Just curious...why don't

[Peter26]

Maybe they don't need to be defended. Why does your god need to be defended with so much literature and apologetics?

Well the beauties of having a God who will not go back to heaven without dying for us first so that we can be with him forever is compelling and wonderful.

A God who delivers us from sin, our own brokenness, proves his truth in his own resurrection and wins victory over death for his people is compelling and wonderful. For this reason many have found such a blessed view worth defending. Especially when we hear the message as truth.

I very rarely hear such a passionate declaration in support of any of these other gods. Not to say they don't exist, but the number of those testimonies which exist in defense of Jesus adds to the effect.

I would say in the end truth should be defended no matter which truth it is. More than that a truth about the whole universe ought to be defended. There is a moral obligation to do so on the Christian view. On those other views they might not desire it to be defended but that is so much the worse for those views. Truth matters.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Though I may not believe as other people or cultures do, I love learning about them or experiencing them

This is the key. I rarely see people on RF ask or learn about the nature of other entities other than the god of abraham regardless of their belief or disbelief. One doesnt need to search to ask about the existence of a hindu deity. I notice when someone ask a good question about the GOA believers think they are searching for christ. Likewise, in your post you thought maybe I asked you to search outside of your faith to look at others. (I have no reason....)

We dont need go be searching for anything nor be seekers to ask questions about the nature of something. I will never change the relationship I have with my ancestral spirits because I cannot separate myself from them regardless what I may take up as a religion. They are embedded in me.

That doesnt mean I cant ask the nature of say how Muslims define Allah or how a Jew explains scripture in the context of his cultural outlook (since they cant talk about the natue of god).

I would think maybe learning about other gods "from the believers not books and online" would be more interesting since we have exhausted the topic of whether GOA exists and how to prove it. Never know. If one ask a hard polytheist about their god/entities it may give a perspective that not all gods need to reflect the GOA.

One day.

 

[Milton Platt]

It certainty, especially when there are billions of concepts, and comparing what ?, a concept.

phsycoslice, it would be a really cool thing if that avatar was really a picture of you. LOL

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita I think that the reason most people talk about the Abrahamic God is because he is the most compelling, beautiful and defensible view of God. Look at the mountains of literature that exists in those three areas for the Christian God.

Most other gods are hardly even defensible. The literature that exists to defend other gods pales in comparison in regards to quantity and quality.

Not only that answering this as a Christian, according to our understanding all have Gods image and are therefore captivated by him in differing degrees. So to see many inquiring about him only confirms what is already taught.

Why would other god(s) need to defend themselves? I actually think that's a good thing because no one seems to be challenged by these other god(s). All the Hindu gods I read about have very positive attributes even under their stories. The gods of Buddhism and most specifically the Bodhisattvas and Buddhas alike (which are not gods but the latter manifestations of the original Buddha) are mirrors of different positive qualities The Buddha himself have and we all have.

Another positive attribute of Buddhist gods is that they are no different in status than humans. Hindu even though they have different status, their nature is quite different than the Muslim, Jewish, and Christian outlook of their gods and their corresponding religions and hybrid religions that, unfortunately, took their lead given colonization etc.

That, and the mountains do not suggest any specific religions god nor does it suggest there is a creator. At it's bare bones, without us, mountains, the earth, et cetera creates itself by formation and fluctuation of sorts. It doesn't pop out of thin air. Like a baby doesn't pop out of thin air, nor do trees, and humans are no special in those regards.

I'm also taking a fasting break of talking about the god of abraham because the biblical depiction of him regardless of denomination still has a negative undertone. It places the believer below and god above; and that hierarchy relationship alone is not a godly characteristic but a human one. In biblical view, it's a lot of Roman politics. To tell you honestly, I'd rather talk about Judaism than Christianity. The Romans etc really put a bad stain on Judaism; and, that, the reformation was supposed to "reform" and take what was original christian (from the Church) back to Jesus' day but not realizing that the teachings of Jesus' day was not Christianity, it was Judaism. The Apostles, after Jesus' death, made Christianity what it started out to be. So, Christians are not, biblically speaking, following Jesus (because they don't know him outside of the apostles depiction of him) nor are they following the god of Judaism (given many have put aside Judaism in favor of Christ). It's a hybrid of different beliefs.

