No evil person will escape God/Allah and anyone thinking evil people can escape God with respect to their sins are evil themselves and judging in a evil way.
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Justifying the belief in hell.
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No evil person will escape God/Allah and anyone thinking evil people can escape God with respect to their sins are evil themselves and judging in a evil way.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
And if one is merely "neutral?" What then? What if one readily admits that they are this and professes to be such? What happens?
You theists and your good versus bad dichotomies. It's old, and tired, unfortunate and disgusting. And yes... yes I am threatening you with being those things if you don't stop... because that IS the way I will see you. But at least I am honest about these threats - and I don't pretend I am doing everyone such a great service by threatening them left and right. You either care what I have to say or you don't... I get that wholly, because right now, I have so little care about the things you say... you have no idea. Sure they rile me up with an idea to try and get someone (you, in this case) to see what I believe to be the complete error of their ways, but in the end... what you have to say doesn't sway me toward your end of the argument even one tiny shred. Zero. Absolute zero is how much any of these words you have said have moved me. Is God compelling you to say these things, do you think? If so... then maybe you ought to ask him to hire another representative, or get some new material. This all just sucks.
I said there is neutral ground but we won't be dealing with this territory here.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Your words are less than worthless.
You know I've seen many times people attack the concept of hell on these forums. I'm discussing the concept, it's a sensitive one, but I'm just showing why I believe in it.
It seems people want people to never present their reasoning and then will accuse the people of blindly believing.
If we don't follow guidance of God - and instead of follow misguidance and conjecture, the Quran says, there is consequences from turning away from the path of God and guidance and opposing his signs. The consequences is hellfire.
To me it makes sense, because goodness and evil are not alike, nor those who walk away from God and run towards vain desires and darkness can be equated to those who tread the rivers of light and path of God.
To me it makes sense, because goodness and evil are not alike, nor those who walk away from God and run towards vain desires and darkness can be equated to those who tread the rivers of light and path of God.
The want to be guided towards God and follow his guidance is original human nature. The path of deceiving oneself it's okay to immerse yourself in conjecture and falsehood rather then strive for guidance, pray for guidance and find guidance of God is from the sorcery of Iblis.
Giving into the sorcery of Iblis and letting his unclear spirit and energy take over your soul has consequences. Losing your soul while God's Guardian King on earth is fighting for you soul and too with you, has consequences.
Giving into the sorcery of Iblis and letting his unclear spirit and energy take over your soul has consequences. Losing your soul while God's Guardian King on earth is fighting for you soul and too with you, has consequences.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
This is NOT all you are doing. You are bringing forth your support of passages that assume that anyone who denies hell is wicked. That isn't intellectual or honest. That's bias. Plain and simple. You want to pretend like you are above all this base language I keep using to demean these crappy thoughts... but you're not... you just push forward "The Quran" and either let the Quran do the exact same things for you, or do the exact same things yourself but with "The Quran" as your sole justification, and its own justification... calling non-belief "wicked" and implying that the people who hold that position are inferior and worthy of pain and suffering. I am quite sure you think your beliefs are a "part of you" - that the literal "you" is represented by them. So if they are attacked, then "you" are being attacked. Religious beliefs matter about as much as whether or not one can roll their tongue into a taco shape. Seriously. if I told you that the fact that you couldn't roll your tongue was a sign that you were wicked, what would you think of my ideas? Now reverse that. That's what I think of yours.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Seriously... does anyone know why this site doesn't have a "thumbs down" or "dislike" rating? Do you? I'll tell you exactly why... because some poster's posts would be pummeled so hard with those ratings that it would scare them away from posting again. That's why.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? The above is EXACTLY what you do. Exactly.
Heaven and hell are the potential in our own self. There is no independent force of evil, evil is remoteness from God.
The further we move away from the source of light, the darker it becomes.
So all the blessings and warnings talk of that struggle we have from our own choices, do we embrace the light, or do we choose the darkness of materialism?
Isaiah 45:7 shows us that Good and Lack of Good is from God, that Evil is our choice.
" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
We are created at the End of Darkness and the beginning of the Light and the Mesengers of God are given so we can choose the light, or reject the light, the Image we are created in.
Regards Tony
Colt
Well-Known Member
Yes, the way of the transgressor is hard. The Father is forgiving, that's why he allowed Satan to rebel, there was hope he would repent.
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
There is no love in a place of torment. There is no justice in eternal torture. The notion that God has a place like it is grotesque and evil.
In the first book of the Bible we are told that God created the heaven and the earth in the beginning. At the end of the same chapter it says: "After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good."-Genesis 1:31.
