, stages in the process, but not days of twenty-four hours each.”—Edited by P. Schaff, 1894.

The entire period of the six time units or creative “days” dedicated to the preparation of planet Earth is summed up in one all-embracing “day” at Genesis 2:4: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.”
 
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