So, after all the discussion on RF, my own study, and experience (good experiences) in Christianity, I have a more positive aura and less pressure asking about other gods than the GOA. I assume that the word god would soon be diminished as a "Christian" word as we understand the nature of various gods not just the god christians, muslims, and jews (and in between) worship.

 

[Willamena]

Why would other god(s) need to defend themselves?

No one, not even a god, needs to defend themselves unless they are attacked. The real question is why attack these gods.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No one, not even a god, needs to defend themselves unless they are attacked. The real question is why attack these gods.

I think it's more attacking the idea of these gods. It's really attacking believers because without believers, what god are you guys attacking?

 

[psychoslice]

phsycoslice, it would be a really cool thing if that avatar was really a picture of you. LOL

Ha, see what I can do, yea yea.

 

[Jainarayan]

A God who delivers us from sin, our own brokenness, proves his truth in his own resurrection and wins victory over death for his people is compelling and wonderful.

You have to understand that not everyone believes in sin or the need for salvation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Peter26 Hey. By the way, you can signal us by keeping our quotes in your reply or typing @User'sName. For example,

[QUOTE: User 353534] Yahadadad [/QUOTE]

Keep the quote or shorten it a bit so whoever you want to talk to will be "paged" or the other method with the @ sign as well. Just in case you didn't know cause I didn't get your page but ran across your post.

 

[Peter26]

We dont need go be searching for anything nor be seekers to ask questions about the nature of something. I will never change the relationship I have with my ancestral spirits because I cannot separate myself from them regardless what I may take up as a religion. They are embedded in me.

One day.

How do you know this? From your view can we have subjective experiences as a validation that this justifies our perspective? If that is your principle of justification how do you rule out mutually exclusive and contradictory subjective revelations?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How do you know this? From your view can we have subjective experiences as a validation that this justifies our perspective? If that is your principle of justification how do you rule out mutually exclusive and contradictory subjective revelations?

You have to forgive me, but I'm slow on language. This sounds like a tongue twister. From my view, how can subjective experiences validate and justify our perspective?

I am not one to say my belief is everyone else's. I wasn't raised that way. Honestly, and bluntly, I know my beliefs are facts. So my experiences and other people's experiences and general knowledge of life leads me to not only believe ancestral spirits are embedded in me but to actually get to know them. To build a relationship and have them in my life and, through them, guidance. It's objective. Who can say they are not part of their biological mother's blood? Who can say that their memories and feelings about their loved one just disappeared in the mist? Just some of us the feeling is beyond just feelings and memories. We actually have physical experiences that confirm these feelings. Whether other people believe it or not, it's not my place to judge. Though, it being a fact in and of itself justifies what I know is true rather than what I believe.

I don't understand what you mean by this: "mutually exclusive and contradictory subjective revelations" can you rephrase?

 

[Willamena]

I think it's more attacking the idea of these gods.

That is the sort of attack that I meant, yes.

It's really attacking believers because without believers, what god are you guys attacking?

Beliefs and believers are distinct.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Beliefs and believers are distinct.

Actually, there're not. If you attack my belief, you are attacking who I am as a person and all my family and souls who make up who I am. My beliefs are me. I dont know why some of us talk about them as if they are separate. If you take up a belief system, that "system" would be engraved in you. Its how you interpret reality.

Its who you are not what you believe.

So if a person insults christ they insult he christian. Likewize, god, and multiple other beliefs that make up a persons identity not a system they take up.

 

[Etritonakin]

This is the key. I rarely see people on RF ask or learn about the nature of other entities other than the god of abraham regardless of their belief or disbelief. One doesnt need to search to ask about the existence of a hindu deity. I notice when someone ask a good question about the GOA believers think they are searching for christ. Likewise, in your post you thought maybe I asked you to search outside of your faith to look at others. (I have no reason....)