Everything that God made was not just good, but very good.
When Adam and Eve sinned they were not condemned to a place of eternal torment. They were told that the day they would sin is the day they would die, cease to exist.
The penalty of sin is death. And those who have died have paid for their sins:
" For the wages sin pays is death."-Romans 6:23.
A person who has ceased to exist, who has died, no longer has to pay the wages of his sin as they have been paid. I have come to know the good hand of my good God, and the idea of burning people in a "hell" could never even enter into his pure and kind heart. When he saw people burning their children in the idols to false gods he even stated as much:
"They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart."-Jeremiah 7:31.
The idea of burning people has never entered into God's heart. He could never do such a thing. Now imagine, if doing such a thing but for a moment while the baby was dying, how much less for eternity. Where is the justice in burning a sinner for eternity for a few years of sin? And at that a sinner is not even in control of being born a sinner. It is a plague we have no control over. And that is why God has seen to it to rectify things and redeem us from sin and death.
No, this God you are talking about does not only not exist, he never could.
In the first book of the Bible we are told that God created the heaven and the earth in the beginning. At the end of the same chapter it says: "After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good."-Genesis 1:31.
Everything that God made was not just good, but very good.
When Adam and Eve sinned they were not condemned to a place of eternal torment. They were told that the day they would sin is the day they would die, cease to exist.
The penalty of sin is death. And those who have died have paid for their sins:
" For the wages sin pays is death."-Romans 6:23.
A person who has ceased to exist, who has died, no longer has to pay the wages of his sin as they have been paid. I have come to know the good hand of my good God, and the idea of burning people in a "hell" could never even enter into his pure and kind heart. When he saw people burning their children in the idols to false gods he even stated as much:
"They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart."-Jeremiah 7:31.
The idea of burning people has never entered into God's heart. He could never do such a thing. Now imagine, if doing such a thing but for a moment while the baby was dying, how much less for eternity. Where is the justice in burning a sinner for eternity for a few years of sin? And at that a sinner is not even in control of being born a sinner. It is a plague we have no control over. And that is why God has seen to it to rectify things and redeem us from sin and death.
No, this God you are talking about does not only not exist, he never could.
Methinks Heaven and Hell are both fantasies, but easy ones to pass through the critical curtain of doubt - for some.
God's wrath is a reality, of course, God could have saved us all from it, but he created this world as a trial - and our life is not a vain test. The vision by which we see God is through God's light and that is the leader. In that light, hell and heaven are a reality that will be fully loud and seen on the day of judgment.
There is no mercy in hell, it perpetuates and doubles and doubles the punishment whatever type it is, whatever level of hell one enters, there is no end because it's God Wrath and Anger which is severe and absolutely severe in it's proper place and his hate of evil is great.
There is no mercy in hell, it perpetuates and doubles and doubles the punishment whatever type it is, whatever level of hell one enters, there is no end because it's God Wrath and Anger which is severe and absolutely severe in it's proper place and his hate of evil is great.
I don’t know. It depends. Maybe in the same place Muslims go if the Christian God is true, and viceversa. Among all possible combinations, including the scenario where God sends theists to hell, which cannot be excluded a-priori.
so, the position of the atheist is not significantly different from the position of the theist, for what concerns eternal destinies.
ciao
- viole
What you said is true. But ultimately, believing in the true God can be done. If you need miracles, as God to show you miracles. It seems Atheists all believe if God exists, he can show himself clearly. I agree with them, but what they don't understand is how people move goalposts when shown miracles and accuse the doer of being a sorcerer that he inherited from the past or gained knowledge of.
Convince yourself truly miracles would be a proof and pray for God to show you them. Not asking you to believe in God to pray to him, just pray to him with the clause "If you exist, you can show miracles. I won't reject the miracles but accept the Guide who shows them".
All God wants is hearts submissive enough and not rebellious towards his signs and proofs, and he will show them.
Well, most if not all religions claim miracles from their respective deities. Surely more than one. So, I am not sure how that can be used as an epistemic tool to choose the right God, assuming there is such a thing.
ok, my fiend lost his arm because of an accident. I will pray (please plug in here who I am should pray to) so that he grows a new perfectly functioning arm. And let us check outcome.
deal?
ciao
- viole
Well your friend accept the miracle? If he will, he can ask God to do it by the Guide's hand and it will happen I believe. Make a plan, be sincere, ask him to ready his heart for the miracle. Let me know the result.
I truly believe people who don't witness miracles are only those who aren't ready for them but will rather accuse the doers in their rebellious state of sorcery or being possessed by other powerful beings.