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Kissinger. Who he was.

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You know, there is a beautiful song from the sixties whose lyrics were imprinted in my memory...and are:

I went to the YouTube link and found the complete lyrics and ran them through Google Translate:

THERE WAS A BOY WHO LIKE ME, LOVED.....

An old song, old yes... but how current... how...

There was a boy
who like me
he loved the Beatles and the Rolling Stones
the world was spinning
He came from the United States of America

It wasn't nice
but next to him
he had a thousand women if
sang Help, Ticket to Ride,
or Lady Jane, or Yesterday,
Long live Freedom sang
but he received a letter
He gave me his guitar as a gift
he was recalled to America
Stop! With the Rolling Stones!
Stop! Stop with the Beatles!
Said Mhan goes to Vietnam
And shoot at the Viet Cong
tatatatatatatatata

There was a boy
Who like me
he loved the Beatles and the Rolling Stones
The world went around and then it ended
to wage war in Vietnam

Long hair
it doesn't bring you down
he doesn't play the guitar but
a tool
who always gives
the same note ta.ra.ta.ta
He has no more friends,
he no longer has fans,
he sees people falling down,
he will not return to his country,
he is now dead in Vietnam.

Stop! With the Rolling Stones!
Stop! With the Beatles, stop!
He no longer has a heart in his chest.
but two medals or three
tatatatatatatatatatatata

It's interesting that the artist mentions The Beatles and The Rolling Stones. As I recall, John Lennon returned his MBE due to Britain's involvement in Vietnam and Biafra. A lot of good protest songs came out of that decade.


So I believe that the Vietnam War was the most horrific war ever, because it forced many young Americans to go to die for a stupid geopolitical plan in South-East Asia

One of my closest friends during the 80s and 90s was a Vietnam Veteran. He was a Seabee (Construction Battalion in the Navy) and saw a lot of combat. He was quite the war hawk, actually, rather religious, socially conservative. He was a pretty good guy - very honest, decent, and scrupulous. He told me that he had been wounded and was recovering at a military hospital, when he had a dream where he was back with his unit in a firefight, and in the dream, he was shot and fell in the mud, feeling like he was near death. Then he found out later that his unit had been in a firefight and the situation and circumstances were exactly like in his dream - except he wasn't there when it happened. Most of the guys in his unit were killed. He believed that if he had been there, he would have been killed too.

I had great respect for him.

As for the war itself, there was a lot of vocal opposition, but there were also quite a few voices of support from people who honestly believed it was an honorable fight against Soviet expansionism. That's the thing - if you can rile up the masses into believing that they're dealing with Evil Incarnate, that practically gives the stewards of the state apparatus a virtual blank check to do whatever they want. The National Security Act, the creation of the CIA, NSA, with Hoover's FBI getting more and more powerful. I think the public tolerated it largely because the economy was getting better, the standard of living was improving, and people were able to get more trinkets and cool gadgets, like television. All the more reason to support a vigilant, militaristic government prepared and ready to defend our national interests - even if it's all the way across the sea in Southeast Asia. Or maybe closer to home, in Cuba, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Chile, Argentina, or wherever any communists or any of their supposed "fellow travelers" might crop up.

I don't take war or the scourges of the state lightly. Looking back, I know that some people try to come to terms and ask: What was it all for? What was it all about? When it comes to ulterior motives and possible conspiracy theories, I tend to be mostly agnostic about those things.

Another way of looking at it might be to question whether it was evil, in and of itself, to wage an ideological cold war on a global scale (and it still has lasting effects felt today), or was it just the way our side fought it?

Or (as some apologists might argue) was the enemy so irredeemably and intractably evil that we had no other choice but to be just as evil as they were? That's usually the standard line: "We don't want to go to war, we know it's bad, but the enemy gives us no other choice." Some of us roll our eyes and question the sincerity of those who express such sentiments, but then again, maybe they really do believe it. Regardless, I don't think it excuses anyone from having to answer for their own actions and their own crimes, including Kissinger.

I guess I just don't look at politics or history in that way. I'm not a lawyer, so I have no intention of prosecuting anyone or putting them on trial - even if they have committed crimes. I tend to look more at causes and effects and the ideological motives at work.