We dont need go be searching for anything nor be seekers to ask questions about the nature of something. I will never change the relationship I have with my ancestral spirits because I cannot separate myself from them regardless what I may take up as a religion. They are embedded in me.

That doesnt mean I cant ask the nature of say how Muslims define Allah or how a Jew explains scripture in the context of his cultural outlook (since they cant talk about the natue of god).

I would think maybe learning about other gods "from the believers not books and online" would be more interesting since we have exhausted the topic of whether GOA exists and how to prove it. Never know. If one ask a hard polytheist about their god/entities it may give a perspective that not all gods need to reflect the GOA.

One day.

I have found that it can be difficult to discuss the beliefs of others in person -only a little less so online -because such beliefs are often at their core or foundation, and are very personal.
Though beliefs are an important part of a person, I am also more interested in the person themselves -what they have made with what they have been given -their dreams, feelings, accomplishments, etc...
Beliefs eventually become part of the conversation, but I find it best to let them bring up the subject.

While it can be interesting to learn about the beliefs of others, we eventually see how we are in agreement or how we are not -and where there can be no agreement, it is often best to acknowledge that and find another subject to discuss.

But... since the conversation seems friendly and wanted....

Do you believe that your ancestors are presently alive in some way and able to communicate with you?

As I believe, those who have died are unaware -as asleep -until resurrected later (with few exceptions).

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I know no gods exist

You can't know that something doesn't exist, unless its impossible, like a three-sided square that's simultaneously red and blue all over!

It's hard for some to see because they feel since their experiences are external, it must come from an external source.

I can see a tree outside my window. I know that it's external, because other people can see it and because I can't make it go away. Of course, we can be mistaken: the whistling sound in my right ear is not external, although it sounds like it, because no-one else can hear it and it started after inner-ear disease. And not everything is accessible to everyone. For me, the leaves on trees are mostly brown and the "go" traffic light is grey, but I take other people's word for it that they are some mysterious thing called green.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You can't know that something doesn't exist, unless its impossible, like a three-sided square that's simultaneously red and blue all over!

I can see a tree outside my window. I know that it's external, because other people can see it and because I can't make it go away. Of course, we can be mistaken: the whistling sound in my right ear is not external, although it sounds like it, because no-one else can hear it and it started after inner-ear disease. And not everything is accessible to everyone. For me, the leaves on trees are mostly brown and the "go" traffic light is grey, but I take other people's word for it that they are some mysterious thing called green.

Think about it, though. If there were no books and people's claims, how would you conclude or even be agnostic about something that "may" exist? That's like concluding that the dishes I just washed in my kitchen is siting next to me in my bed room on the desk. Is it there? No. I know this. I can't "see" it. There is no proof that says it isn't there. Out of my logic (1. washing the dishes in the kitchen 2. Puting the dishes in the dish rack 3. Walking out bare handed) why would I assume or even be agnostic about dishes on my desk that in my brain computes doesn't exist?

People can write endless books about the dishes on my desk. They can share their experiences about washing dishes in the kitchen and poof! they see the dishes on their desk. Others can sense their are objects next to them regardless the logic of them walking out of the kitchen with nothing in their hands. My brain doesn't work that way. If two and two is four, I'm not going to be agnostic and think "maybe it is five because we can't prove it isn't even though we have clear evidence in history and human thinking and just logic that it is four."

Knowledge of gods non-existence has to do with understanding human history, chronology, the human psyche, and just a whole lot of things that make up why and how we believe what we do from tradition (regardless if it's Pagan, Christian, Buddhist), to I don't know any number of things.

What would give me a reason to think a god does exist?



What we experience is internal. That's basic psychology. What we perceive and how we interpret our experiences are not just how we react to it externally (say get angry and hit your boss) but internally (say feel your boss is plotting against you that's why you think you got fired).

It is completely natural and part of the human psyche. There is nothing wrong with that.

