"Karen" or "Becky" are not sexist or racist nor are the equivalent to any racial pejoratives

[Shakeel]

Better still. "Keisha"

It's the 'K' I think that's the special magical ingredient for making a good pejorative term out of a popular and common proper noun.

No, no. Keisha sounds like Geisha. To insult women you have to make it as though they were unattractive and incompetent as women. You cannot give the impression of them being sexual.

 

[Shakeel]

Making a joke about someone's name pales in comparison to making a false allegation that costs the life of an innocent person.

It's still wrong. And what if that someone ends up committing suicide?

 

[Shakeel]

Let me ask you what is more tragic this?

or This?

I have no idea what I'm lookig at. Are women with phones behind everything that's wrong in the world? Did this woman cause this to happen? Are you accusing her of the former? If not then you shouldn't have posted her picture like this.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Angry black man, angry white woman.. It's just an adjective. It's normal to assume that a person who raises their voice is angry. If you don't want to be seen as angry, don't raise your voice. Or maybe don't complain so much.

Sigh......The block list is going to get longer....

It is not about being angry or complaining I was using an example. Some people naturally carry their voice and elevate the tone which may be perceived to be heard as angry. I was just noting a common racial stereotype that is attributed to African-Americans. Some African-Americans are boisterous and often times can be misconstrued as angry when it is not. The gendered racism of the angry black man/woman was set in place long before I could even speak the English language. American novelist James Baldwin once said:


‘‘To be a Negro in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage almost all the time."

In Laurie Cassidy's article "The myth of the dangerous Black Man" she writes:

‘Indoctrination is what happens when someone is taught and fully accepts the ideas, opinions and beliefs about a particular group without weighing other viewpoints about that same group. That’s how implicit bias works. ’

Reference: https://www.panmacmillan.com/blogs/general/emmanuel-acho-myth-of-the-angry-black-man

I shouldn't have to educate you on this as my comment wasn't a means to go this in-depth as it was just an example.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Is it better if she won't say anything because no one will believe her anyway? Do you really want to take to the other direction? Why shame white women for being treated well? Is it that if everyone isn't treated that way they shouldn't be either? That's not how the world works. There is no equality or perfect justice. It's apparent you have some old bitterness to deal with. You shouldn't blame it on all white women.

Anything can be racist. It depends on the situation. Suffice to say, using such words shows a lack of sophistication and tact. Fat shaming is also distasteful.

I'm going to answer your posts and then I'm just going to block (first Muslim I ever had to block ever since being on here since 2013). To address the above you said:

"Is it better if she wont say anything because no one will believe her anyway?"

My response: The action of making complaints or calling for emergency services has to be justifiable for emergent situations. Calling the police because someone brings a BBQ grill to a park that restricts patrons from cooking there is not an emergent situation this is why you have park security for. By calling the police for something that is solvable, you are taking them away from a situation that could really use emergency services.

"Why shame white women for being treated well?"

Treated well? You mean shame white women for weaponizing their white privilege? Most certainly they needed to be shamed because historically some of these white women have used their privilege to sentence black men and even black women to death for a false allegation? Didn't you read the OP? I mentioned Emmett Till and the Tulsa Oklahoma Blackwallstreet incidents are prime examples of a white person committing a false allegation that costed the lives of innocent people.

"There is no equality or perfect justice"

Nobody said there was and in fact, I say the opposite because social disparities based on ethnicity still exists.

"It's apparent you have some old bitterness to deal with. You shouldn't blame it on all white women."

There is nothing to be bitter about. **mod edit** You want to argue just to argue with an indefensible point. There is quantifiable evidence that shows historically some white women have weaponized their victimhood to sentence people to death. In reality that is the gist of why the comical meme "Karen" came about because people of color have had to endure the false complaints of some white people who used their privilege to carry out inexcusable retribution against innocent people. I'm surprised you would even have the gall to argue this considering the Trump administration had demonized many Muslims for the behavior of those across the world. Apparently your selective outrage has blinded you.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

It's still wrong. And what if that someone ends up committing suicide?