I suppose the biggest frustration of all is that, as a country, we never really seemed to learn anything from our own history. Not just that Kissinger, Nixon, McCarthy, Rockefeller, et al. were such horrible people, but the fact that we, the people, got suckered and hornswoggled by fear and paranoia. The people may not have known what the government and military were doing at the time, but they probably didn't want to know anyway. All they wanted to know was that their government was keeping them safe and protected from the communists.

It's really not that much different nowadays, except that the fall of the Soviet Union made it so that communism is not viewed as serious of an ideological threat as it once was. Russia and China have reverted more into nationalistic states, ostensibly abandoning any kind of internationalist agenda. We may have won the Cold War, but the seeds for further instability were planted in the aftermath. Even in the U.S., our government right now is in an absolute shambles - and people are looking forward to the next election with fear and trepidation.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Kissinger was a crafty individual, pulling the strings of the powerful affecting nations. And I don't mean this as a compliment.
 

libre

In flight
Staff member
Premium Member
As I mentioned in the other thread, Kissinger was just one person who was part of a regime and an ideological position which was (and still is) held by many Americans. Was he worse or more evil than Nixon, Dean Rusk, LBJ, McNamara, J. Edgar Hoover, Joe McCarthy, Barry Goldwater, Earl Warren, or any number of other people involved in the regime? Or what about the ideals they represented which were used to justify US military actions throughout the world - along with the people who believed in those ideals and propagated them and encouraged others to believe in them as well?

That doesn't get Kissinger off the hook, as I believe that history will look him objectively, but taking in the larger picture, the real problem is the ideology that he and millions of other Americans embraced and continue to embrace.
To McNamara's credit, he was someone open to admit his mistakes and transition to career in denuclearization.
Feels wrong to me to compare him to the others, but at the same time not a man I will miss.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
“Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević.”

— Anthony Bourdain
Worldly Justice sucks...
I mean, honestly I prefer Godly Justice because it's eternal, and the punishment is more excruciating.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
To McNamara's credit, he was someone open to admit his mistakes and transition to career in denuclearization.
Feels wrong to me to compare him to the others, but at the same time not a man I will miss.

I think the biggest mistake all of them made was in believing that they had to do anything at all. Granted, I think the lion's share of blame should fall mainly on the Presidents who made the ultimate decision (as well as the Congress).
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I think the biggest mistake all of them made was in believing that they had to do anything at all. Granted, I think the lion's share of blame should fall mainly on the Presidents who made the ultimate decision (as well as the Congress).
Wars need to have a purpose.
The Vietnam War had no purpose: so many American soldiers dead, and Vietnam conquered by Communists.

WW2 had a purpose, at least. To stop Nazi-Fascism.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It's 6.30 am...and I haven't slept a bit...
We have celebrated all night...you know...with sparkling wine and cakes.

;)

My political party and I.
 

Stonetree

Abducted Member
Premium Member
The Vietnam War was brought about by Americans who had an obsession with communism in the decades prior. The creation of the CIA, NSA, and a whole host of other policies (both domestic and foreign) came about due to mass paranoia about the USSR and communism. Basically, the Powers That Be in America embarked on a policy to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. That's what the Cold War was all about. Kissinger was just one of a plethora of Cold Warriors and cheerleaders for anti-communism.

Americans may not have been involved with the decisions made by Kissinger, but ultimately, most agreed with the ideology he used to justify his actions. If anyone believes that America's role is/was to "make the world safe for democracy," then I can't see how they can criticize the Vietnam War or the bombing of Cambodia. If one buys into the BS of the government, then they can't complain about how it tastes.
I recall the 'Domino Theory'. It was the fear that one by one other countries would fall to the Communist.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I recall the 'Domino Theory'. It was the fear that one by one other countries would fall to the Communist.
He received the Nobel Prize for Peace.
To be coherent you guys should give Stormy Daniels the Nobel Prize for Chastity and Virginity.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I recall the 'Domino Theory'. It was the fear that one by one other countries would fall to the Communist.

I think they feared that their governments would become Soviet puppets, although I think if we had just allowed them to become independent and choose their own government democratically, they would not have been. But then they wouldn't be our puppets either, and that's what was unacceptable to our government.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I think they feared that their governments would become Soviet puppets, although I think if we had just allowed them to become independent and choose their own government democratically, they would not have been. But then they wouldn't be our puppets either, and that's what was unacceptable to our government.
It was the Soviets who arrived in Berlin much before the Americans did.
It was the Soviets who made Hitler commit suicide and surrender.

