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Killing for apostacy is against Quran.
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mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
It wasn't addressed to me.
I don't have specific questions. I have general questions in regards to your world view.
Salam @Shakeel
I would say anything that goes out of it's way to disturb the peace and safety of people.
(1) Rape counts.
(2) Forced prostitution counts (those who force people to sexual labor)
However, I would say despite the moral corruption of prostitution, it doesn't count, since it doesn't disturb safety of the land.
So I will try to get ahadith that put everything in the category that is Fasadan fel arth.
I would say anything that goes out of it's way to disturb the peace and safety of people.
(1) Rape counts.
(2) Forced prostitution counts (those who force people to sexual labor)
However, I would say despite the moral corruption of prostitution, it doesn't count, since it doesn't disturb safety of the land.
So I will try to get ahadith that put everything in the category that is Fasadan fel arth.
firedragon
Veteran Member
No problem.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Al Fasadin fil ardh. Have you noted what the Qur'an says about those who commit it?
They are to be put to death.
firedragon
Veteran Member
No bro. I meant what the Quran speaks about them. Who are they?
The Quran gives an explicit example for us to reflect upon. Us, the readers.
And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing “corruption in the land” (Yufsidhoona fil ardhi), and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God” to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, and we will then say to his supporters: “We did not witness who murdered his family, and we are being truthful” – Quran 27:48-49
Read that verse again and focus on the few words within quotations. These two verses have the phrase “Al Fasadhin Fil Ardha”, both "corruption in the land" of which the example is "murdering in the name of God". They say to one another that they “Swear by God” about attacking and killing a family at night. This is taken as committing corruption in the land, which ironically is what we are doing. Our own God, in our own scripture says that he schemes against us.
And they schemed a scheme and we schemed a scheme, while they did not notice. – Quran 27:50
There’s More
Check the beginning of the Quran, Chapter 2:11. “Do not cause corruption in the land” (La thufsidhu fil ardha”. If you read the surrounding verses it goes like this
• There are people who claim to believe in God (Allah = Al-Ilah or The God)
• They seek to deceive God and those who believe
• They have a disease in their hearts
• When they are told not to cause “corruption in the land” they say “Nope, we have come as REFORMERS”
• But actually they are the corruptors.
• When they meet a believer they say we believe, but inside their hearts they do not.
• Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return.
Who is God talking about? It cannot be someone who claims to be a non-believer as said by most.
Same Surah, Chapter 2:11 says that it is those who has already pledged their allegiance to God, believers, who will cause corruption in the land (Yufsidhuna Fil Ardhi). If you read further you will see
“Among the people is he whose talk about worldly life impresses you, and he holds Allah witness to what is in his heart, though he is the staunchest of enemies. And if he were to wield authority, he would try to cause corruption in the land, and to ruin the crop and the stock, and Allah does not like corruption. – Quran 2:204-205
The corrupter's life impresses you. I am sure you cant put a Christian or a different sect into this category. They don’t impress you. It is your own who can impress you, but they are the enemy. And when he has power he will cause “corruption in the land” (Fil Ardhi liyufsidha fiha). Read the above verse again.
It is not those who call themselves Christian, Jew, Athiest or polytheist who are deemed here as against God, its those who pledge alliance with God, as in claim to be believers who fall into this category. Generally the reader if he is a Muslim he thinks, “Oh this is talking about others”, if he is a Christian he thinks “Oh this is about me”, Islam is a murderous religion.
No my brothers and sisters, read as a reader, as in first person. In terms of media science It is "one to one communication".
Going back to verses 27:48 and 49 it will clearly show you that those who cause corruption in the land are
• those who claim or pretend to believe,
• they swear by God (Allah) and murder people.
Their punishment is death.
And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing “corruption in the land” (Yufsidhoona fil ardhi), and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God” to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, and we will then say to his supporters: “We did not witness who murdered his family, and we are being truthful”
God has a nice parable to the “Corruptors of the land”. Read in the 2nd Surah of the Quran.
2:26 God does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: “What does God intend with this example?” He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
2:27 The ones who break the pledge to God after making its covenant, and they sever what God had ordered to be delivered, and they make corruption on the earth (Yufsidhuna Fil Ardha); these are the losers.
The parable of the mosquito or the Gnat is for those who cause corruption in the land. Wonder what the significance of that is!
• They suck blood
• Mosquitos are recognized as the deadliest creatures in the world. The anopheles kills approximately 1 million human beings a year.
Those who swear by God (Kalu thaka samu biullah) and without reforming murder people. They are the corruptors of the land. They are the ones who are defined in the verses. They pledge their will to God first, claim to be believers, you will be impressed by them, but when they wield power they corrupt and murder. This is their personality. Put the cap if it fits, or think for yourself who fits the cap. Most of all, read the book as if you are reading it for yourself. And especially if you are a person who claims to believe in the Quran (Reading), believes it is the Furqan (the criterion), then follow through with it. Shun those who causes corruption in the land, because they are doing in the name of God and Messenger.
If you read through the Quran carefully you will see that its clearly saying that it is corrupt individuals that commit Al Fasadhin FIl Ardha. People will even use the name of God, mention God to commit their murders. Thats because they are corrupt inside. Which is a clear indication that the motivation of the leaders as the Quran says “Yujibuka Kawluhoo”, that means “the speech of the leader impresses you”. This leader who is “Aladdhu Hisaami” or the the “staunchest enemy” (Quran 2:204) is the man who is taking you away from reality. He will use any tool at his disposal. Any belief system. Any kind of pain. The worst of them are the ones who use God himself as his tool. Kaaloo, thakaa, Samoa biullah. Death penalty to them.
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The general view of Muslims and their scholars historically, is that it's obligatory to kill the apostate. @firedragon and I are saying Quran does not permit it but actually forbids it. We are using different verses of Quran to prove it though.
Murder and killing people is in a category of Fasad Fel Arth for sure, but is it limited to that? I say there are other acts that disturb the safety in the land and corrupt it's peace, like rape, and kidnapping children for sexual work, stuff like that, should be met with death in my view.
firedragon
Veteran Member
There is nothing about apostates in the Quran. Zilch.
Also, the whole thread has been about "no killing anyone for anything other than murder" and that's punishment for murder. No apostate killing or killing for anything.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I understand what you say. But it is not explained that way in the Quran. Quran directly speaks of those who murder in the name of God. My whole post was about that.
I read your post, that's the main fasad fel arth, but the verse has "or" which shows there is more in the category than taking a life.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Not really. This apostate killing has come in and gone out during different times. So its not a general view historically, it is the view of some and others have rejected it, historically.
firedragon
Veteran Member
No bro. The verse doesn't have any "or" after al fasadhin fil ardh.
And nowhere in the Quran does it specify this designation, al fasadhin fil ardh to anyone other than that type of murder, of innocents, in the name of God. That is very very specific.
Other interpretations of Al Fasadhin Fil Ardh are personal assumptions based on the meaning of the word, not based on the Qurans explanation.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Brother. In the Quran we are told to always use our akal. Not Takleedh. So we dont need specific punishments for every single crime.
Anyway, for rape, its prison for life.
Where does Quran talk about rape for prison for life?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Sure it does. But that is exactly what I am talking about. You have taken the meaning and done your own assumption of the meaning of the sentence. The Quran gives it an explicit definition.
Nevertheless, as I said, rape is life imprisonment.
Using the punishment for murder and rape, if a child is kidnapped, I suppose assault would be considered rape, thus life imprisonment. Over and above that, it should be as we deem is appropriate as punishment. That is the usage of your Akal.