Then they were troubled mentally before the incident. Nobody instantaneously kills themselves after one incident, there is developmental psychopathology that establishes itself in the mind prior to someone engaging in suicidal ideation.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I have no idea what I'm lookig at. Are women with phones behind everything that's wrong in the world? Did this woman cause this to happen? Are you accusing her of the former? If not then you shouldn't have posted her picture like this.

Jesus........

My point was to show you which picture is more detrimental to you.

The first picture shows Emmet Till. The one on the left is how he looked before the incident and on the right obviously, you know that is how he looked after the incident. I believe Till was about 14-years-old. A white woman falsely accused a 14-year-old kid of whistling at her. Two men J.W. Milam and his half brother Roy Bryant I believe Bryant was the husband of the white woman went to Emmett's uncles house and kidnapped Till. Similar to the cries of George Floyd Till was heard saying:

“Mama, please save me!”; “Please, God, don’t do it again!”

According to the reports they then beat the teenager brutally, dragged him to the bank of the Tallahatchie River, shot him in the head, tied him with barbed wire to a large metal fan, and shoved his mutilated body into the water. A kid that was 14-years-old falsely accused by a white woman. Both men were found innocent by a jury of THEIR peers. What is ironic about all this is the woman that accused Till Carolyn Bryant, admitted decades later that she lied. Of course she'll never be tried because she recently had passed away.

The middle picture is Emmett Till's mother. I posted that because like most humans with a soul, we can empathize and look upon the pain of a mother who for the last time is looking at the mutilated body of her son. That was the lasting burning image she sees in this world.

The third picture is of the woman who is on the phone with the police because a group of black men brought a barbecue grill at a park that strictly forbad the usage of grills. That is why I asked the question what is more deterimental if you looked at all three pictures?

 

[Revoltingest]

Now imagine if we created a name like 'Latisha' for black women that wanted to falsely blame their life's altercations on white people?

Perusing the thread, I wondered how soon someone would
make the illustrative analogy. It reminds me of criticism that
calling anyone a "thug" is racist because it's so often used to
describe violent black men. If it's wrong to use a race based
pejorative term against blacks, then it should be wrong to do
the same against anyone. Let's not justify racist epithets.

If we tolerate "Ken", should we tolerate "DeShawn"?
If we tolerate "Karen", should we tolerate "Shanice"?
Nah.
Be thankful that I didn't post some of the wonderful
videos to be found for what DeShawn & Shanice
do in stores & airports.

 

[Shakeel]

Some people naturally carry their voice and elevate the tone which may be perceived to be heard as angry. I was just noting a common racial stereotype that is attributed to African-Americans

It also applies to those who are middle Eastern, Russian, Greek or Italian. That's life.

I shouldn't have to educate you on this as my comment wasn't a means to go this in-depth as it was just an example.

I don't know about what? About racism? I know what it is. I just think you're obsessing over it. Do you think inviting hatred to the other direction will make things better? If you're truly unhappy where you are - sounds like it - consider moving.

I'm going to answer your posts and then I'm just going to block

Should I read them then and reply?.. I guess not.

 

[Revoltingest]

Making a joke about someone's name pales in comparison to making a false allegation that costs the life of an innocent person.

Is this to justify a wrongful act (ie, using racial & gender
epithets) by noting the existence of worse wrongful acts?

 

[Augustus]

Like I said in the other thread, you seem to like to disagree just to disagree.

If you actually read the post, you would see that it generally agrees with you, but also notes that regardless of this, it will have negative consequences

But pray tell who are the other "innocent" parties to whom I'm making any negative justifications for?

The women who are not 'Karens' but feel like the term makes it harder for them to raise legitimate complaints and have people take them seriously.

It is telling that 'Karens' get far more criticism than 'Kens', which is symptomatic of the traditional manner in which women are judged more harshly than men for the same behaviour.

So while any given individual usage of the term may not be sexist, the totality of its usage can reflect a societal bias against women.

Still on Wikipedia, the usages of the word Karen/Ken has been considered sexist which Hadley Freeman of The Guardian wrote that the usages of the meme had become less about describing behavior, than about controlling it and telling women to "shut up," (Freeman, 2020). Jennifer Weiner of the New York Times during the Covid-19 pandemic states that the influence of the meme had silenced her saying "she had had to balance her desire to complain about a nearby man coughing into the open air, hawking and spitting on the sidewalk, with her fear of being called a Karen (Weiner, 2020).