I have always wondered: were the Americans fighting against us, or against the Soviets in WW2?

;)
I mean...we welcomed them and signed the armistice immediately.

Sometimes I think Hitler was maneuvered by some shady élites overseas to fight against the Soviets on America's behalf.
 
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Stonetree

Abducted Member
Premium Member
It was the Soviets who arrived in Berlin much before the Americans did.
It was the Soviets who made Hitler commit suicide and surrender.

I have always wondered: were the Americans fighting against us, or against the Soviets in WW2?

;)
I mean...we welcomed them and signed the armistice immediately.

Sometimes I think Hitler was maneuvered by some shady élites overseas to fight against the Soviets on America's behalf.
The story told here was that the Americans let the Soviets go into Berlin first
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The story told here was that the Americans let the Soviets go into Berlin first

It doesn't add up...I m sorry.
Because after the war, Americans and Soviets should have become great allies. And yet they became enemies for life.
Americans still hate Russians. Even today.

So I was just wondering: are we really sure that Soviets and Americans were allies in WW2?
Considering that some shady banking and financial élites living in America had some interests in Nazi Germany.
 

libre

In flight
Staff member
Premium Member
Sometimes I think Hitler was maneuvered by some shady élites overseas to fight against the Soviets on America's behalf.
The entire Western world thought Hitler was going to go East, that's why they 'appeased' (AKA collaborated) for so long. They loved Hitler when they thought it meant kicking the USSR in the pants.

Even some of the notable Communists made this mistake and were unable to see the coming breakdown in Western Europe. In 1931 Trotsky said "A victory of fascism in Germany would signify an inevitable war against the USSR. In fact, it would really be sheer political stupidity to believe that once they came into power, the German National Socialists would begin with a war against France, or even against Poland."

It's a funny quote for obvious reasons, but I do believe it is a useful reflection of the public opinion in Europe at the time, and a testament to the political sharpness of those who saw the split coming.
 

Stonetree

Abducted Member
Premium Member
It doesn't add up...I m sorry.
Because after the war, Americans and Soviets should have become great allies. And yet they became enemies for life.
Americans still hate Russians. Even today.

So I was just wondering: are we really sure that Soviets and Americans were allies in WW2?
Considering that some shady banking and financial élites living in America had some interests in Nazi Germany.
I'm not debating, I'm just filling in information that I am aware of. The Americans and Russians were allies of convenience. It was common knowledge that after the war there would be a problem between the US and Soviets.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I'm not debating, I'm just filling in information that I am aware of. The Americans and Russians were allies of convenience. It was common knowledge that after the war there would be a problem between the US and Soviets.
They have never been allies.

It's paradoxical that now Germany and the Axis are the US's staunchest allies, whereas Russians, the defeaters of Nazism, are America's enemies.
It doesn't add up.
 

Stonetree

Abducted Member
Premium Member
The entire Western world thought Hitler was going to go East, that's why they 'appeased' (AKA collaborated) for so long. They loved Hitler when they thought it meant kicking the USSR in the pants.

Even some of the notable Communists made this mistake and were unable to see the coming breakdown in Western Europe. In 1931 Trotsky said "A victory of fascism in Germany would signify an inevitable war against the USSR. In fact, it would really be sheer political stupidity to believe that once they came into power, the German National Socialists would begin with a war against France, or even against Poland."

It's a funny quote for obvious reasons, but I do believe it is a useful reflection of the public opinion in Europe at the time, and a testament to the political sharpness of those who saw the split coming.
Don't forget the agreement between Stalin and Hitler that Hitler would not attack Russia.
 

libre

In flight
Staff member
Premium Member
Russians, the defeaters of Nazism, are America's enemies.
Don't say the truth too loud around yankees and canucks, it might upset them.

Fox news tell them that the Americans and English liberated Auschwitz, and unfortunately many are too unfamiliar with the history to question.
 

Stonetree

Abducted Member
Premium Member
They have never been allies.

It's paradoxical that now Germany and the Axis are the US's staunchest allies, whereas Russians, the defeaters of Nazism, are America's enemies.
It doesn't add up.
US supplied Russia with the Cobra fighter and other munitions so the Russians could upgrade their own military.( I have my own problems here, take care)
 
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