I can see a tree outside my window. I know that it's external, because other people can see it and because I can't make it go away.​

This means objective rather than external. You can see a tree regardless if other people see it or not. However, because other people see it, it's not "just your imagination." For some reason, no one takes people's word for it unless X amount of people seen it too.

Why would we not externalize our strong personal feelings and beliefs? It's a natural reaction. I experienced (internally) the thought my grandmothers (or spirits, one of the two or all) push me back from getting hit by a car. That was my first thought and I know (belief confirmed by fact) that it is true. The experience is external because I literally was pushed back. However, without my externalizing it by whatever means as we do in all our psychological thinking, then it would just be thoughts. However, our thoughts sometimes do bring on actions.

In this case, it was an external stimili (the car) that brought on the external action (the push) that lead to an automatic conclusion that (grandma/spirits) protected me. It's alright that it is both origin from our mind and outside our mind.

Many people believe god is external. He comes into the soul of a person and then they get internal feelings of love etc. Their feelings are a confirmation of the existence and presence of god.

For me, it's the other way around. Everything originates from the mind. How we perceive things and interpret things. So my external experiences (tree being green to, I don't know, my experience with the sacraments of Christ) brought on internal experiences. Those internal experiences (rather than external) confirmed what I experienced is true.

People always call people crazy for things like believing in god or signs of depression they are not educated in knowing the symptoms of. The mind is a powerful tool. If we think our internal experiences (say god) are external, than it's defeating the point of what spirituality is. It's not just eating food and drinking water. The lifestyle is a part of your being.

That's why I feel it's idolism etc to see the Bible, Quran, Lotus Sutra, etc as sacred objects because is starts internally. The source is internal. Call it soul, spirit, or psyche, doesn't matter.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@DavidMcCann Sorry for the long post.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I guess I'm talking more on RF. In person it's extremely hard unless that person (like almost everyone where I live) make their belief a part of their everyday language.

I have found that it can be difficult to discuss the beliefs of others in person -only a little less so online -because such beliefs are often at their core or foundation, and are very personal.

Yeah. I try to avoid it at places, say, at work. My co-worker is a hardstone Christian and I can't get by two sentences without her mentioning god or Christ in it. It's genuine; but, say, if I ask her advice, she'd revert to the Bible and give me an example of what an apostle said or messenger etc. Unfortunately, it doesn't help with situations like asking what classes I should take next semester. It works for her, so...

It's like that with most people here. So beliefs aren't separate. When you ask someone about who they are where I live, you are asking them their faith rather than favorite color type of thing. I learned its best to be specific.

Do you believe that your ancestors are presently alive in some way and able to communicate with you?

Yes, most definitely. They are alive and mostly communicate through my grandmothers as I don't know too much about family outside of what my family living today tells me. When they talk to me directly, I usually say thank you. I'm finding ways to communicate with them more. It's a growing process. It feels off when it's just a one way communication.

As I believe, those who have died are unaware -as asleep -until resurrected later (with few exceptions).

I've never really understood that other than physical death and our body turns to ashes. Why would one want to resurrect the body when we are spirit?

 

[idav]

Why don't you guys debate about the existence and nature of god(s) of other religions that aren't the god of Abraham?

I find the Hindu, Pagan, and other religious god(s) a lot more worth discussing the nature. I know a lot of people don't question or think about the nature of their god(s), but then they do the Abrahamic god... if god is god, why question the nature of one god and not your own?

Just thought it would be nice to discuss other god(s) once in awhile. Doesn't have to be a debate; but, if there were one, that would be unique since I haven't seen that done on RF. Doesn't matter if it's important to you or not. (Obvious that the GOA seems to have importance to some extent). Just thinking why the god of Abraham?

This has a lot to do with Abrahamic religions claiming more than half the worlds religious population, and more so when talking about the west. I for one am more than happy to discuss other theological concepts.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This has a lot to do with Abrahamic religions claiming more than half the worlds religious population, and more so when talking about the west. I for one am more than happy to discuss other theological concepts.

Probably more reason to talk about oher gods. Gain new perspective without it reflecting off GOA bias.