It does feel like that when you're called a Karen over requesting someone who isn't distanced or properly wearing a mask to back up.

I can understand the hesitation. Unfortunately, the social backlash is the result of abusing emergency services and making mountains out of molehills. The irony of it all is if I complain I'm the angry black man if the pitch or tone of my voice is slightly elevated.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

@Shadow Wolf I must be missing something here because I'm honestly seeing a disconnect here. The subject is about addressing the popular comical meme of "Karen/Ken" and addressing the question of whether it is considered pejorative. As I've already cited using the Wikipedia source, Karen is perceived (according to the website) as a pejorative label that is allocated to white women who are seen as exaggerating an issue that is clearly solvable by contacting the authorities. I've highlighted two events in time citing the earliest Karens who made false allegations that cost the lives of innocent African-Americans. One thing that irks me about this forum is some of the juvenile behavior that I see in grown a** people.

Look you don't like me? Cool. You don't like the topics I bring up? Cool. But don't come into my thread skim through my stuff and make indefensible opinions especially if you cannot even cite sources to substantiate your opinions. This subject is about some (I emphasize the word SOME) white women who weaponize their victimhood using "white fragility" to in turn cause victimization upon innocent people in a situation where two adults, not police, can solve. Although this is the debate section it is very few things on the subject that can be debated against. As you yourself mentioned how such a label can create hesitation. My response to that is that the history of women using their victimhood as a weapon by over-utilizing police services has created this stigma. But still there is a disconnect here.

 

[Revoltingest]

My response to that is that the history of women using their victimhood as a weapon by over-utilizing police services has created this stigma. But still there is a disconnect here.

One can discuss the problem without applying
labels that smack of racism & sexism.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The amount of racist and sexist apologetics in this thread reeks of regressive leftism and selective outrage. Using "Karen" as a pejorative for "loud"/"whiny" white women is far less harmful than using the N-word or similarly strong slurs, but it's still racist due to its stereotyping of white women and still sexist when used to shut down legitimate complaints from women.

I don't know what the point is in comparing different racist terms and trying to argue one of them is acceptable or trying to justify the sexist connotations it carries. People don't have to embrace anti-white racism and sexism for them to support black people's rights and oppose anti-black racism. Rhetoric like that in the OP seems to me mostly comprised of thinly veiled propaganda and prejudice rather than actual focus on social justice or equality.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Look you don't like me?

I've actually never felt that way. I do read and consider your posts, and find you one of the more rational, well reasoned, and grounded posters here.
But that doesn't mean I have to agree on everything and can't chime in on something that does seem askew.

But don't come into my thread skim through my stuff and make indefensible opinions especially if you cannot even cite sources to substantiate your opinions.

I have to cite when I asked someone to back up and was called a karen in context that does make "shut up, *****"?
That does happen. I was adding that to further the point made by the wiki article.
It shouldn't be an "oh well, but." Women have been controlled, one way or another, long before emergency services, long before American racial and ethnic tensions, even long before there was a Vatican.
The use of karen has become another way to say "shut up and learn your place, *****." And evolution of Paul's attitudes that demands women be seen and not heard amd is so hateful towards women he won't tolerate a woman usurping authority over a man.

 

[Augustus]

The subject is about addressing the popular comical meme of "Karen/Ken" and addressing the question of whether it is considered pejorative. As I've already cited using the Wikipedia source, Karen is perceived (according to the website) as a pejorative label that is allocated to white women who are seen as exaggerating an issue that is clearly solvable by contacting the authorities. I've highlighted two events in time citing the earliest Karens who made false allegations that cost the lives of innocent African-Americans.

Let's try again...

Yes, it is not as bad as the kind of things you mentioned. Yes there are women who make spurious complaints with potentially devastating consequences and these women deserve to be criticised. You are right about that.

The problem is these real 'Karens' likely couldn't give 2 ****s about being called a Karen because they are entitled and lack self-awareness. That is what makes them a 'Karen'.

The problem is that humans as a collective lack nuance and so for some the term becomes 'any white woman complaining', even if this is not the intended meaning of the meme. This has the effect of making some women feel they can't complain, even when it is justified (and this could have potentially serious consequences). The kind of woman who feels this way is one who cares about not being seen that way, which means they aren't the kind of woman being targeted by the meme. Even if they do complain, then it gives some people an excuse not to take them seriously as they are 'just a Karen'.

Maybe you don't care, but a 'comic meme' can have negative consequences for people even if these consequences are not intended.

If you understand the negative effects of the 'angry black man/woman' trope, you should be able to understand the negative effects of the Karen meme even if you don't think these negative effects are quite as bad.

Look you don't like me? Cool. You don't like the topics I bring up? Cool. But don't come into my thread skim through my stuff and make indefensible opinions especially if you cannot even cite sources to substantiate your opinions.

If that is aimed at me (as I definitely don't think it was aimed at SW) it was substantiated by the info I quoted from your OP of women noting it makes them feel uncomfortable making legitimate complaints.

Are you saying their lived experience doesn't matter? Women have been made uncomfortable speaking out for millennia after all.

Maybe it's your male privilege that makes you lack empathy.

One thing that irks me about this forum is some of the juvenile behavior that I see in grown a** people.

Like throwing a strop because someone made a perfectly reasonable point you didn't like regarding negative stereotypes having potentially negative unintended consequences for people who have done nothing to deserve it (and belong to a group who have faced historic and contemporary discrimination)?

If you think that is 'indefensible' and 'juvenile' that's on you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The problem is that humans as a collective lack nuance and so for some the term becomes 'any white woman complaining', even if this is not the intended meaning of the meme. This has the effect of making some women feel they can't complain, even when it is justified (and this could have potentially serious consequences). The kind of woman who feels this way is one who cares about not being seen that way, which means they aren't the kind of woman being targeted by the meme. Even if they do complain, then it gives some people an excuse not to take them seriously as they are 'just a Karen'.

Even before karen women have had to walk on eggshells to complain or be assertive. She'd often get called a *****, viewed as less feminine, and seen as problematic.
Now there is a "clean word" to use, but the use isn't clean and in context no different than calling a woman *****, whore, **** or other "dirty words." Karen is used by the SJW crowd, so it must be ok. But it's been relegated and equated to numerous other slurs that aren't even necessarily "bad words" that a censor would catch.
And yeah. You're very right. Entitled women (people in general) will twist and spin and gas light the world to preserve their innocence and project everyone else as being in the wrong. They don't care what you call them.
Leaving us with women who have yet another eggshell to walk on and navigate through lest we get the newest, latest method of woman control methods used against us for standing up for ourselves, being assertive, or complaining.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am reminded of Me Too, amd oceans and seas of accusations women (in general, regardless of color) are lying about this for fame and money, because they're vindictive, because they got into an argument with their boyfriends, she's on the rag, or whatever blowhole sexist excuse gets to assume women are widely lying about sexual assault.
Sure, false allegations do happen. The woman Emmett Till killed did confess on her deathbed.
But on the flip side we have Bill Cosby, and people think the women lied and he is the victim and it was "justice" that he doesn't have to serve the time for his crimes. Weinstein, Epstein, the women who came out against them had a very uphill battle. Clinton and Lewinsky? It's not Clinton bearing the jokes and rudeness and just not being allowed to live it down. It wasn't assualt, but clearly it's not a "womans world" like those who play up false allegations want to portray.

 

[Aštra’el]

A simple assault with a deadly weapon isn’t as harmful as mass murder, so let’s not be so hard on people who assault people with deadly weapons. At least it’s not mass murder.

I do not refer to people as “Karen”, unless that is their name. It’s messed up and I try not to behave like a hypocrite.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Now imagine if we created a name like 'Latisha' for black women that wanted to falsely blame their life's altercations on white people?

Already been done. Racial study that looks at jobs who hire based on names. Most people of that name you mention don't get hired versus people with my name which is "white-sounding." I know you think you're clever but research has already looked into it.